Neither you nor I believe in universal salvation.
The rejection of Christ and Him crucified for sinners.
Sure, so what is your understanding of the atonement or even the biblical word propitiation. Was the sacrifce of the cross an actual atonement accomplishing what God intended. Or was it incomplete atonement?
Are we dead in our sins and trespasses before we hear about Christ and the gospel? Or are we condemned before hearing about Christ. Remember, we both believe in original sin.
in that case, then it is a sin
Thanks for the info, but I tried your link and it didn’t work. Do you mind explaining these two verses according to your theology? I would appreciate a post with your own words as compared to a link. Thanks again for your posting.
The entire world stood guilty before God. God resolved to redeem us from this stance by inserting an innocent man upon whom was God’s righteous wrath. By the sacrifice of one, many are made sons. For the same reason that one man may represent the whole race; by the disobedience of one, many are under wrath.
That sounds actually what I believe to be as the Christian Faith. It’s interesting that you said that “the sacrifice of one, *many *are made sons”. I think we agree upon original sin. In regards to the thread topic, do you think the debt was paid in full for all men? Or, are you saying the debt was paid for us (believers).
The atonement is for the entire world, but not all accept this atonement.
Mankind is being redeemed from the ditch it dug itself into with the shovel of sin. Christ Jesus is the ladder, the way, out of the darkness. We don’t just accept that the ladder (Jesus) is the truth, we must “lay hold”-St. Paul, and use the ladder by Grace alone to climb up out of the pit. The ladder is a gift, now we must use it and not “neglect it.”-St. Paul. All who receive him, he gives the right to become the family of God.
Have you seen the ladder position in Romans 10? Look closely and you will find it.
I believe in this whole heartedly, but I think what you are implying is that what Paul is saying here is calling Jesus Lord with the mouth (confess Him) and believe in the heart (faith) is all that is required for our complete redemption. But I insist that the text does not say only confess, only believe and you shall be saved. “Not those who call me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but those who do the will of my Father…Many will say we prophecy in your name and cast out devils!” i.e. the believed in the heart…“and I will say to you depart you who work evil.” the only option besides doing evil is to do good, thus good works (the Father’s will) done by the grace of God alone (not our own merit) in faith are indeed necessary for our sanctification and complete redemption.Have you seen the ladder position in Romans 10? Look closely and you will find it.
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
I was addressing the ladder theology that Paul was adressing. Can you find it in Romans 10?
expound on it for me
Yes, but I don’t think an infant, or a person living in a place where Jesus had never been taught to them is sinning by not believing, because they don’t know. They are ignorant but not sinful. Well, maybe in the original sin sense, but not in the sense that they are capable of being sorry.
Maybe we should stick with the offiical Catholic view on original sin, thus the necessity of infant baptism. If I understand the Catholic Faith, original sin is removed from the infant, placing that infant in a justified state before God.
But if they have never heard, have they sinned?Have you seen the ladder position in Romans 10? Look closely and you will find it.
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Rom 10