For those who wonder why TLM is not at every parish..

[ScapularDude]

This is the Catholic Church, not the Eastern Orthodox Church. We don’t just let reactionary laypeople ascend to the top of the clerical hierarchy.

Of course. I wasn’t being serious.

 

[rwoehmke]

We wonder the same thing about the Traditional Latin Mass and how it can be denigrated so much by modern Catholics, most of whom have never heard of it before or understand what differentiates it from the NO Mass.

As a side note, I’ve never been to a Traditional Mass, but I’ve seen recordings of them, and read the text of the Traditional Missal, so even without that firsthand experience I can see what the pro-TLM crowd is talking about - and I grew up in a highly-conservative NO parish where the NO Mass was said with unquestionable matter and form and intent.

I went to the traditional Mass for more than 30 years and I would never want to go back. We had an assistant pastor for the past year who was a second vocation kind of guy( ordained at about age 60.) His celebration of the OF was a beautiful experience, no ad-libs, jokes, etc.;really stuck to the rubrics. A strong contrast to our current pastor who says Mass like he was the Ring Master in a circus. The music still sucks, but that is another matter. I would like to see the music from the Oregon outfit burned at dawn.

As for verbal abuses, they are readily picked up in the language of the OF, but only discernible for the most part to the altar boys who knew their stuff in the days before the revolution. There were abuses, perhaps not as bold as some of the merde we are exposed to today.

 

[archangel04]

First, may I ask for links to You-tube and/or threads here at CAF where ANYONE has denigrated the TLM? If there is such a thing, it can be counted on one hand. .

examiner.com/x-53647-Catholic-Examiner~y2010m7d9-South-African-Bishop-attacks-Latin-Mass-Traditional-Youth-Papal-Leadership

 

[Sirach2]

Geesh, that one link didn’t even get to my ring finger on one hand, but thank you anyway. You surely don’t want to see the number from TLM-ers, do you? I don’t think we have enough bandwidth.

I’m not here to argue. In fact, I’ve had my stomach full of it, much to the detriment of peace and serenity of spirit. My only comment is that God is here witnessing every single post, every word, every slander of his ministers. If anyone dares to continue to affront His Christs, though Our Lord has forbidden it, then it is the Lord who will convict that person’s heart.

I only posted to bring awareness to those who have no regard for the gossip and denigration of clerics as they believe somehow that detraction, even if true, excuses them from bringing another’s failing before the entire community. The presentation by Michael Voris was full of insolent scoffing using specifically chosen language and raucous inflections of voice in expressing it. It deeply scandalizes me that anyone would applaud this person who stated that the clergy of the OF “doggedly don’t want to share center stage with Jesus.”

[Is this what you meant by “truth” Archangel04?] uch:

 

[ProVobis]

I’ve seen the “real?” catholic website mentioned in other posts, and I believe Michael is causing much harm and division with his reactionary statements. The other day on EWTN, Ray Guarendi commented that there are 300,000 masses celebrated PER DAY in the universal church.

Yes, but take away communion and how many would attend them?

 

[DWC_RC]

Did Christ not tell us that the Holy Spirit would be with His Church until the end of the age? Did he not place Peter at the head of the Church for a reason? Rome has spoken, the Mass has been changed.

 

[excelsus]

Did Christ not tell us that the Holy Spirit would be with His Church until the end of the age? Did he not place Peter at the head of the Church for a reason? Rome has spoken, the Mass has been changed.

sanctamissa.org/en/resources/summorum-pontificum.html

Rome has spoken, the Mass has returned.

 

[archangel04]

Geesh, that one link didn’t even get to my ring finger on one hand, but thank you anyway. You surely don’t want to see the number from TLM-ers, do you? I don’t think we have enough bandwidth.

I’m not here to argue. In fact, I’ve had my stomach full of it, much to the detriment of peace and serenity of spirit. My only comment is that God is here witnessing every single post, every word, every slander of his ministers. If anyone dares to continue to affront His Christs, though Our Lord has forbidden it, then it is the Lord who will convict that person’s heart.

I only posted to bring awareness to those who have no regard for the gossip and denigration of clerics as they believe somehow that detraction, even if true, excuses them from bringing another’s failing before the entire community. The presentation by Michael Voris was full of insolent scoffing using specifically chosen language and raucous inflections of voice in expressing it. It deeply scandalizes me that anyone would applaud this person who stated that the clergy of the OF “doggedly don’t want to share center stage with Jesus.”

[Is this what you meant by "truth

" Archangel04?] uch:
Look I am not attacking the OF at all! I grew in it and served for 10 years as an altar server. For about two months I’ve attended the EF and I finally feel at peace where I can worship with REVERENCE, not because “it makes me feel good”. The EF has also made me appreciate the OF much more, and I realize what people who attend the OF have, but yet don’t recognize its greatness. I don’t attack the OF, I disagree with any abuses, or anything added/taken away from the rubrics of the OF. I feel the EF should be available in every parish if possible, but not to replace the OF.

 

[archangel04]

Did Christ not tell us that the Holy Spirit would be with His Church until the end of the age? Did he not place Peter at the head of the Church for a reason? Rome has spoken, the Mass has been changed.

Yeah you are right Rome has spoken and JP2 allowed the EF mass to be celebreaited, but bishops who ignored Peter blocked the mass from being celebrated. Now B16 has allowed the Church’s priest to celebrate the EF, so yeah my friend you are right Rome has spoken and the we the mass is able to be celbrated according to how Rome has spoken.

 

[archangel04]

Geesh, that one link didn’t even get to my ring finger on one hand, but thank you anyway. You surely don’t want to see the number from TLM-ers, do you? I don’t think we have enough bandwidth.

I’m not here to argue. In fact, I’ve had my stomach full of it, much to the detriment of peace and serenity of spirit. My only comment is that God is here witnessing every single post, every word, every slander of his ministers. If anyone dares to continue to affront His Christs, though Our Lord has forbidden it, then it is the Lord who will convict that person’s heart.

I only posted to bring awareness to those who have no regard for the gossip and denigration of clerics as they believe somehow that detraction, even if true, excuses them from bringing another’s failing before the entire community. The presentation by Michael Voris was full of insolent scoffing using specifically chosen language and raucous inflections of voice in expressing it. It deeply scandalizes me that anyone would applaud this person who stated that the clergy of the OF “doggedly don’t want to share center stage with Jesus.”

[Is this what you meant by "truth

" Archangel04?] uch:

Also the truth I was talking about was on the bishops who did not allow the EF to be celebrated, even though there were communities who wanted to be part of the EF mass. Before 2007 only less than 10 parishes in the US celebrated the EF and no they were not any of the big name cathedrals, now over 100 parishes celebrate it, yet I’ve yet to see any big name cathedral celebrate this mass.

 

[DWC_RC]

Yeah you are right Rome has spoken and JP2 allowed the EF mass to be celebreaited, but bishops who ignored Peter blocked the mass from being celebrated. Now B16 has allowed the Church’s priest to celebrate the EF, so yeah my friend you are right Rome has spoken and the we the mass is able to be celbrated according to how Rome has spoken.

I’m with you. Whatever Rome says, we are to follow. I’m excited about the new missal. I also believe whatever comes from the chair of Peter is legit.

 

[bkovacs]

Michael Voris once again tells the truth yeah buddy

realcatholictv.com/share/watch.php?vidID=vort-2010-07-08

I agree 100% with everything that has been said in this marvelous video:thumbsup:.

 

[MarkThompson]

I agree 100% with everything that has been said in this marvelous video:thumbsup:.

So, you prefer the term “Extraordinary minister of the Eucharist” to the official term “Extraordinary minister of Holy Communion”? I thought the priest was the only minister of the Eucharist.

 

[archangel04]

So, you prefer the term “Extraordinary minister of the Eucharist” to the official term “Extraordinary minister of Holy Communion”? I thought the priest was the only minister of the Eucharist.

You are a very detail person, I like that

 

[MarkThompson]

You are a very detail person, I like that

I just want people to think critically about Michael Voris (and other things, too!). He says a lot of stuff I agree with, but often backed up with flawed rationales or meaningless bluster. I actually think he’s a pretty poor advocate for the traditional cause, since the type of people to go “Right on! Tell it, brother! ” are the ones who will already agree with him.

Maybe it’s an issue of the three-minute webcast format with the little words that he flashes up there, I don’t know what it is with him. Although I thought his claims about Amazing Grace in the other video that I think you linked to were made him look simply uneducated and out of his league, and obviously this one had its mistakes too.

I guess I just like helping people learn to separate “I like what it is he’s arguing for” from “I agree with his arguments.” Voris just doesn’t seem to bring very much of the latter to the table sometimes.

 

[WetCatechumen]

Of course. I wasn’t being serious.

I was being totally serious.

 

[Indyann]

I just want people to think critically about Michael Voris (and other things, too!). He says a lot of stuff I agree with, but often backed up with flawed rationales or meaningless bluster. I actually think he’s a pretty poor advocate for the traditional cause, since the type of people to go “Right on! Tell it, brother! ” are the ones who will already agree with him.

Maybe it’s an issue of the three-minute webcast format with the little words that he flashes up there, I don’t know what it is with him. Although I thought his claims about Amazing Grace in the other video that I think you linked to were made him look simply uneducated and out of his league, and obviously this one had its mistakes too.

I guess I just like helping people learn to separate “I like what it is he’s arguing for” from “I agree with his arguments.” Voris just doesn’t seem to bring very much of the latter to the table sometimes.

I see him as a cross between Bill O’Riley and Rush Lindbaugh.

He has the twirling pencil prop ala O’Riley. But when O’Riley doesn’t have his facts correct, he issues an apology and corrects his mistakes.

He has the hyperbole of Rush. So even though he may or may not be correct, I find it hard to get past his generalities and his bristly manner.

 

[rben20]

I guess I just like helping people learn to separate “I like what it is he’s arguing for” from “I agree with his arguments.” Voris just doesn’t seem to bring very much of the latter to the table sometimes.

What kind of evidence do you want him to put up in a 5 minute video? He backs his claims enough with his rationale I believe. Be skeptical but come on, he’s helping the Church by showing everything isn’t hunky dory as some see. I certainly feel the Faith is on its way to restoration and returning (not forgetting) the traditional practices of what makes the Catholic Faith uniquely Catholic is a major step in helping that.

If you want more thought out charges to satisfy you, look at his C.I.A. videos. Voris is a great Catholic doing a wonderful service to us all. The vortex is only a small part of his media.

 

[archangel04]

I just want people to think critically about Michael Voris (and other things, too!). He says a lot of stuff I agree with, but often backed up with flawed rationales or meaningless bluster. I actually think he’s a pretty poor advocate for the traditional cause, since the type of people to go “Right on! Tell it, brother! ” are the ones who will already agree with him.

Maybe it’s an issue of the three-minute webcast format with the little words that he flashes up there, I don’t know what it is with him. Although I thought his claims about Amazing Grace in the other video that I think you linked to were made him look simply uneducated and out of his league, and obviously this one had its mistakes too.

I guess I just like helping people learn to separate “I like what it is he’s arguing for” from “I agree with his arguments.” Voris just doesn’t seem to bring very much of the latter to the table sometimes.

Well I can agree to some degree with you and I agree somewhat on what you say on the video of amazing grace, but the Vortix is more of an opinion series, the News series on the other hand, is very well done. He also does a great job on the apologetics videos, very educational, and always with evidence to back up on what is thought. Maybe you are right about him when it comes to advocating for the traditional movement, but he has helped out a lot with bringing out some of the scandals of the USCCB when they were supporting many organizations who promoted, or supported abortion in some way or another, and always had the evidence to back it up.

 

[Sirach2]

Dear Freddy (OP),

When you joined a few short months ago, you were a faithful altar boy having served ten years in the Ordinary Form liturgy, and knew nothing whatsoever about the TLM, per your initial posts here. In this brief period, you have now given up independent learning and crossed over to the “group think” herd mentality that shouts “crucify them.” In your own words, “Yeah, Buddy!” I have a few questions for you, using the arguments of Mr. Voris.

• Did you ever find your service as an altar boy objectionable because your beloved pastor held “free wheeling parties in the sanctuary” … perhaps using “clowns?”
• Did you notice that your pastor, whom I presume you respected and revered, “doggedly did not want to share center stage with Jesus?”

Has it occurred to you that Mr. Voris has made you liable for the sin of rash judgment in believing his false accusations against the bishops and clergy, and cooperating in the sin of another by spreading the calumny via this forum? Think about it!

His words, “the Bishops made up silly excuses about why the TLM should not be said and ‘smiled nicely’ and threw the pope’s directive in the circular file.” Pretty strong accusations, no? Let’s consider.

In my area, many churches have been closed due to lack of priests, and the parishes have become partner parishes with a single pastor having to serve mass at two churches in a weekend. One of the partner parishes has abolished their Saturday evening vigil mass, and has only one mass for the entire church on Sunday morning. The other parish has cut the Sunday liturgy to one only besides the Saturday night vigil.

Now the directive from the Pope regarding the TLM states that, although there is the freedom to celebrate without the permission of the bishop, the pastor cannot substitute it for the regular Sunday Ordinary Form and must celebrate the regular liturgy for the people. So …. which of the ONE Sunday masses would you suggest the bishop allow for the TLM? If the priest were to advertise in the bulletin (required) that the Saturday vigil is going to be TLM, and 25 people loyal to that liturgy attend, where would there be pews enough to support the entire parish the next morning at their ONE mass? As for the partner parish that is without a Saturday vigil and only one mass on Sunday, they will never be in a position to offer the TLM. Period.

Do you begin to see how abhorrent it is to paint this sweeping characterization of all bishops as simply being arbitrary and unwilling to listen to the pope? I pray you will learn to do independent thinking and sort out these sorry attempts to besmirch the church’s ministers with these falsehoods.