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PJM
Guest
“For you”
Are there any convoluted, difficult beliefs or practices of the CC?
What are they ann WHY?
Are there any convoluted, difficult beliefs or practices of the CC?
What are they ann WHY?
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svid2
Guest
As an informed, practicing Catholic who is comfortable with all the teachings and practices of the Church, I have yet to have explained to me the real differences among the Saints, the Blesseds, and the Venerables.
Yes, I know how they get to be canonized (put on an official list), but if Saint Pio and Blessed John Paul II are both in Heaven and can intercede for us, why do they have different titles?
Do Saints have nicer haloes, or get better seating before the Beatific Vision?
Yes, I know how they get to be canonized (put on an official list), but if Saint Pio and Blessed John Paul II are both in Heaven and can intercede for us, why do they have different titles?
Do Saints have nicer haloes, or get better seating before the Beatific Vision?
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kimg901
Guest
Yeah!. Does one get a Lambo and the other a Pinto? Im just playing
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Here’s a practical difference - the Liturgy. Saints can have their feast days celebrated with the Liturgy anywhere in the world. Blesseds can have their feast days celebrated with the Liturgy, but only in limited locales - like the diocese where they lived and died, or within the religious order they were members of. Venerables don’t have festal days to be celebrated in the Liturgy.
I think the word for this is ‘Honors of the Altar’, but I’m not positive on that.
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englishredrose
Guest
without wanting to drop major bombs am anglican ans so there are quite a number of CC practices and believes that I personally have difficulty with and does stop me from even wanting to ever think about becoming RC. If Anglicans closed the doors for good per se, my current priest has given me enough ‘teaching’ that I could survive with God without another religion/church (name removed by moderator)ut. I would be terrified that a RC priest would try to unteach everything the current priest has been patiently trying to teach me. I also do worry that another Anglican Priest might try to unteach too because I wouldn’t necessarily be as clear about saying what I have learned from what I have been taught. But it will stay with me for life because it so want of a better saying ‘up my street’ - just so me.
But there seems to be an awful lot of duties and obligations in the RC that I would simply fail to keep up with - just having had a bad week per se over a comment made in last week sermon and I know in my heart I’m okay, just a comment that got the better end of me in my darker moments which I might make a note of for when I do get around to confession which is through choice with us so we go when we really want to rather than have to. I do use that and discuss things that you guys wouldn’t think of bringing up in confession but I do… but well because I am anglican and me on top of that there are a lot of things I would seriously question about RC religion and I don’t want to offend anyone here so that is why I am spelling out I am Anglican rather than spelling out the actual detailed things I find very hard.
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PJM
Guest
- Venerables: are those who lives APPEAR to merit consideration for Sainhood. their “cause” is accepted and an intensive review of ALL of their written works and well as extensive interivews of those associated and known to that person is conducted.
Much of the above having taken place; a recommendation is made to the reigning Pontiff, who reviews everything and can alone make this decision.
- God is asked to intervein; and a miracle MUST be credited to prayers to and through the person in consideration. If and when a miracle does take place; extensive and usually independent , often, " non-catholic" experets are soungt to verify the miracle has no human explaination.
Until recent times TWO miracles were required: one for Beautification and a second for Sainthood. I was advised [but have not personally confirmed this developement].
The Process normally takes many years.
“Saints” capitolized are comfirmed saints.
“saints” uncapitolized are all those in heaven without the verification process.
As to “better seating”; the current theology is *, that they do. Exactly how this works out I don’t yet; but I’m working on it to find out [in person]
Yet their is an equality because in -order to attain hean ALL must either have died “Perfect” or have been made “perfect” [perfected through Purgatory].
Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Hope this helps you.*
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Publisher
Guest
Most definitely.
We have One Mediatior between God and man, Jesus of Nazareth. Yet according to Catholic belief I must rely on a human to reach Him. I must go to a certain building and receive “sacraments” that must be done thru a certain human for me or to me.
I can’t come to Christ thru faith. I need someone else’s help. I must be dunked or sprinkled with water by somone saying the correct words…my faith has little to do with it since the “correct words” must be said by another falible human for it to be “valid”…I must engage in a ritual meal…confected by someone ordained by men to say the correct words and make the correct gestures over the bread and wine and if this man does not have the correct credentials…never mind whether he is a good or moral person…he has a “certificate” that states his organization is the right one. Unless I go to this human on a regualr basis to receive this bread and wine he confects, I am in spiritual danger…so far, unless it’s the same person, there is already one man possibly two, between me and the One Mediator that I must go to before God will accept me.
Thats just the beginning.
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4Squarebaby
Guest
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JMJ_coder
Guest
I will hopefully get back to addressing your other points. But, I wanted to start with this.
Indeed, Christ is our one mediator with God the Father in regards to mankind’s reconciling with God due to the effect of the fall. But, God does use other people to bring us to him. Even looking past the sacramental life, which I plan to address later, on the practical level we must rely on other humans to bring us to knowledge of God. I’m sure you didn’t wake up one day having never before in your life hearing about the Christian faith and all of a sudden a light bulb went off and you were impressed that this faith which had never been told to you before was suddenly like a thunderbolt? Or did your parents teach you about God and Jesus? I’m assuming you don’t speak Greek and Hebrew, so you rely on another human to translate the Scripture for you, and you rely on the original human authors to have faithfully recorded the revelation they received from God.
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dmar198
Guest
First, not in every sense do you need another human to reach out to God. If you were stranded alone on an island you could still pray, you could still believe, and you could still attain salvation. God is not bound by the Sacraments, we are.
Second, the reason God gave us Sacraments is because He willed that ordinarily people not be stranded on an island, but rather that they live in community with other believers and that these should share their faith and their life together. You as a Quaker may not believe that ceremony is all that important. But your religion has gatherings every Sunday and that is a kind of ceremony, and that reveals something about our human nature: we are communal beings. When we have a child, we want people to know about it, and we have a party. When we have a wedding, we want people to share in that joy, and we have a party then too.
We are also ceremonial beings. Even people who don’t have infant baptism usually have a commitment ceremony for their kid, and almost everyone makes weddings into a ceremony. That reveals something about our nature. We are ceremonial beings, and since God designed His religion for humans, we should expect that it would include ceremony, because the faith touches all aspects of our humanity and doesn’t leave any of it excluded. There is also evidence that this is the way God wanted it to be from the Scriptures. If God didn’t want us to have the sacrament of baptism, why did He put it in the Bible and tell His apostles to baptize all nations? If He didn’t want us to have the sacrament of the Eucharist, why did He put it in the Bible and tell His apostles to do it in memory of Him?
Yes, you do need to receive the Sacraments, because you need to do what God says. But that does not imply that Jesus is not the one mediator. He mediates His grace through the Sacraments and He says so in the Bible. Therefore, why not accept it? And if you are ever stranded on an island, then you can still rest in the assurance that God is not bound by His Sacraments, even though He has bound us to them.
Also re: receiving the Sacraments from sinners, you probably are aware that they wouldn’t need to be perfect, and if they wouldn’t need to be perfect, that shows that being a sinner is not incompatible with distributing God’s grace. You ought to find a holy priest, of course, but God can work through anybody, and since when the priest consecrates the Eucharist, God is the one making the change, the priest’s sinfulness or holiness doesn’t make a difference, because he is not the one in charge.
Anyway I hope that helps. God bless!
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MartinJordan
Guest
If God didn’t want human intercession then He didn’t have to have Jesus His Only Son born through man (woman/Mary) and need her YES. And if He didn’t want “ceremony” why even send Melchizadek to offer bread and wine to Abraham or as dmar198 kindly and lovingly pointed out how Jesus asked his Apostles do as he did,.
We are a community,of believers so intercession is indeed a good thing. God has given his approval.
MJ
We are a community,of believers so intercession is indeed a good thing. God has given his approval.
MJ
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benjohnson
Guest
I have to admit that I chuckled when I read this because I’ve had the same thought about my own church - that is seems we put a few more ‘constraints’ than we need for un-bound love that God has for us.
The Lutheran perspective would be to say that this is the ‘third-use’ of the Law - it’s not civil ‘do what we tell’ you law, it’s not God’s Law that makes us die as a sinner, but the Law that is a response to God’s love and grace.
Rather that see all these rules as dulling drudgery performed under penalty of harsh rebuke, what may be going in is that they are a response to God’s Grace in that we are try to be as correct as possible.
I have to admit that my views of the LC-MS was that they they were a bunch of unfriendly leglistic hard-noses ready to pounce on any error. When in fact, we are a bunch of loving and caring legalistic hard-noses ready to pounce on any error.
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PJM
Guest
My friend,
Who’s in charge? You or Christ?
From Abram, to Noe; Moses to David and Jacob; to the Judges and Prophets, to Christ Himself who CHOOSE Peter and eleven others; God has with absolute conviction and consistency chosen “men” to lead unto salvation, certain men. Some followed and obeyed; others choose not to and suffered the consequences of their actions. Eternal damnation. That same choice faces us and all peoples; all of the time. Do we hear and obey; or think we know more and know better?
John.15: 16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you”
Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.” AND READ Mk. 16:14-15; Mt. 28: 18-20 and learn specifically, precisely and exclusively WHO CHRIST Choose, and commanded to Teach.
And NOTE: In Mt. 16:15-19 **Christ Choose Peter on which to build “MY CHURCH” **[singular]. One God can have Only One set of Faith beliefs; and He certainly did not wait for Henry the VII, Luther , Calvin or Smith to make them known. ALL biblically provable.
No, you cannot. Eph.2: 8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”
Yes! Christ Personally created all Seven of the Sacraments by Order or Command precisely to AID men attain Salvation.
Not quite: a “fallible man” OBEYING an INFALLIBLE GOD: Jn.3:5; Mt. 28:19-20 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, ***unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” ***& “Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world”
HIGHLY Beneficial; BUT NOT mandated. Not a “certificate:”; Christ Sacrament of Holy Orders; and again in OBEDIENCE to Christ Himself: Lk. 22: 19 “And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me” & Paul 1st. Cor. 11: 23-24 “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me” Christ Empowered ONLY the Apostles from whom this authority is transferred by Succession. READ Jn. 17:18 & 20:21-22 cf. “As MY Father Sent ME; so I send YOU!”
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Publisher
Guest
Of course he could have…“God can do anything”If God didn’t want human intercession then He didn’t have to have Jesus His Only Son born through man (woman/Mary) and need her YES. And if He didn’t want “ceremony” why even send Melchizadek to offer bread and wine to Abraham or as dmar198 kindly and lovingly pointed out how Jesus asked his Apostles do as he did,.
We are a community,of believers so intercession is indeed a good thing. God has given his approval.
MJ
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Publisher
Guest
God uses other people definitely…but the work and dispensing of Eternal Life is not dependant on what they do…according to Catholic belief it’s not even required that these men be believers or not in Him as long as someone else says the “magic words” while I am being sprinkled or dunked will it be valid.
Others share His Life with us, but I am not dependant on their ministry…I am dependant on Christ and His work alone…Either One Mediator means “ONE MEDIATOR” or it doesn’t…
Even a priest in mortal sin living a leacherous life and denying the very God you claim he was ordained by is required for me to receive the bread and wine he “confects” in order to truly have a valid eucharist. His moral standing, unlike Christs, has no bearing.
Jesus died and offered himself as the “Sinless Lamb of God”…but a sinful man who stands in his stead is still needed to obtain His grace…so now…I have “two mediators”…if I believe all grace flows thru Mary…that’s three in the line before God can be approached by me.
What good is my priesthood if another prieshood still is needed? I share in Christ’s priesthood thru faith…the priesthood of all believers, the ability to enter the Presence direcly without human mediation is barred by the ‘veil’ once again after being torn it twain at the cross.
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Publisher
Guest
I appreciate your effort…I still can’t accept your words as God’s Truth because it puts another in front of Christ I must go to…I go to Him and Him alone…no one else is worthy…“Worthy is the Lamb”
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FoundGodOutside
Guest
Since Catholics believe their church is Christ’s Church, I don’t think you’re very likely to get them to understand what you’re saying. But I would say Christ and how He has us experiencing Him to a large degree decides. Btw I liked what you said earlier about seeing Him in our neighbors and the least amongst us.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
“My Flesh is truly Food, and My Blood is truly drink. He that eats my Flesh and drinks My Blood will remain in Me and I in him.” As for this reality there can be no doubt since the Lord stated it and it has been the Faith of the Church all along. Is this not true?
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