For those who remember when the EF was the only form

[Sarabande]

I thing GangGreen probably has the best answer. The demographics at an EF Mass today is a world away from the demographics before Vat. II.

Mind you I was 12 or 13 and I can only talk about what I experienced in one rural parish in Atlantic Canada.

In my own parish men routinely left the church during the sermon to go out on the steps to smoke and chat.
**
Kids were better behaved. Why? Because most parents didn’t start bringing them to Mass until they were 4 or 5, an age when you can reason with them. An infant in church was a novelty. ** Not to mention that, in most homes, parents weren’t particularly concerned about their little darlings being able to ‘express themselves’. There was an expectation of good behaviour and the line between good church behaviour and bad church behaviour was pretty thin. My father perfected the art of the Ninja knee squeeze - a form of discipline that left no doubt that he was upset at our behaviour (which could be just fidgeting) but that was unnoticed by other adults around us.

Yes, many spent Mass saying their rosary. We never experienced a dialog Mass so only if you had a Missal could you really follow what was going on. Missals were too expensive for most people to afford so they prayed the rosary. My own parents didn’t have Missals, I followed in my aunt’s when I went with her and the thing I wanted more than any other book was a Missal in the black zippered binding with the little cross zipper pull. By the time I was old enough there were missalettes every Sunday and no need for a big Missal any more.

OTOH, you could hear a pin drop in church even when there was a crowd. I remember how it pained many to have to actually talk in church when the new Mass came into effect and we had to participate in the dialogue and the acclamations. They felt that was so wrong. They were pleased to be able to hear Mass in their mother tongue or at least in their second language, but they didn’t want to do something that for so long they’d considered ‘wrong’.

Thank you for relaying your experience, especially what was bolded. There was another thread SMHW and I were a part of regarding behavior of children at mass and the topic of parents not bringing young children and babies to mass prior to the mid 60s or so came up. Of course, as you mentioned after the bolded, there was a different expectation of behaviour back then, but people also did not seem to bring their younger children to mass before a certain age, either. So, it makes sense that children were better behaved. The younger ones who were still learning to behave weren’t there and the older ones had learned by then. And like you said and also according to my grandmother, babies were a novelty at mass. Even when my grandparents brought their first baby to mass, the priests not saying the mass were actually watching the baby in the sacristy or outside rather than have him INSIDE the church. I was born after VatII, so I can’t add anything additional to SMHW’s original question.

Funny that you mention the ninja squeeze. My mother had what we called the “Filipino Pinch”. All of the Filipina mothers we knew did the same quick pinch whenever we were doing something that was not appropriate. No one but you and your mother would know that the stinging pinch was made. If we didn’t straighten up after the pinch, God help us when we got home. lol!

 

[Phemie]

Thank you for relaying your experience, especially what was bolded. There was another thread SMHW and I were a part of regarding behavior of children at mass and the topic of parents not bringing young children and babies to mass prior to the mid 60s or so came up. Of course, as you mentioned after the bolded, there was a different expectation of behaviour back then, but people also did not seem to bring their younger children to mass before a certain age, either. So, it makes sense that children were better behaved. The younger ones who were still learning to behave weren’t there and the older ones had learned by then. And like you said and also according to my grandmother, babies were a novelty at mass. Even when my grandparents brought their first baby to mass, the priests not saying the mass were actually watching the baby in the sacristy or outside rather than have him INSIDE the church. I was born after VatII, so I can’t add anything additional to SMHW’s original question.

Funny that you mention the ninja squeeze. My mother had what we called the “Filipino Pinch”. All of the Filipina mothers we knew did the same quick pinch whenever we were doing something that was not appropriate. No one but you and your mother would know that the stinging pinch was made. If we didn’t straighten up after the pinch, God help us when we got home. lol!

My parents went to different Masses or our cousins babysat us until we were all at least 3 or 4. For a while two of us would go with Dad and Mom stayed home with the youngest. The first memory I have of being at church was a Good Friday service. My memories of Mass are later when I was in school.

When DD was born Mom was amazed that I was taking her to Mass with me from the time I was able to go back (and sit). I’d have her in the Snugli and she usually napped. I had to explain that since DH worked shifts it was either take DD with me or, since there were no cousins conveniently willing to babysit for a cigarette or two, stay home and that the second was simply not an option as far as I was concerned.

Re. the ninja squeeze, I was surprised to read on a military brat forum that they thought the ninja squeeze was a typical military parent thing. Had to inform them that my parents had never been anywhere near the military but had it perfected.

 

[odile53]

I still don’t think you will get any kind of really useful answers because many of those who attended the EF pre-1964 and attend the EF now have a highly romanticized view of the Mass pre-1964 and tend to have some tunnel vision about it. I have read posts where people claim the Mass was longer than the OF (unless it was a solemn high Mass it was not), where people never left Mass early (wrong again), where the priests gave better and more meaningful homilies (my recollection is that they talked a lot more about money and spent more time yelling at people), where people never talked in Church, and children were perfectly behaved. Plus they were more attentive to the Mass–wrong again. They said their Rosaries a lot. Or you have those who have a distorted view of how awful it was to go to Mass in Latin, how boring it was, etc.

So I don’t think much can be proved by people’s opinions, even mine

I want to start this post as a disclaimer: These are observations of mine. They are not to be construed in any way as a lack of reverence for any form of the Mass. I personally love the EF Mass, especially when it is celebrated beautifully. I also love the OF Mass. What’s not to love about ANY Mass? That is the Real Presence of Jesus there.

But you specifically asked about how people behaved way back when, before Vatican II, when wooly mammoths roamed the earth.

You have to look at the name of our Church–the Catholic Church. It means universal. Which means–“here comes everybody!” The saints-in-the-making, the sinners (all of us,) the pious, the hung-over, the still drunk from the night before. Everybody. And that is exactly what you had at Mass back in those days. People were generally more careful about making sure they went to Mass, even the ones who were still a little tipsy from Saturday night (I’m not kidding here, I distinctly recall frequently smelling alcohol in the communion line when I went to the grown-ups’ Mass in an effort to avoid the nuns who patrolled the Children’s Mass.) And when we moved to the city, I was generally the designated Mass-goer from my family–my parents, although they professed to be devout Catholics, frequently missed Mass and sent me to church with the family envelope.

Yes, you basically had a mixed bag of Catholics attending the pre-VII Mass, same way you have a mixed bag attending the Ordinary Form Mass nowadays. I personally remember hearing people snoring during the canon, people walking from the communion rail after receiving communion, hands folded and straight out the door to beat the rush of traffic at the end of Mass, which, remember, finishes with the Gospel of John reading and the prayers after Mass, all the rosary-praying people, the building fund sermons and the yelling homilies, and worst of all, priests with horrible singing/chanting voices offering High Mass. We Catholics just went to Mass, same as we do nowadays. We did see people more dressed up for church, but society in general dressed more formally and modestly (although it wasn’t unusual to see women with their hair in curlers and a scarf tied over it maybe in the supermarket.) If a parish had a convent attached to it for the running of the school, a few of the Sisters were present at Mass, particularly the Children’s Mass (homilies more oriented toward yelling and no building fund homilies, simpler hymns in English,) and the good Sisters provided “crowd control.” That’s why kids didn’t make noise at Mass: Most of the kids went to the Children’s Mass, and with the good Sisters patrolling about, you’d get your knuckles rapped if you did! If nuns were to do that nowadays, they would probably get reported to child protective services.

Most of the weekend schedule were Low Masses (spoken, again, simpler hymns in English,) and were about five to ten minutes shorter than a High Mass.

And we’d have priests that would race through the Latin as if they were going for the land speed record, or had a tee time half an hour after Mass (the latter was usually the most common reason.) We would occasionally have a priest who celebrated with more emphasis on pronunciation and intonation, and so that added to the length of the Mass.

One of the priests who used to celebrate the EF in our diocese when the EF Mass became available in the '90s again was one of the land speed record guys. Even though I was reading along in my missal, I literally couldn’t keep up with him. The two priests who have replaced him are more careful in how they actually pronounce the Latin, so it does give the impression of more reverence. The other priest almost sounded like an auctioneer.

What I’ve noticed nowadays at the EF Mass is that it is the people in the congregation who seem more reverent and attentive (people dress up a little more, I haven’t heard any snoring, or any rosary beads clattering against pew backs.) Nobody sneaks out after communion, either. Perhaps it is because the people who go to an EF Mass actually *want *to be there, appreciate the opportunity, and don’t want to lose that opportunity.

 

[hazcompat]

no

peace

 

[malphono]

I suspect many people aren’t actually reading the OP or don’t understand the nature of the question.

This post has nothing whatsoever to do with comparing the EF and OF, so I don’t understand the need for the popcorn eater smileys.

The question is whether the now-known-as “EF” Masses are more reverent than they were before the intra- and post-Conciliar changes began to be promulgated, so about Advent 1964-ish. The question is, I think, very legitimate, because many people say that this form of Mass is now celebrated more reverently than it was when it was the only form of the Roman Rite, because now a priest has to want to celebrate it in order to celebrate it.

I don’t know if this is true or not–I wasn’t there–so we need first-hand experience to corroborate this theory (or not).

I actually think it’s generally true (but by no means universally so) that Masses according to the Usus Antiquior now are celebrated more attentively and properly (I really don’t like using the word “reverent” because to me it’s far too subjective) for exactly the reason highlighted above: those who offer it now do so willingly, and volition plus internal disposition does make a difference.

To clarify a bit, many (I’d say most) clergy did indeed celebrate willingly in the “old days” with proper attention and disposition. At the same time, though, it’s true that there were those who were a bit “sloppy” in their demeanor and execution.

 

[Mariem2]

My memory is much as described by others. The congregation was a mixed bag. Pre-school age children didn’t attend and infants at Mass were frowned upon. Children were better behaved - but they were better behaved generally, not just in Church. Ours was a small parish church and there were no traffic problems so I don’t know why people left early but they did. As far as I can remember (and I’m open to correction), the “obligation” was met if you were present for the Epistle, Gospel, Offertory, Consecration and Priest’s Communion, so leaving early was just a venial sin.

The main difference between then and now is that with the Latin Mass the congregation were more like spectators whereas nowadays we are participants. I suppose that with the Latin Mass everthing was exactly the same throughout the world…great for anyone travelling to foreign countries but in those days very few could afford holidays. The Latin hymns were nice and we all knew the words because we had learned them in school. We also understood the Gloria and the Lord’s Prayer. Older parishioners didn’t because most had left school at a very young age. We also had Benediction more often. I liked Benediction.

The back pews always fillled up first, much to the chagrin of the priests. The main reason was that there had been a tradition (discontinued a few years before my time) whereby there was a specific minimum contribution expected from anyone entering by the door near the altar, and a man stood at the door holding the collection plate, so there was no sneaking past him. Everyone else entered through the back door. Old habits die hard and people just got used to sitting at the back.

We had a priest nicknamed “Fr. Flash” because he could say Mass in about 20 minutes. He didn’t always give a sermon and when he did it was very short. Our priests weren’t the type to shout at us. Sermons were given from the pulpit but it was hit and miss whether we could hear them since there was no microphone.

Hard to tell, sometimes, whether people mean piety when they talk about reverence. Either description makes me feel uncomfortable because one thing I remember is that there were more sanctimonious types to be seen then. Then as now, there were very good Catholics, bad Catholics and run of the mill Catholics. I doubt very much that vestments, language, or hymns make all that much difference. It was Holy Mass then and it’s still Holy Mass.

 

[SMHW]

… line when I went to the grown-ups’ Mass in an effort to avoid the nuns who patrolled the Children’s Mass.

…my parents …] sent me to church with the family envelope.

If a parish had a convent attached to it for the running of the school, a few of the Sisters were present at Mass, particularly the Children’s Mass …] and the good Sisters provided “crowd control.”

I’m curious about the children’s Mass. Were these typically JUST children? Or did parents attend with their children? I ask because I’m wondering about how children got to Mass if it they attended without family. Did they walk/ride bicycles alone? Did family drop them off/put them on the bus? I imagine that it depended a lot on whether the parish was in the city, suburbs, or rural area.
I’ve heard that it was common for children to sit with their schoolmates and teachers rather than with parents even if they attended the same Mass.

 

[malphono]

I’m curious about the children’s Mass. Were these typically JUST children? Or did parents attend with their children? I ask because I’m wondering about how children got to Mass if it they attended without family. Did they walk/ride bicycles alone? Did family drop them off/put them on the bus? I imagine that it depended a lot on whether the parish was in the city, suburbs, or rural area.
I’ve heard that it was common for children to sit with their schoolmates and teachers rather than with parents even if they attended the same Mass.

Yes, it had a lot to do with location. Where the church was walking distance, school children would do just that. Same if it was “bicycling distance” (assuming, of course, that the kids had bikes).

In one parish that I’m familiar with, there was an 8:30am Mass that was, from 1958 at least, a Missa Recitata (aka “Dialogue Mass”) which was the designated “school Mass” although it was not obligatory except on rare occasions: school children were normally exempted if they attended a different Mass with parents. Yes, there would normally be several Sisters present to keep order. And yes, if the parents were there, the children would be seated with their classmates, in the front half of the church. Although not many adults were “regulars,” parents and other adults would be in the rear half. There was, as I recall, (and my memory is a little fuzzy here), rarely anything sung, except perhaps, at the Offertory and maybe during communion, and that by the school Glee Club, under the direction of Sister X.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m curious about the children’s Mass. Were these typically JUST children? Or did parents attend with their children? I ask because I’m wondering about how children got to Mass if it they attended without family. **Did they walk/ride bicycles alone? **

Actually, yes. Most parking lots in the cities (I lived in London and Chicago) were small if existent at all. If you drove, you’d end up parking far away from the church and walking anyway. And in my parish there were Masses scheduled on the hour every hour on Sunday mornings so it wasn’t like families needed to go to Church together. Those within my family seldom did.

And it seemed parish life was a little more vibrant too. Yes, bingo games were common, but one was almost expected to join the Altar Guild, Knights of Columbus, Rosary club, a bridge club, making novenas or something along those lines. Sunday Mass was a minimum requirement.

 

[Phemie]

While we never had a Mass that was specifically a ‘children’s Mass’ in our rural parish, during Lent and Advent you would find kids at the 8 a.m. daily Mass. We walked or biked along a highway to get there, bringing our breakfast with us to eat at school afterwards.

The only time we sat with classmates was when we attended Mass as a class. That usually involved special liturgies for specific school events, not a regularly scheduled Mass.

 

[CB_Catholic]

We had Mass 3 or 4 times a week in my parochial grade school. You went to school, attendance was taken, then went to Mass. Daily Mass parishoners attended also and of course the Sisters, who probably spent more time policing the kids than paying attention to what was going on at the altar.

On Monday mornings when I was in 4th or 5th grade I remember having to write down what the sermon was about at Sunday Mass, so the teacher could see if you were paying attention. If you had not attended Mass or got it wrong, you were punished. The problem was that my grandparents with whom I lived were not always the best of churchgoers, so if Grandpa, who was the only one who drove, didn’t feel like going to church, we didn’t go. So often I would hitch a ride with my Aunt and Uncle if I could, or walk, but the church was 2 or 3 miles away. I must admit I went some Sundays soley out of fear of being punished by not knowing the sermon.

I don’t recall that lasting too long, though, there must have been some parental objections to the practice. I recall my rather hot-tempered Italian Grandmother making a few scenes at the school, and this might have been one of the things she squawked about. She feared neither Nun or Priest.

Yeah, I don’t recall things particularly more “reverent” in those days. But I don’t think it had much to do with the form of the Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

On Monday mornings when I was in 4th or 5th grade I remember having to write down what the sermon was about at Sunday Mass, so the teacher could see if you were paying attention. If you had not attended Mass or got it wrong, you were punished.

LOL!!! If they made that a requirement when I was in school, I’d be so nervous and anxious about making sure I knew the sermon that I’d never pay attention to the first part of the mass and I’d bring a notebook and pencil to try to write down verbatim what the priest said. I hated to get punished.

 

[SMHW]

We had Mass 3 or 4 times a week in my parochial grade school. You went to school, attendance was taken, then went to Mass. Daily Mass parishoners attended also and of course the Sisters, who probably spent more time policing the kids than paying attention to what was going on at the altar.
.
.
.
Yeah, I don’t recall things particularly more “reverent” in those days. But I don’t think it had much to do with the form of the Mass.

I really have no memory of Masses before 1963 or 1964 so I can’t really comment much on the way things used to be. Vatican II was ending as I was starting school and while I remember a couple of years where we still had some Latin Masses (always dialog) many changes were already being implemented.

During my first two or three years of Catholic school we went to Mass every day. Then the school started to add a second class for each of the grades which soon resulted in the Church being too small to accommodate all of the students at once. After that we switched to attending Mass once a week.

We never had any Sunday children’s Masses where students sat together. Perhaps that was because it wasn’t practical since so many families lived more than five miles away and the roads were not friendly to pedestrians.

 

[allhers]

My answer to this OP question, Noooooo

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Those of you who are old enough to remember when Latin was the only language permissible for the Latin Church…

Do you think that today’s Extraordinary Form is generally more reverent than Mass was prior to 1964?

Yes & No.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I don’t remember Mass before Vatican II, but I am old enough that I wasn’t taken to Mass as a baby - we always had relatives or someone who could watch me.

I will say though that based on what my parents and aunts and uncles have said, it was as others described. The Mass said then was the “ordinary form” and the priests and the people behaved much as priests and people do now at the ordinary form. Some are very respectful, devout, and well-behaved; some are not.

Dress was more formal generally and everyone had “company manners” that they used when away from home, so no one was chewing gum or chatting in the sanctuary, but that wasn’t necessarily because they were any more devout or religious then.

I think what we see now is because of self-selection by the people who attend the EF and the priests who offer it. The sense that they are doing something special and especially reverant (however it is defined), means that the people who attend are more likely to behave themselves as if they are at a special event.

Here is an interesting example from this area. We (my family) was observing First Fridays and were looking for an evening Mass. We started going to a parish that offered the EF on First Fridays. It was a lovely Mass and the small congregation were all very attentive and devout. (We knew several others personally even though this wasn’t our parish, so I will say that these people really were attentive and devout and didn’t just appear that way).

We later learned that another parish also offered an evening First Friday Mass and so decided to attend to “check it out”. This was an OF Mass. Also lovely, very correct, excellent homily and absolutely no abuses. Interestingly enough, the parish also offered confession before Mass and Benediction after. The congregation at those Masses was larger (still not a full church), and they were also attentive and devout. (We knew several of these people also and again can attest to their faith).

Of course, anyone who regularly attends a Friday night Mass is very likely going to be devout. Certainly the size of the congregations were nowhere near what those parishes have at a regular Sunday morning Mass. My point is that someone who choses to attend special Masses and practice additional devotions is more likely to be devout and orthodox than someone who doesn’t regularly do that.

Getting back to EF Masses today - it is the same. The EF Mass doesn’t *make *one more devout. Those who are already more devout - or who have a goal to become more devout - are more likely to seek out a special experience for Mass or devotions, whether that is the EF or the OF celebrated in an abbey or by a particularly devout priest. My favorite priests in this area are all Opus Dei for example.

 

[msokeefe]

My Dad was born in 1942, was an alter boy, went to Catholic school. At one point he led the other alter boys on strike because they were dissatisfied with their earnings at weddings, etc. He also was beaten by a Brother, so my Dad threw him over a desk. He was kicked out due to that I believe. One time his friends who were also alter boys went to confession, his friend was giving his confession when all of a sudden the Priest yelled "You did what!!! My Dad never found out what his friend did. I guess you might say my Dad was incorrigible. I guess that is why he became a NYC cop.

The good old days were not apparently perfect, but they were good old days.

 

[odile53]

You have to remember that in cities and townships, there were a lot more Catholic churches than there are nowadays, same as there were more schools. So it wasn’t at all difficult to walk or ride one’s bike to Mass on Sundays if you lived in a city or a larger town. Although kids learned not to talk to strangers at an early age, it was still a much safer world. Nowadays, you’d probably get charged with neglect if you let a kid walk two or three city blocks by themselves. Suburban sprawl and Vatican II were pretty simultaneous; before the early '60’s, suburbs were smaller or were separate towns.

Parishes were neighborhood parishes, and frequently were less than a square mile in size, especially in the cities. If your parents accompanied you, they sat in the back, with the other adults, and you sat up front with the other school children. Generally speaking, most children didn’t go to Mass on Sundays until they were about four years old or so. Babies and toddlers were a rare sight in church, and parents went to different Masses to provide child care coverage for each other.

 

[Joannm]

I didn’t attend Mass until I started 1st grade and then it was the 9 am Sunday school mass. No parents allowed. We walked to church and had to sit with our class. The nuns kept order with the clicker or a quick slap in the back of the head (mostly on boys). It was a dialogue mass and we said the responses.

 

[Vico]

Those of you who are old enough to remember when Latin was the only language permissible for the Latin Church…

Do you think that today’s Extraordinary Form is generally more reverent than Mass was prior to 1964?

No, it seems to be the same. I lived through these forms, and was an altar server using Latin until 1965, and then continued in English:

Pope Benedict XV in 1920.
Pope Pius XII in 1955. (includes revised Holy Week and calendar changes)
Pope John XXIII in 1962. (became the Extraordinary Form)
(Vatican II 1962-1965)
Orders for Missal changes March 1965 (vernacular, option to face congregation).
Communion under both kinds 1965.
Second instruction 1967 (English canon, simpler rubrics)
Additional anaphora 1968
Pope Paul VI Ordinary Form on March 22, 1970.

I was granted a transfer to the Byzantine Catholic Church later.