For those who deny Mary's perpetual virginity...

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CHESTERTONRULES said:
That’s says nothing about John the apostle being the nephew of Mary the Mother of Jesus other than “some conjecture”. It is clearly not Catholic teaching.
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Well Catholics are the ones that have told me this, or I would not have known. It is the belief of many Catholics.

aug.edu/augusta/iconography/goldenLegend/maryNativity.htm#holyKinship
aug.edu/augusta/iconography/salome.html
saints.sqpn.com/saintm73.htm

I have found plenty of Catholic sources. It is a little t tradition possibly
And the point remains that other closer relatives were available
 
If I may, what Todd is saying here about the “purported brothers” is entirely OK by Catholic standards, indeed, it agrees with Catholic interpretation and understanding of scripture.

He is being attacked unjustly on that score, in my view.

Alex
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
There is a difference between cousins and brothers. You are avoiding the point for some reason.

Why would Mary go live with John if she had other children?
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Chesterton, I think you can’t read or are baiting. Let me repeat the logic

The disciples mentioned in the bible were either Christ’s brothers or Cousins (point of debate)
I said these Cousins/brothers would be poor caretakers of Mary since they were destined to travel and teach the gospel (and die as martyrs)

What is not clear to you?
Do you dispute that the apostles traveled and taught the gospel after Jesus died?
Do you see how Jesus might not trust his mother to someone heading off to wander the land, teaching?
 
Rightlydivide said:
Well Catholics are the ones that have told me this, or I would not have known. It is the belief of many Catholics.

aug.edu/augusta/iconography/goldenLegend/maryNativity.htm#holyKinship
aug.edu/augusta/iconography/salome.html
saints.sqpn.com/saintm73.htm

I have found plenty of Catholic sources. It is a little t tradition possibly
And the point remains that other closer relatives were available
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Rather than a little t tradition, I think it qualifies as a little t theory! 🙂

It was new to me, however, so I have learned something!
 
Todd520 said:
Chesterton, I think you can’t read or are baiting. Let me repeat the logic

The disciples mentioned in the bible were either Christ’s brothers or Cousins (point of debate)
I said these Cousins/brothers would be poor caretakers of Mary since they were destined to travel and teach the gospel (and die as martyrs)

What is not clear to you?
Do you dispute that the apostles traveled and taught the gospel after Jesus died?
Do you see how Jesus might not trust his mother to someone heading off to wander the land, teaching?
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Are you unaware that John was a travelling apostle?

I think you have failed on this line of debate. Your point is clear, it is just wild, unsubstantiated conjecture.
 
Alexander_Roman said:
If I may, what Todd is saying here about the “purported brothers” is entirely OK by Catholic standards, indeed, it agrees with Catholic interpretation and understanding of scripture.

He is being attacked unjustly on that score, in my view.

Alex
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I may have been unclear, but that was not the point of contention.

The point of contention is that the apostle John was one of these “purported brothers.”
 
Why did Mary not live with her brother in law, sister, or her nieces or nephews?
According to your view, she went to live with a non family member when plenty of familiy was available.
Why?
 
Todd,

Who are out travelling and teaching? Mormons believed the Church ended with the death of the last apostle. So there were others?..did they then indeed set up better churches that were good? I don’t know how to define that.

But if you are implying that followers of Jesus were out travelling, you are indeed conjecturing…

The apostles fled in fear at the crucifixion. Only St. John, the virgin, was there at the cross. If Mary had children, and they grew up with Jesus, and they would have absorbed some sense of heroic faith and virtue,-- they would have been at the cross as well. But there were no blood relatives. And it wasn’t the time to go travelling.

Jesus’ mission wasn’t accomplished at the Cross. There are parts of His message that weren’t clear yet. So what in the world were the followers doing and what in the world were they preaching??? It was only days before Christ’s death that the apostles were becoming aware of His forthcoming crucifixion.

And those followers were likely those who turned away from Christ when He spoke of eating His flesh and blood before the Last Supper.

It was the Holy Spirit Who confirmed the Apostles and their followers in truth and spirit at Pentecost…40 days after the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord, and His glorious ascension into heaven.

Then the Lord’s mission was done on this earth. And then it was the beginning of the Holy Spirit in the new mission of building Christ’s church!
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
I may have been unclear, but that was not the point of contention.

The point of contention is that the apostle John was one of these “purported brothers.”
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Not a problem sir! Any friend of “Blessed Chesterton” . . . 🙂

I was in Ephesus and visited the grave of St John the Apostle. This was where he had lived with the Mother of Jesus (the Syriac Christians refer to John as the “Son of Mary” by adoption of course).

The Eastern Church celebrates John the Apostle as having been bodily taken to heaven as well. When Christians assemble at his grave for liturgy, a gentle breeze will often pick up sparkling specks of dust and envelope everyone there.

His closeness to both Jesus and Mary had everything to do, of course, with his spiritual purity and holiness as the “Beloved Disciple, the Disciple of Love.” His closeness to Christ’s Heart at the Last Supper is also a theme on which the Eastern Church liturgy meditates on his feastday. It was his spiritual relation to them that made him the prime choice to serve as the Mother of God’s protector. And by giving His Mother to John, Christ gave her also to us. We are called to take her home with us so that she may nurture us, the Body of Christ as members of His Church, and to benefit from her spiritual intercession to help form in us the full stature of Jesus Christ. “Whatever He tells you to do, do it!”

For me, Mary’s perpetual virginity confirms her unique role as Mother of Jesus and, at the same time, shows her to be the spiritual mother of us all as members of Christ’s Body which is the Catholic Church as she continues to nurture us as such. A spiritually fruitful and holy virginity indeed. John, like we, found Mary as his Mother at the foot of the Cross.

Alex
 
Alexander_Roman said:
Not a problem sir! Any friend of “Blessed Chesterton” . . . 🙂

I was in Ephesus and visited the grave of St John the Apostle. This was where he had lived with the Mother of Jesus (the Syriac Christians refer to John as the “Son of Mary” by adoption of course).

The Eastern Church celebrates John the Apostle as having been bodily taken to heaven as well. When Christians assemble at his grave for liturgy, a gentle breeze will often pick up sparkling specks of dust and envelope everyone there.

His closeness to both Jesus and Mary had everything to do, of course, with his spiritual purity and holiness as the “Beloved Disciple, the Disciple of Love.” His closeness to Christ’s Heart at the Last Supper is also a theme on which the Eastern Church liturgy meditates on his feastday. It was his spiritual relation to them that made him the prime choice to serve as the Mother of God’s protector. And by giving His Mother to John, Christ gave her also to us. We are called to take her home with us so that she may nurture us, the Body of Christ as members of His Church, and to benefit from her spiritual intercession to help form in us the full stature of Jesus Christ. “Whatever He tells you to do, do it!”

For me, Mary’s perpetual virginity confirms her unique role as Mother of Jesus and, at the same time, shows her to be the spiritual mother of us all as members of Christ’s Body which is the Catholic Church as she continues to nurture us as such. A spiritually fruitful and holy virginity indeed.

Alex
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Thanks for posting this. I have only recently become aware of the great devotion to John that is found in the eastern churches. I have much to learn about John and his followers.
 
Alex,

The crux of the answer is just that…Mary had a unique role more than any other creature and being perpetual virgin mirrored her great mission.
 
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