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armyross
Guest
Thanks for the post Bart.
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BartBurk
Guest
This is an important issue to me. The quotes which really nailed the truth the Catholic Church teaches are Ignatius of Antioch’s statements:
This is a man who was a disciple of the apostle John. It would be incredible to believe someone teaching this early in the Church’s life would be inventing doctrine. He simply is confirming the doctrine found in John’s gospel. With the testimony of these early disciples it seems quite foolish to try to interpret it as 19th century Baptists did.
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armyross
Guest
Bart,
Thanks again. Antioch’s statements are intresting and useful.
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cyberjacques
Guest
Yes, but good luck getting a Mormon to actually answer you straight on any of this. They’ll say that the science is flawed or the Bible corrupted. Even now they’re apparently comparing genetics to phrenology in order to defend their assertion that the Native Americans are descended from a lost tribe of Israel. Don’t bother trying to use facts against them, we’ve all tried and it doesn’t seem to work. Not against the true believers, anyway.But the Universe is not eternal. Both the Bible and Science says it had a beginning. According to Astronomers -13.2 billion light-years ago to be precise. Someone had to make the matter - from nothing logically. Then that someone had to get it started to first make Hydrogen. Then other matter from that. We see him still creating gasses and stars from that today.
God has to be infinite. The universe does not - and has to have a Creator.
Where does that leave you?
**Robin of the Wichita Hood**
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grandfather
Guest
Being willing to dialogue with a group is a good idea. In order to have a successful dialogue you need to understand the party or group with which you are engaged. So if you are talking to a Muslim or a pagan animist, or a pantheist it is helpful to have thise definition. You would not likely discuss the same things with a Muslim as you would a Lutheran. In all dialogues it is helpful to be polite and not deliberately offensive and it is essential that you be truthful. In being truthful you must avoid flattery. Mormons may see themselves as the only true Christians. That does not offend me. If they think we are all apostates and have been for most of two thousand years that is what they think. So what! Others see them as not Christian. They do not hold the essential beliefs that make a Christian a Christian by any definition other than their own.
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AMDGtoo
Guest
And IMO unless that is recognized, dialogue is impossible–we end up talking passed each other thinking that we mean the same thing when we don’t plus we end up being mutually offensive to each other without even knowing it!
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armyross
Guest
I agree I think if we were all in the same room together we could all talk with out coming across offensive. But there are those that want to be offensive.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
***I am reminding you all that the standard of charity here at CAF is high and I expect all of you that have vehemently disagreed to step that charity up.
If you have questions, refer to the Forum Rules*** and Banned Topics and then PM me.
MF
If you have questions, refer to the Forum Rules*** and Banned Topics and then PM me.
MF
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robert7685
Guest
For me the toughest thing to give up was the concept holding the priesthood. Part of me was wowed at the concept that I could act in God’s name. However, I must follow the truth, no matter where it leads.
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tundramom
Guest
Very interesting Robert. It was such a relief to me when I became a Christian and realized the “priesthood of all believers”. Although a Priest does have the authority passed from Peter, believers all do have an authority which comes only from God. Men and women alike!
The first time I prayed for my sick child by myself was astonishing to me. I just wept with relief. I had been a single Mom for awhile with an “unworthy” Mormon and was now married to a wonderful Catholic man who couldn’t hold the Mormon priesthood either. I laid hands on my child and I blessed her and prayed for her and felt the Peace of God! For a woman who grew up Mormon, that was an eye-opening experience!
in Christ
Steph
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robert7685
Guest
Stories like that always gave me pause. Then again, I was a convert to Mormonism at seventeen, so I probably wasn’t as quick to dismiss it. I simply did not have as much invested into it as one who was born into it. Though the mormon church did basicly make up almost my entire social life. Sorry if it seems like I’m rambling. It was actually a very recent decision to leave mormonism.
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tundramom
Guest
What do you mean “gave me pause”?
I don’t think leaving any religion that you’ve invested time/talent/interest in is easy to leave. You are blessed to have decided to leave and are feeling relatively unscarred. I think for me, because it was the only thing I knew until the age of 27, I was more hesitant to leave.
Also rambling, but hey!
I do think that the Mormons of today aren’t nearly as frightened as we who grew up in Happy Valley in the 70’s and 80’s were. I come from good ole pioneer stock and am the only member of my family that I know of who has left the fold.
in Christ
Steph
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majick275
Guest
i gave up a lot and it was hard. in mormonism you always who knew who everybody was in your ward and you had a built-in social network. it was easy to get involved. it was easy to get your kids involved. being in priesthood leadership positions was good for the ego. i felt i was serving God in an important way. i had all this authority and personal revelation to turn to for how to use it. the prospect of being a God was sometimes tempting. the gnostic appeal of the temple (creepy as it was) played into it as well. my parents being all into it complicated it too. the thought of the welfare safety net was scary to give up. i have rambled but those are my thoughts.
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tundramom
Guest
I agree majick275. The welfare system of the Mormon church sure is a safety net. I used to think that the US government should adopt it’s policies.
After my Dad died, my Mom and my sisters and I relied heavily on the church in order to survive. They were there for us and it was so nice to be able to keep your pride about you as well when you worked it off. There is something to be said for it.
However… there is nothing like the gift of charity. Pure charity that expects nothing in return. Not a qualification, not earned. When I now donate to different charities (most often Catholic or Teen Challenge- a favorite of mine) I do so with an open heart and expect nothing in return.
I find that it feeds my own ego way too much to expect payment for charity and although it does good for the recipient, I don’t think that’s how God works.
in Christ
Steph
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valient_Lucy
Guest
As a non-Mormon lurking on this thread, how is the Mormon welfare system not charity? I’m a little confused.
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majick275
Guest
it is based on you the member paying in “fast offerings” each month to generate the funds and paying 10% of your income as tithing in order to be “worthy” of it when needed. it is also the church’s responsibility to provide you with a method to “work” for what they give you while you receive it. now individual bishops apply this at their own discretion but it is a bit of a “closed system”.
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armyross
Guest
What I find hard about leaving the LDS church is my family and I are not close anymore. As far as being the black sheep. I just hope that they do not put that same feeling on my kid.
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AMDGtoo
Guest
I’m non-Mormon too, but unfortunately, I cannot say the same for my youngest daughter. Anyway, she told me (and she seemed very proud of the fact) that when the LDS church gives aid, they expect some sort of payment (or that the person works for it) while in the case of charity, it is given without expecting a return of any kind.
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xixxvmcm85
Guest
Technically this is wrong.
The Mormons believe God (Elohim, the Father) is eternal and indeed created all matter.
In Mormonism, it was Jesus (Jehovah, the Son) who is commissioned to go down and “organize matter” into a universe.
So the begged question in my other post I think still stands. I wonder if some of the LDS who frequent here might answer it.
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xixxvmcm85
Guest
Amen to that! Especially having returned from my mission, oh but a few years ago, sometimes I still find myself reaching for the oil in my coat pocket when someone’s in the need for a quick blessing. And then… oh wait, that’s right! lol.
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