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Seaumas
Guest
First of all, I’ve never met or even heard of anyone, not even the Church’s most vaunted Doctors, knowing all of The Church’s teachings; This includes the Commandments, Beatitudes, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, the Councils at Nicaea, all the Papal Bulls, Ex Cathera edicts, Vatican I and II, the writings of Aquinus, St. Ambrose and all the others about and including all the interpretations, amplifications, nullifications, edicts, predicates, dictates and the Official Vatican cookbook. Of course, if someone wants to claim he or she believes in ALL Church teachings and interferes with no one else’s opinions or claims, no matter how obstruse, then what is the use of worrying?
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Seaumas
Guest
“Don’t tell me what you don’t believe in; That’s too vast.”- Brother Dave Gardner.First of all, I’ve never met or even heard of anyone, not even the Church’s most vaunted Doctors, knowing all of The Church’s teachings; This includes the Commandments, Beatitudes, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, the Councils at Nicaea, all the Papal Bulls, Ex Cathera edicts, Vatican I and II, the writings of Aquinus, St. Ambrose and all the others about and including all the interpretations, amplifications, nullifications, edicts, predicates, dictates and the Official Vatican cookbook. Of course, if someone wants to claim he or she believes in ALL Church teachings and interferes with no one else’s opinions or claims, no matter how obstruse, then what is the use of worrying?
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A_Catholic
Guest
*Saint Thomas Aquinas, of all people, … says if a Catholic comes to believe the Church is in error in some essential, officially defined doctrine, it is a mortal sin against conscience, a sin of hypocrisy, for him to remain in the Church and call himself a Catholic, but only a venial sin against knowledge for him to leave the Church in honest but partly culpable error. (Source) *
I like much of what Peter Kreeft has to say and write, but this is a hard one for me to accept. I wish he had provided the exact quote from St. Thomas Aquinas. I’ve tried googling it but can’t find anything like this. So I’m very reluctant to accept what Kreeft has written here. To be a Catholic, you must accept the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ, given the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and therefore infallible in her teachings on faith and morals.
Although priests, bishops and other members of the Church can err in Church teaching, the official teachings of the Church as given to us by the Holy Father can never be in error. If one is truly searching for the truth, I can’t believe that the Holy Spirit, our comforter and guide, would allow us to leave the only Church where the fullness of the truth can be found. We don’t see any examples of this in the saints down through church history.
I really need to see the exact quote and context from St. Thomas Aquinas before I could even begin to accept this statement.
I like much of what Peter Kreeft has to say and write, but this is a hard one for me to accept. I wish he had provided the exact quote from St. Thomas Aquinas. I’ve tried googling it but can’t find anything like this. So I’m very reluctant to accept what Kreeft has written here. To be a Catholic, you must accept the fact that the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ, given the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, and therefore infallible in her teachings on faith and morals.
Although priests, bishops and other members of the Church can err in Church teaching, the official teachings of the Church as given to us by the Holy Father can never be in error. If one is truly searching for the truth, I can’t believe that the Holy Spirit, our comforter and guide, would allow us to leave the only Church where the fullness of the truth can be found. We don’t see any examples of this in the saints down through church history.
I really need to see the exact quote and context from St. Thomas Aquinas before I could even begin to accept this statement.
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JRKH
Guest
First of all I like what “A Catholic” says above about wanting a more direct source. It appears that Mr Kreeft is not directly quoting Aquinas as there are no quotation marks used.so this appears to be a summary or a paraphrasing of Aquinas - and without footnote in the article…
That said…Let’s consider the statement proposed.
First, I think that the point at which one would need to leave the church over some teaching depends to a certain point on the relative strength of their conviction in their own infallibility. So the question can become one of Pride vs Humility in the matter of what they believe is true or false in an essential Church teaching. The prideful person declares understanding, “rejects” and then is vocal about it. The humble person seeks greater understanding, withholds judgement and is quiet about it, except to propose why he is troubled and to ask for additional explanation. The prideful person refuses to accept, while the humble person is unable to accept. The prideful person has a closed mind, while the humble person has an open mind.
Thus the person who actively rejects Church teaching needs to leave because their Pride forces them out. The Humble person would leave only reluctantly.
Second, is the matter of the gravity of “sin” involved. Again this comes less from the matter of belief and more a matter of “pride”. The more pride is involved, the greater the gravity of the sin.
The quoted statement is true in so far as the person involved is honest, truly humble, seeks to understand and cannot bring themselves to accept a teaching in spite of their best efforts and desire to do so.
I’m not sure if I’m making sense here…My thoughts are kind of confused…
Peace
James
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Zundrah
Guest
Does not compute… does not compute…
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Zundrah
Guest
How will I know if something is a “essentially, defined doctrine” or not?
So is it more respectful to yourself and others that you leave?
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rhiannonh
Guest
So therefore one cannot work through a teaching and gain in faith once accepted.
back to the old duty line again I see…
am so glad am in the anglican church where I can learn and grow through love for what I read on here does not inspire me to become Roman Catholic at all:shrug: not that I ever wanted to - but.
back to the old duty line again I see…
am so glad am in the anglican church where I can learn and grow through love for what I read on here does not inspire me to become Roman Catholic at all:shrug: not that I ever wanted to - but.
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Zundrah
Guest
It seems like there is so much additional but essential literature in Catholicism. It tends to make something that should be so easy actually appear to be very complex. It reminds me of the years spent in university before an occupation can be dreamed of.So therefore one cannot work through a teaching and gain in faith once accepted.
back to the old duty line again I see…
am so glad am in the anglican church where I can learn and grow through love for what I read on here does not inspire me to become Roman Catholic at all:shrug: not that I ever wanted to - but.
I wonder how long it would take for a person to have read everything written by he Catholic Church regarding its doctrines etc
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Bookcat
Guest
An great reading from Pope Benedict XVI (continue reading after the first paragraph)
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html
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Zundrah
Guest
That should help out, thanks.
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Bookcat
Guest
Do not miss this…
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Bookcat
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As it has been said…it is shallow enough that a small child can play…and has its depths that an elephant can swim!
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Zundrah
Guest
I’ve not heard that before but it sounds fitting.
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A_Catholic
Guest
I think your post makes a lot of sense. As you wrote: “I think that the point at which one would need to leave the church over some teaching depends to a certain point on the relative strength of their conviction in their own infallibility.” EXACTLY. Do we really feel we know better than Holy Mother Church, founded by Jesus Christ? No matter what problems are going on in the church, as the apostle Peter, our first pope, said to Christ, where else can we go? There’s the church – one, holy, catholic and apostolic - and then there’s everything else. No matter what her problems, I’m staying with the Catholic church.
If it is okay to leave the church because you disgree with her teachings, as Peter Kreeft implies in this statement, then why was Martin Luther condemned as a heretic? He was very open and honest with his disagreements, even literally posting them.
I really do have a problem with this statement by Peter Kreeft.
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JRKH
Guest
I have to say that, for me, I can’t find any footing outside of the Church. I mean - How can I leave the Church but still embrace the Bible which points to the Church? If I reject the Bible how can I continue to accept Jesus…I mean I know that a lot of people seem to have found a way to mix and match - but it’s not for me…
I would be very careful about trying to express what Peter Kreeft is “implying”. It is far better to read a statement carefully and see what it actually says. Then - accept or reject it on that basis and not on what it might or might not “imply”.
As to the matter of Martin Luther…If you notice in my posting, which you replied so graciously to, I speak of pride. Of a person firmly and vocally rejecting a teaching. In other words, in Martin Luther’s case, it was not just a matter of his having problems with the teaching(s), it was the fact that he was so vocal about it.
I agree that Mr Kreeft’s statement is troubling and it is one that can be easily misunderstood, but I also think that there is much in it to ponder.
Hope this helps a little
Peace
James
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A_Catholic
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Point taken about implying things that are not actually said.
And you are absolutely right that Luther’s biggest problem was that he was so vocal about his disagreements. He actually did have some valid points to make because there were problems in the church at the time. But by going so public with his doubts, he became heretical.
We can all have questions and doubts at time. That is not sinful. What is sinful is how we deal with them, and certainly we should never drag other people into it. We should speak with someone in authority and not try to cast doubt into the minds of others.
And I still appreciate your original point - are we somehow implying our own infallibility if we should make the decision to leave the church.
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Lamafacaja
Guest
Safia: that’s right. If any of her defined doctrines are false, then the Church is false. It can only stand to figure. How can it be any other way? In as much as she claims not to teach error. But her doctrines are all true.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Things like this always baffle me.
I’m a reasonably well educated guy. I have read the works of historians and philosophers and theologians for decades, and still do…almost every night.
And, whenever I am presented with some critique of the Church or some part of doctrine, I still think “Who am I to reinvent the wheel?” Somewhere in the tomes of the writings there is a perfectly good answer to the question. My task is to find it, not to assume I’m somehow smarter than, e.g., St. Thomas Aquinas or Augustine or Maritain or Pope Benedict, who is indisputably more knowledgeable than I am, despite all my efforts.
And does the Holy Spirit guide me more inerrantly than the Pope? One would have to be extrarodinarily full of oneself to think so.
At some point, one simply has to acknowledge that he is not a prophet; that he is properly a listener in sacred matters, not an “inventor”. Those who invent their own theologies are, in my opinion, prideful fools.
I’m a reasonably well educated guy. I have read the works of historians and philosophers and theologians for decades, and still do…almost every night.
And, whenever I am presented with some critique of the Church or some part of doctrine, I still think “Who am I to reinvent the wheel?” Somewhere in the tomes of the writings there is a perfectly good answer to the question. My task is to find it, not to assume I’m somehow smarter than, e.g., St. Thomas Aquinas or Augustine or Maritain or Pope Benedict, who is indisputably more knowledgeable than I am, despite all my efforts.
And does the Holy Spirit guide me more inerrantly than the Pope? One would have to be extrarodinarily full of oneself to think so.
At some point, one simply has to acknowledge that he is not a prophet; that he is properly a listener in sacred matters, not an “inventor”. Those who invent their own theologies are, in my opinion, prideful fools.
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Sirach2
Guest
Safia, your OP simply records the alleged statement as having been made by Peter Kreeft, which it truly was written in his book. Have you read the entire context of the statement? Or did you possibly run into it by hearsay from another source?
Nevertheless, it is to run into a host of errors by not understanding the author’s intent. Here is the following context as found in Kreeft’s book. Among a few possibilites after making the comment in your OP, this was the conclusion.
Of course, we do not always hear that voice right. Our consciences can err. That is why the first obligation we have, in conscience is to form our conscience by seeking the truth, especially the truth about whether this God has revealed to us clear moral maps (Scripture and Church). If so, whenever our conscience seems to tell us to disobey those maps, it is not working properly, and we can know that by conscience itself, if only we remember that conscience is more than just immediate feeling.
You see, therefore, that St. Thomas and Peter Kreeft were NOT advising anyone to leave the Church, but rather, to inform their consciences according to Truth.
Nevertheless, it is to run into a host of errors by not understanding the author’s intent. Here is the following context as found in Kreeft’s book. Among a few possibilites after making the comment in your OP, this was the conclusion.
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Of course, we do not always hear that voice right. Our consciences can err. That is why the first obligation we have, in conscience is to form our conscience by seeking the truth, especially the truth about whether this God has revealed to us clear moral maps (Scripture and Church). If so, whenever our conscience seems to tell us to disobey those maps, it is not working properly, and we can know that by conscience itself, if only we remember that conscience is more than just immediate feeling.
You see, therefore, that St. Thomas and Peter Kreeft were NOT advising anyone to leave the Church, but rather, to inform their consciences according to Truth.
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