For Tom, on prayer to Mary/Saints

[centuri0n]

My apologies for losing the thread in which this response belongs. I just can’t find your post, but here’s my response:​

Tom:

O.K. this is going to be long, this is a wonderful example of an anti-Catholic.

That’s what I thought – listing theological objections is inherently “anti-Catholic” to you folks – in spite of the fact that “Anti-Catholicism” is irrational hatred which seeks political consequences against Catholics for being Catholic.

First of all yes we, or at least I, do pray to Mary.

OK – that’s all you had to say. The problem with the rest of what you said is that “I pray to Mary” is not the same thing as “I consider Mary to be Blessed”. Having appropriate reverence for Mary is not the same thing as bowing down to her. As for the mention of Revelation, it is too bad posts are limited to 5000 characters. I’d live to walk through the passages that you think say we should offer prayers and worship to Mary in Revelation.

Calling Mary and the saints “dead people” is inflammatory as well as untrue.

That is so sadly un-Catholic in the CCC sense of being Catholic that refuting it seems like a waste of time. I am not denying either a life after death nor am I denying the resurrection: I am denying that those who have passed from the mortal life that ends in death ought to be prayed to. The practice of doing so is called necromancy and idoltray by the OT. Has that changed?

Did Jesus meet with two “dead people” in the garden during the transfiguration? You seem to conveniently forget that Scripture says He is a God of the living, not the dead. Is Moses a “dead person”?

And you want to call me “anti-Catholic” – when you know that this is an equivocation on both the Protestant view of life after death and what Christ was affirming when he called God the God of the living?

Mary, as each of the saints, acts as an intecessor.

That’s fine – if you want to pray to God as an intercessor. That’s what intercession is: praying to God. But when one starts advocating to pray to X to pray to God so God will hear … it’s simply a distortion of what is being done. To equate someone in a group of Christians asking the group to pray for their sick child with bowing one’s head in prayer to pray (you said it was prayer, not some lesser form of communication) to a dead person to intercede … it’s such a sad dismissal of context and circumstance that I simply can’t offer a rebuttal – not seriously. You have to be joking. Talking to a dead saint is exactly like talking to the person in the pew next to you? Who is denying effect and result of the resurrection – the one who says that these people are just like us, or the person who says that someday we will see them when we are like them?

… more to follow …

 

[centuri0n]

… continued from previous …

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Tom:

We ask her to pray for us, to intercede for us. You don’t have to search hard in the NT to see Jesus performing His first miracle at the request (intercession) of Mary. This is a wonderful gift our Lord has given us.

Again, your example is far off the point of the question(s) I have asked. The question is not whether Christ listens to prayers: it is whether we should pray to Christ or to some person who has died.

All I can say to this is read the Scripture again, with an open heart.

While the topic of insults is on the table, there is nothing more insulting than a Catholic sneering at a Protestant to read the Scriptures with “an open heart”. I have directed you to Scripture where it explicitly condemns what you do, and you have simply sniffed passed it to things which you think purifies a practice the Bible calls an abomination to God. Why should your admonishments about my “open heart” carry any weight in that circumstance?

There is not one book of Scripture that does not contain intercession.

There are ZERO books of the Bible in which a person who prays to anyone but God fails to be punished.

God uses people, saints, angels, for intercession. To deny the gift that God gives you is to deny God Himself.

That is to say, all of these pray to God – which I would not deny. The problem comes from praying to someone or something other than God.

Mary is not God, no Catholic believes she is.

Think about this: I didn’t say you considered her to be God. I said that you were praying to someone who was not God. I didn’t say you were calling her God: I said you were giving something to her which belongs only to God. Where’s that open-hearted reading skill?

She is a wonderful example of how our love for Jesus should be. As far as an example, she is the perfect example. I can not be as perfect as Jesus, He IS God, but, I can be as good as Mary, she is just a human, not divine. At least I can attempt to be as good as her, she lived without sin, I unfortunately don’t come close. Honor you mother.

What this has to do with praying to Mary is beyond me – but it is a great example of talking about something other than the question at hand.

So sorry, first of all look up “worship” in the dictionary. it says “to honor, to regard with great even extravagant respect, honor or devotion” “worthiness, repute, respect” that is what we show, we do not “worship” Mary as a God, we worship her as our mother. Ever hear the saying “he worships the ground she walks on” it of course doesn’t mean “he” thinks she’s God does it?

The question is not worship: it is prayer. I don’t think – and I have to admit that my research on this particular part of Marian theology is in its infancy – that Catholics have worship service to Mary. I can’t recall an hymns to Mary, and I can’t recall that there are liturgies which extol Mary – in spite of the plethora of Marian feast days.

The issue is not whether you call Mary God: the question is whether you pray to Mary. The really wild thing is that if I was praying to the prophet Samuel, you would see the idolatry, I am sure. And if I was praying to my (unsaved) uncle Art, or if I was praying to the President, you would see the idolatry in that. But somehow when one prays to Mary or a saint, it’s just a harmless conversation. Please: look at what you are saying and hold it to the most basic level of objective standard.

 

[Vincent]

centuri0n:

The really wild thing is that if I was praying to the prophet Samuel, you would see the idolatry, I am sure.

I apologize for intruding, but what are your reasons for thinking that Catholics consider it idolatrous to pray to the prophet Samuel?

 

[Tom]

Hello cent, you obviously did not read my last post on the other thread. I’ll paste it here.

Tom:

Cent, my point was we can discuss our differences without the attack. I consider the tone of the argument as infalmmatory, not the subject. I would love to express my love for Mary to you, as well as the Scriptural references.

We can discuss anything about my faith as long as we do it in a civil tone. You are an anti-Catholic not for asking what i believe, but for your demeaning, inflammatory tone. Not all protestants are anti-Catholic, but yes, you are, some can carry on an open informative discussion. I will however not continue to discuss anything with someone who openly insults me.
The thread was about anti-Catholicism, not about praying to Mary and the saints. However if you’d like to read about praying to the “dead” there are many references in Scripture, start with 2 Mac 12, 38-46.
We have had discussions before and I thought they were civil. This has gone far beyond my tolerance. I am truly sorry.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you.

 

[Therese_Martin]

General reminder: Use the private messaging system for private replies. The forums are for posts to the general public.

 

[StubbleSpark]

Centurion,

You speak with pride. The warrior’s heart knows none.

Catholicism is a highly nuanced theological system older than the English language. We pre-date the printing press by over a Millenium and a half. Very little of what we believe justifiably fits into bumper stickers.

Who spoke to the dead? Jesus. At the transfiguration. Yes, He is special, but He is also sinless. “Pray” means “talk.” Look it up. “Necromancy” is defined as the communication with the dead for the purposes of divination. Look it up. Intercession is not intervention. It is no more a sin to ask a fellow church member in Heaven to pray for us than it is to ask someone in the earthly church to pray for us. All Christians do this. We are one body – not separated by death. This is not sentimental abstraction, it is bedrock for building. Catholics build and develop lest we become stagnant in our faith.

God wants us to look out for each other. We would not be much of a family if we did not. Refer to Abram “bargaining” with God before Sodom and Gomorrah. He was not changing God’s mind, and note the lack of lightning bolts he gets for trying to interceed on behalf of the wicked. Also, note Ezekiel 3:17-21. Also, refer to Sam carrying Frodo on the volcano. Frodo never lets go of the ring, but there is no stopping Sam from holding on to and helping Frodo out of Christian kindness and filial duty.

We are one. Death cannot divide us because as baptised Christians, we do not die. THIS is the Catholic way.

TOUDAI MOTO KURASHI

 

[Katholikos]

Christians have always prayed to the saints, except the come-lately Protestants.

To pray means to ask; it doesn’t mean to worship. Lawyers “pray this honorable court” to grant their petitions all the time.

St. Peter was crucified upside down under Nero and buried in the necropolis on Vatican Hill in 64 A.D. On the nearby tomb of the Valerii family is the following inscription: “Peter pray for the pious Christian men buried near your body.”

JMJ Jay

Reference: The Tomb of St. Peter, The New Discoveries in the Sacred Grottoes of the Vatican, by Margherita Guarducci, translated from the Italian by Joseph McLellan, George G. Harrap & Co., London, 1960.

Guarducci was the chief archaeologist in charge of the excavations beneath St. Peter’s Basilica, which was built over the original St. Peter’s built by Constantine, which in turn was built over the necropolis where Peter’s body lies. The book contains many photographs of the actual inscriptions.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Originally Posted by centuri0n
The really wild thing is that if I was praying to the prophet Samuel, you would see the idolatry, I am sure

May the prophet Samuel pray for us.

Perhaps you are uninformed, but the Litany of the Dominican Saints and Blessed includes: "All you holy Patriarchs and Prophets … pray for us."

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

The earliest Christians, and Catholics to this day, regarded “prayer” as supplication, not worship.
Worship involves offering sacrifice, homage, and adoration. These elements are missing in prayers to the saints.
Prayers to the saints are supplications for their intercession.

God Bless <><

 

[Anonymous_1]

I also dont see why people pray to Mary or Saints.

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.

sounds like your worshipping to me…
i could be wrong…

 

[mrS4ntA]

centuri0n:

… That’s fine – if you want to pray to God as an intercessor. That’s what intercession is: praying to God.
…

hmm… I don’t quite agree with that definition. “to intercede”, I think, by definition means “to pray for someone.”

Holy Mary, conceived without sin, intercede for us who have recourse to thee…

 

[mrS4ntA]

Anonymous_1:

sounds like your worshipping to me…
i could be wrong…

na… it doesn’t to me…

Flower of Carmel,
Tall Vine, blossom laden.
Splendour of Heaven,
Child-bearing yet maiden.

None equals thee,
Mother so tender,
Whom no man didst know.

On Carmel’s children
thy favours bestow,
Star of the Sea…

 

[jimmy]

I have a question, is Therese Martin more super than the rest of the moderators? Thats the word goin around according to this.

Therese Martin http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_13603”, true);
Super Moderator

 

[Katholikos]

Anonymous_1:

I also dont see why people pray to Mary or Saints.

Mary and the saints are part of our Catholic family. We ask our family members to pray for us.

sounds like your worshipping to me…
i could be wrong…

You’re right – you could be wrong (and are)!

Protestants have been told that Catholics worship saints and statues of the saints. When they see us kneeling in prayer before a saint’s statue, they have those fallacies confirmed. They see and hear what they have been programmed to believe is true. They interpret everything they experience through their own limited worldview. They read the words of our prayers and conform them to their own mindset. “I always knew you worshiped saints, and this proves it!,” they assert.

‘Pray,’ ‘worship’ and ‘lord’ are misunderstood words whose meanings are in transition; e.g., English judges are still addressed as “your worship”; English Parliament still has a House of Lords; “my lord” is a term of respect, not worship; ‘pray’ means to ask anyone, not just God.

We don’t “worship” saints in the 21st century sense of the word. “Dulia” is the correct Latin term, meaning the reverence of a disciple for his master or of a servant for his lord (small L). This is the honor given to the angels and saints as friends of God.

These misunderstandings develop because our Catholic Faith is ancient; it comes to us from the Apostles; Protestantism is only 487 years old and uses uses the same words, but often with different meanings.

Any Friend of God’s Is a Friend of Mine! (Title of a book by Patrick Madrid)

JMJ Jay
(former Protestant)

"Peter pray for the pious Christian men buried near your body."

 

[steve_b]

Anonymous_1:

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Pray for us Oh Holy mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

sounds like your worshipping to me…
i could be wrong…

look at what the prayer says.

Who is our life, our sweetness, and our hope? Jesus.
Who is the mother of our life, our sweetness and our hope? Mary

Who is called the second Adam in scripture? Jesus.
Who is called the second Eve by the Early Church? Mary.

Who is Eve? the mother of all the living.
Who is Mary the second Eve? The mother of all the living in Christ her son.

Who are typically advocates for their children? Mothers. Who is our mother we can go to in need? Mary

What do we ask of Mary our mother? To show us the fruit of her womb…Jesus, and pray for us Oh Holy mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ

Jesus is King and that makes Mary in the style of the OT, His queen mother.

Now go back and review the prayer. This prayer is a request of the mother of God, to pray for us, her children, and be an advocate for us to her son. Common sense tells us that this prayer is infinitely more powerful than having joe six pak down the street pray for us. And Catholics have known this from the very beginning.

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Why go through Mary to get to Jesus? For the same reason Jesus came through Mary to get to us. It’s God’s plan…

By going through Mary, we imitate Jesus.

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