For those who believe in predestination. What was the point of christ's ministry?

[fbl9]

And both sides also have the problem that God knows the future and who will and will not be saved. So even those who deny predistination have the problem of God’s foreknowledge and man’s free will.

i seen you jump off a tall building i know you are going to go splat when you hit the ground.
Did me knowing you were going to go splat cause you to go splat?

God’s foreknowledge is not a problem.
What of the rebilous angels? Did God knowing what they were going to do made them do it?
If God allowed the angels to rebel what of us?

 

[KathleenGee]

When we immediately look at the word, predestination, we automatically look at the word from a human standpoint, that everything was decided by God and there is nothing we can do, and that is hopeless.

God destined for all of us to be saved.

God ‘walks with us’ as Jesus did on His last visitation before His glorious ascension into heaven. We are truly given a free will, and reflecting on salvation history there are those of people of faith who told God to leave them alone. There were those in Christian history who likewise did not want to be part of more mysterious level of understanding…but they evolved.

God is all knowing. But He has given us free will. We can pray and do penance and shorten the consequences of our sin in the world.

We can choose to deny God and be lost.

But His plan for us is that He wants all of us saved with Him in heaven and to await a new heaven and earth. This is Catholic understanding of predestination.

 

[East_Anglican]

If God has only predestined some, what did Jesus mean by the world?

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

 

[Taestron]

If God has only predestined some, what did Jesus mean by the world?

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

I think that God desires all men to be saved. But we must balance this desire with the other evidence, namely that “all who He predestined, He called…, and all who He justified, He glorified.” (Romans 8:30) So if we don’t hold to that all people are saved, then we must conclude that there are those whom God did not predestine.

 

[KathleenGee]

Just reading this passage of S. John…I don’t see any inference to God predestinating anyone to up or down…

Also, in reference to St. Thomas Aquinas and S. Augustine…no single saint can be the true source of who decides to go to heaven or not, who is predestined or not.

The Catholic answer to salvation in our universal catechism that states that all are called to salvation, we are given free will, and that every person in the world has the ability through reason and observing nature (Romans), that we have a creator.

I have come across pagan people who treat their neighbor as their self and are very honest and good. That is the acceptance of grace that comes to a person when they choose to be good or not.

 

[CyberAngel]

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned and do need the glory of God.

Rom 3:12 All have turned out of the way: they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good, there is not so much as one.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

*Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, that no man may glory. *

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son: that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren.
Rom 8:30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Maybe it goes like this:
God knows who will accept Jesus
Those are then predestined

I don’t think that our will changes God’s omnipotent power
Look at all the evil in the world…
Yes - we have free will

I think that it is co-operative with God

 

[KathleenGee]

CyberAngel…

Good follow up…when I read the passages, I think of those who went to battle the ancient Jews of the Old Testament…and I think of Abel and Cain…there is a working of grace there…

The passage given us by St. John, who was Christ’s beloved apostle, and young and not jaded by life experiences, saw the very essence of Jesus: Love. He rested himself on Christ’s breast…

We have to look at the language of predestination in the context that God gave His only beloved Son for our salvation and new life.

And John Paul II also refers to who is open to grace and who is not…as a mystery of God, how even in a single household with all being given the same upbringing…there are those who are built on good soil and those who build themselves on dark soil.

God blesses all of us, all of mankind, and His Providence comes to all mankind. His sun and rain shine and pour on all the peoples of the world, He shows mercy to all.

We have to understand Scripture through the interpreter of the Holy Spirit found in the Church. If we believed in a human understanding of predestination, there would be no use to have faith, hope or love.

So we must remember the purpose of Our Lord, to be atonement for sin, and to extend His presence of mercy, hope, healing, and renewal to everyone.

I just heard on the radio this morning that He is not interested in our perfection, but in our progression in becoming closer to Him on our journey through this world.