For You; seeking opinions

[Publisher]

Since Catholics believe their church is Christ’s Church, I don’t think you’re very likely to get them to understand what you’re saying. But I would say Christ and how He has us experiencing Him to a large degree decides. Btw I liked what you said earlier about seeing Him in our neighbors and the least amongst us.

I’m not trying to change Catholic minds…I was answering the OP’s question.

Thank you friend for you words.

 

[Publisher]

“My Flesh is truly Food, and My Blood is truly drink. He that eats my Flesh and drinks My Blood will remain in Me and I in him.” As for this reality there can be no doubt since the Lord stated it and it has been the Faith of the Church all along. Is this not true?

Well…the writer of John may have thought he said them. The question is do I accept whay your church says those words mean.

It hasn’t always been the “faith of the church”…reading the Didache…the most contemporary document outside the NT to the early church we have. No place in this document where it discusses the eucharist will you find a confirmation of your belif…instead this very early church document has a completely different understanding of the eucharist…completely different prayers and associations to what the bread and wine mean…only in the second century…some 100+ years after the NT and the Didache were written does it become a theme that resembles yours…and only the “proto-orthodox/catholic” groups of Christians embraced it…decades and decades after Christianity split from Judaism and became highly influence by Gentile belief and philosophy…not too many Jewish “ECF’s”…most if not all Gentile.

“Is this not true”…No, it’s not…but I do not begrudge you your belief that is is so…I simply do not share it.

 

[FoundGodOutside]

“My Flesh is truly Food, and My Blood is truly drink. He that eats my Flesh and drinks My Blood will remain in Me and I in him.” As for this reality there can be no doubt since the Lord stated it and it has been the Faith of the Church all along. Is this not true?

It’s true for those believing in Catholic interpretation of faith matters. And for those who believe the Catholic Church with the power it eventually obtained had a monopoly on church all along. And if you believe He was not speaking figuratively and was not referring to believing in Him and what He did for us on the cross when He said to eat and drink. I’m sure you’re familiar with different non Catholic Christian interpretations and perspectives. One for instance is that to “eat” and “drink” Him means to believe in Him and in what He did on the cross to save us from our sins. There are different faiths. Catholicism is one of many.

 

[FoundGodOutside]

I’m not trying to change Catholic minds…I was answering the OP’s question.

Thank you friend for you words.

My friend, I know you’re not. You just seem to be able to understand there are different faiths and as you have so very well pointed out, we each have our own experiences through which we experience His Presence.

 

[adrift]

:tsktsk:

God uses other people definitely…but the work and dispensing of Eternal Life is not dependant on what they do…according to Catholic belief it’s not even required that these men be believers or not in Him as long as someone else says the “magic words” while I am being sprinkled or dunked will it be valid.

You usually are so consecrate that this rudeness is a surprise. It is insulting for you to use the the term “magic words”. Jesus commanded us to use those words. It is a matter of obedience.

Others share His Life with us, but I am not dependant on their ministry…I am dependant on Christ and His work alone…Either One Mediator means “ONE MEDIATOR” or it doesn’t…

Oh so now saying other share His Life with us is different than being mediator. Gotcha!

Even a priest in mortal sin living a leacherous life and denying the very God you claim he was ordained by is required for me to receive the bread and wine he “confects” in order to truly have a valid eucharist. His moral standing, unlike Christs, has no bearing.

Again you are being insulting. His moral standing is not yours to judge. What you are doing is defaming a “hypothetical” priest in order to defame what Jesus put into place.

Jesus died and offered himself as the “Sinless Lamb of God”…but a sinful man who stands in his stead is still needed to obtain His grace…so now…I have “two mediators”…if I believe all grace flows thru Mary…that’s three in the line before God can be approached by me.

Jesus said

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:
whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Hmmm according to you Jesus was wrong in telling them to do so since they weren’t perfect and they would then be another mediator

What good is my priesthood if another prieshood still is needed? I share in Christ’s priesthood thru faith…the priesthood of all believers, the ability to enter the Presence direcly without human mediation is barred by the ‘veil’ once again after being torn it twain at the cross.

The priesthood you share in is not the ordained priesthood

PRIESTHOOD OF THE FAITHFULThe share in the high priesthood of Christ received by everyone at baptism and strengthened by confirmation and the Eucharist. Essential to this priesthood is the right to receive the other sacraments, of participating in the Church’s liturgy, and of being united with Christ the eternal priest as he offers himself, with the members of his Mystical Body, to the heavenly Father in the Eucharistic Sacrifice.

PRIESTHOODSacrament of the New Law, instituted by Christ at the Last Supper, which confers on a man the power of consecrating and offering the body and blood of Christ, and of remitting and retaining sins. There are two grades or levels of the priesthood, the presbyterate and the episcopate. Normally priesthood refers to the presbyterate and is the second rank of orders, above the diaconate. Only a bishop can ordain priests, who must first have been ordained deacons. In the ordination of priests, the “matter” of the sacrament is the imposition of the bishop’s hands upon the individual candidates, which is done in silence before the consecration prayer, of which the following words pertain to the nature of the order and therefore are required for the validity of the act: "We ask you, all powerful Father, give these servants of yours the ;dignity of the presbyterate. Renew the Spirit of holiness within them. By your divine gift may they attain the second order of the hierarchy and exemplify right conduct in their lives.

For further information
Part I-I. The Common Priesthood of the Faithful and the Ministerial Priesthood

 

[PJM]

=Publisher;10678841]God uses other people definitely…but the work and dispensing of Eternal Life is not dependant on what they do…according to Catholic belief it’s not even required that these men be believers or not in Him as long as someone else says the “magic words” while I am being sprinkled or dunked will it be valid.

You have no understanding of catholism:blush: Your personal opinons are poisoned by prideful; uninformed teachings, and radically skewed beliefs; not based on fact.

Your views are contradicted by the Bible and your lack of charityseemingly flows from your apparant lack of knowledge of the catholic church and what we believe and why; and indicates a very poor biblical catechisis on your part.

Might I suggest you take one thing you disagree with; identify it and ask for both an explaination and evidence of why we catholics do “such and such.” I’m not sure your able to accept truth even when its presented; but that my friend, is between you and OUR God

God Bless you!
PJM

 

[JMJ_coder]

Even a priest in mortal sin living a leacherous life and denying the very God you claim he was ordained by is required for me to receive the bread and wine he “confects” in order to truly have a valid eucharist. His moral standing, unlike Christs, has no bearing.

Yes, there have been priests and bishops who have led infamously immoral lives. But, that doesn’t effect the sacraments. It was actually a fourth century heresy that claimed this - Donatism. The truth is that it is not the priest how bestows the grace of the sacrament, it is Jesus himself. Jesus is the principal minister of all seven sacraments, but he works through (sinful) men to do so. When the priests celebrates a sacrament, he is acting in persona Christi - that is in the person of Christ. It is not the priest how says ‘this is my body, this is my blood’ and it is not the priest who says ‘I absolve you of your sins’, rather it is Jesus himself who says these beautiful words through his ordained ministers.

And God does use men set aside in a ministerial priesthood, and this goes all the way back through the Old Testament.

Jesus died and offered himself as the “Sinless Lamb of God”…but a sinful man who stands in his stead is still needed to obtain His grace…so now…I have “two mediators”…if I believe all grace flows thru Mary…that’s three in the line before God can be approached by me.

Yes, men are sinful. Every Catholic is a horrible sinner and so is everyone in your ecclesial community. You are a horrible sinner and I am a horrible sinner. I say to you that the Church is not a museum of saints, but a hospital for us poor sinners.

God chose to work in this world through men. God did not throw down the Scriptures as a finished good, but worked through men to write down part of his revelation (part of it remains orally transmitted, which we call Sacred Tradition). God worked through men to discern which of the myriad writings floating around should be considered canonical (hint, it turns out it is those deemed worthy to be proclaimed at Liturgy).

And yes, God worked and still works through men to confer his august grace upon us sinners. God loves his creation and uses his creation to bring us to him. God comes to us through the ordinary, through the bread and the wine that become the Eucharist, through the water that washes us of sin and bears us to a new life in him, through oil that consecrates and commissions us to preach the Gospel in all ways and to all nations.

The Church follows God’s command through Baptism - Mt 3:16; 28:19; Mk 1:8; 16:16; Jn 3:5; Acts 1:4-5; 2:38; 8:16; 8:36-38; 11:16; 16:15; 16:33; 18:8; 19:3-6; 22:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 5:25-26; Col. 2:12; 1 Pt 3:20-21; etc., etc.

The Church follows God’s command through Reconcilliation - Mt 16:19; Mk 2:10; Jn 20:21-23; Rev. 1:18; etc.

The Church follows God’s command through the Eucharist - Mt 26:26-29; Lk 24:35; all of Jn 6; Acts 2:42; 1 Cor. 11:24-27; etc.

The Church follows God’s command through Confirmation - Acts 19:3-6; Heb 6:2; etc.

The Church follows God’s command through Anointing of the Sick - James 5:14-15; etc.

The Church follows God’s command through Holy Orders - Acts 6:3-6; Acts 13:2-3; 1 Tim. 3:1, 8-9; 4:14, 16; 5:17-19, 22; etc.

The Church follows God’s command through Matrimony - Mt. 19:10-11; Eph. 5:31-32; etc.

 

[PJM]

=FoundGodOutside;10679014]Since Catholics believe their church is Christ’s Church, I don’t think you’re very likely to get them to understand what you’re saying. But I would say Christ and how He has us experiencing Him to a large degree decides. Btw I liked what you said earlier about seeing Him in our neighbors and the least amongst us.

You riase a common point of view. Have you ever considered WHY we Catholics hold this position?

Because [wisely] space is limited; I can’t print out for you all of the biblical evidence that points to why we not only “do”; BUT literally “MUST DO” exactly that.

Here is a site you can use for easy bible look up. IF you wish to UNDERSTAND and form your own opinion based on the evidence; friend, I offer the following.

Know that the Bible has ONLY ONE Infallible rule.
“NEVER-EVER; CAN, MAY OR DOES ONE VERSE, PASSAGE OR TEACHING MAKE VOID; INVALIDATE OR OVERRIDE ANOTHER” Such would make the bible worthless.

Read the following in the sequence given:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/

pay close attention to the “singular tense” words of Christ; our Perfect God

Mt. 10:1-8
Mt. 16: 15-19
Mt. 18:18 authority passed to “all” of the Apostles through Peter
Lk. 21:31-32
Jn. 21:14-17
Jn.17: 18 & again in Jn. 20;21-22 Christ HANDS ON His very Power and Authority to His Apostles
Jn.14:16-17 FILLED in Jn. 20:21-22 above
Mk. 16: 14-15
Mt. 28:18-19
Eph. 4:1-7
Jn. 10:16
Acts 20:28
Rom. 13:2
& 2 Peter 2:1

These my friend make clear and evident our Perfect Gods intent; mandate and Purpose. They prove why we Catholics Do hold this view.

Know that as the Bible was completely authored by the end of the 1st. or early 2nd. Centuries that the term “church” applies directly to and exclusively to; today’s Catholic Church . NO OTHER “church” would even exist for nearly 1,000 more years!

God Bless you and Thank you for your post!
PJM

 

[PJM]

=JMJ_coder;10679276]Yes, there have been priests and bishops who have led infamously immoral lives. But, that doesn’t effect the sacraments. It was actually a fourth century heresy that claimed this - Donatism. The truth is that it is not the priest how bestows the grace of the sacrament, it is Jesus himself. Jesus is the principal minister of all seven sacraments, but he works through (sinful) men to do so. When the priests celebrates a sacrament, he is acting in persona Christi - that is in the person of Christ. It is not the priest how says ‘this is my body, this is my blood’ and it is not the priest who says ‘I absolve you of your sins’, rather it is Jesus himself who says these beautiful words through his ordained ministers.

And God does use men set aside in a ministerial priesthood, and this goes all the way back through the Old Testament.

Yes, men are sinful. Every Catholic is a horrible sinner and so is everyone in your ecclesial community. You are a horrible sinner and I am a horrible sinner. I say to you that the Church is not a museum of saints, but a hospital for us poor sinners.

God chose to work in this world through men. God did not throw down the Scriptures as a finished good, but worked through men to write down part of his revelation (part of it remains orally transmitted, which we call Sacred Tradition). God worked through men to discern which of the myriad writings floating around should be considered canonical (hint, it turns out it is those deemed worthy to be proclaimed at Liturgy).

And yes, God worked and still works through men to confer his august grace upon us sinners. God loves his creation and uses his creation to bring us to him. God comes to us through the ordinary, through the bread and the wine that become the Eucharist, through the water that washes us of sin and bears us to a new life in him, through oil that consecrates and commissions us to preach the Gospel in all ways and to all nations.

The Church follows God’s command through Baptism - Mt 3:16; 28:19; Mk 1:8; 16:16; Jn 3:5; Acts 1:4-5; 2:38; 8:16; 8:36-38; 11:16; 16:15; 16:33; 18:8; 19:3-6; 22:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 5:25-26; Col. 2:12; 1 Pt 3:20-21; etc., etc.

The Church follows God’s command through Reconcilliation - Mt 16:19; Mk 2:10; Jn 20:21-23; Rev. 1:18; etc.

The Church follows God’s command through the Eucharist - Mt 26:26-29; Lk 24:35; all of Jn 6; Acts 2:42; 1 Cor. 11:24-27; etc.

The Church follows God’s command through Confirmation - Acts 19:3-6; Heb 6:2; etc.

The Church follows God’s command through Anointing of the Sick - James 5:14-15; etc.

The Church follows God’s command through Holy Orders - Acts 6:3-6; Acts 13:2-3; 1 Tim. 3:1, 8-9; 4:14, 16; 5:17-19, 22; etc.

The Church follows God’s command through Matrimony - Mt. 19:10-11; Eph. 5:31-32; etc.

VERY well done my FRIEND:thumbsup:

Thank you

 

[FoundGodOutside]

You have no understanding of catholism:blush: Your personal opinons are poisoned by prideful; uninformed teachings, and radically skewed beliefs; not based on fact.

Your views are contradicted by the Bible and your lack of charityseemingly flows from your apparant lack of knowledge of the catholic church and what we believe and why; and indicates a very poor biblical catechisis on your part.

Might I suggest you take one thing you disagree with; identify it and ask for both an explaination and evidence of why we catholics do “such and such.” I’m not sure your able to accept truth even when its presented; but that my friend, is between you and OUR God

God Bless you!
PJM

Or he understands Catholicism and what you believe and as he said does not accept or believe it to be the truth as you believe it to be in your faith. You don’t appear able to accept his faith either. There are many different faiths. God bless you too.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well…the writer of John may have thought he said them.

Well good points, first things first through, I’m not sure I follow you here. “The writer of John may have thought he said”? So how do you know what’s inspired? Who are these others that you would believe that have this same history but disagree in understanding? Do they also have the same continuity in history till today?

 

[adrift]

Well…the writer of John may have thought he said them. The question is do I accept whay your church says those words mean.

It hasn’t always been the “faith of the church”…reading the Didache…the most contemporary document outside the NT to the early church we have. No place in this document where it discusses the Eucharist will you find a confirmation of your belif

Since it does not discuss the Eucharist itself but only how to give thanks your point is moot.
But it does leave the question give thanks for what?
Eucharist by definition is the commemoration of the Last Supper

Take, eat; this is My Body…And He took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
for this is My Blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
/QUOTE]

by calling it the Eucharist points to the Last Supper. You say there is no confirmation, I say there is and once more nowhere in the document supports your view.

…instead this very early church document has a completely different understanding of the eucharist…completely different prayers and associations to what the bread and wine mean…only in the second century…some 100+ years after the NT and the Didache were written does it become a theme that resembles yours…and only the “proto-orthodox/catholic” groups of Christians embraced it…decades and decades after Christianity split from Judaism and became highly influence by Gentile belief and philosophy…not too many Jewish “ECF’s”…most if not all Gentile.

“Is this not true”…No, it’s not…but I do not begrudge you your belief that is is so…I simply do not share it.

A different view?

What you state here is not supported by the Didache.

We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever…

This is the cup of Blood that is being given thanks to the Father. It was made know by Jesus to us that is Jesus told us that it was His Blood.

But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, “Give not that which is holy to the dogs.”

Perfectly in line with Catholic Teaching.

You didst freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant

I don’t see where there is anything different in our belief. A belief taught by the Apostles. A belief that is the Bible.

 

[FoundGodOutside]

You riase a common point of view. Have you ever considered WHY we Catholics hold this position?

Because [wisely] space is limited; I can’t print out for you all of the biblical evidence that points to why we not only “do”; BUT literally “MUST DO” exactly that.

Here is a site you can use for easy bible look up. IF you wish to UNDERSTAND and form your own opinion based on the evidence; friend, I offer the following.

Know that the Bible has ONLY ONE Infallible rule.
“NEVER-EVER; CAN, MAY OR DOES ONE VERSE, PASSAGE OR TEACHING MAKE VOID; INVALIDATE OR OVERRIDE ANOTHER” Such would make the bible worthless.

Read the following in the sequence given:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/

pay close attention to the “singular tense” words of Christ; our Perfect God

Mt. 10:1-8
Mt. 16: 15-19
Mt. 18:18 authority passed to “all” of the Apostles through Peter
Lk. 21:31-32
Jn. 21:14-17
Jn.17: 18 & again in Jn. 20;21-22 Christ HANDS ON His very Power and Authority to His Apostles
Jn.14:16-17 FILLED in Jn. 20:21-22 above
Mk. 16: 14-15
Mt. 28:18-19
Eph. 4:1-7
Jn. 10:16
Acts 20:28
Rom. 13:2
& 2 Peter 2:1

These my friend make clear and evident our Perfect Gods intent; mandate and Purpose. They prove why we Catholics Do hold this view.

Know that as the Bible was completely authored by the end of the 1st. or early 2nd. Centuries that the term “church” applies directly to and exclusively to; today’s Catholic Church . NO OTHER “church” would even exist for nearly 1,000 more years!

God Bless you and Thank you for your post!
PJM

Oh yes I have considered why many times. I was baptized, properly catechized, and confirmed in Catholicism. I know the why. I used to practice Catholicism until I came to believe differently on some Catholic POV and laity told me to leave the Church. So rather than staying where I was unwelcomed, I completely left the practice of the faith and found one where I am welcomed. Thank you and again God bless you too.

 

[PJM]

=FoundGodOutside;10679317]Or he understands Catholicism and what you believe and as he said does not accept or believe it to be the truth as you believe it to be in your faith. You don’t appear able to accept his faith either. There are many different faiths. God bless you too.

Thanks for that thought

The problem with it is that “truth” like God himself" is singular.

The CC is the ONLY church that has the “fullness of God’s truths and teachings”

Is the Only Church and FAITH Founded by Christ Personally and this is a clearly biblical teaching.

Because God IS One [and perfect]
One God can; and certainly does hold ONLY one set of Faith beliefs [Eph. 4:1-7]
It is a Theological and Moral IMPOSSIBILITY for these facts to not be the singular truths.

Look at my signature message.

Pope Benedict said in his very first Teaching as Pope:
“THERE CANNOT BE YOUR TRUTH AND MY TRUTH OR THEIR WOULD BE NO TRUTH.”

Friend, I’m not being unchairatble in my rebuttale of our friend “Publisher.”

His opinions are just, and ONLY that: his sadly skewed and bitter opinions. What I have stated I have offered evidence in support of. he has not. Nor can he.

Who founded his “chirch” or your’s?

Jesus Christ; in person Founded the Catholic Church and that friend is both biblically and historically proveable. Amen? Amen!

PJM

 

[adrift]

There are different faiths. Catholicism is one of many.

People may believe differently about God but they cannot all be true. Catholicism is the only one that possesses the fullness of truth from the time of Christ. There is only one truth.

 

[adrift]

Thanks for that thought

The problem with it is that “truth” like God himself" is singular.

The CC is the ONLY church that has the “fullness of God’s truths and teachings”

Is the Only Church and FAITH Founded by Christ Personally and this is a clearly biblical teaching.

Because God IS One [and perfect]
One God can; and certainly does hold ONLY one set of Faith beliefs [Eph. 4:1-7]
It is a Theological and Moral IMPOSSIBILITY for these facts to not be the singular truths.

Look at my signature message.

Pope Benedict said in his very first Teaching as Pope:
“THERE CANNOT BE YOUR TRUTH AND MY TRUTH OR THEIR WOULD BE NO TRUTH.”

Friend, I’m not being unchairatble in my rebuttale of our friend “Publisher.”

His opinions are just, and ONLY that: his sadly skewed and bitter opinions. What I have stated I have offered evidence in support of. he has not. Nor can he.

Who founded his “chirch” or your’s?

Jesus Christ; in person Founded the Catholic Church and that friend is both biblically and historically proveable. Amen? Amen!

PJM

I deleted an answer that was in the same vein because you said it better

 

[FoundGodOutside]

Thanks for that thought

The problem with it is that “truth” like God himself" is singular.

The CC is the ONLY church that has the “fullness of God’s truths and teachings”

Is the Only Church and FAITH Founded by Christ Personally and this is a clearly biblical teaching.

Because God IS One [and perfect]
One God can; and certainly does hold ONLY one set of Faith beliefs [Eph. 4:1-7]
It is a Theological and Moral IMPOSSIBILITY for these facts to not be the singular truths.

Look at my signature message.

Pope Benedict said in his very first Teaching as Pope:
“THERE CANNOT BE YOUR TRUTH AND MY TRUTH OR THEIR WOULD BE NO TRUTH.”

Friend, I’m not being unchairatble in my rebuttale of our friend “Publisher.”

His opinions are just, and ONLY that: his sadly skewed and bitter opinions. What I have stated I have offered evidence in support of. he has not. Nor can he.

Who founded his “chirch” or your’s?

Jesus Christ; in person Founded the Catholic Church and that friend is both biblically and historically proveable. Amen? Amen!

PJM

Yes I completely understand it is the Catholic faith and belief that the CC is the only church that has the fullness of God’s truths and teachings and was founded by Christ and is “provable” by the Biblical and historical interpretations you believe in and accept. But I also understand others have their faiths and beliefs and some even believe they can prove theirs too. Non Catholic Christians might say Christ founded theirs too. They just might not share your belief about “church”, views on history or Catholic interpretations of Scripture. In the end it still takes some faith no matter what faith you believe in. Amen.

 

[PJM]

=FoundGodOutside;10679350]Oh yes I have considered why many times. I was baptized, properly catechized, and confirmed in Catholicism. I know the why. I used to practice Catholicism until I came to believe differently on some Catholic POV and laity told me to leave the Church. So rather than staying where I was unwelcomed, I completely left the practice of the faith and found one where I am welcomed. Thank you and again God bless you too.

BUT my friend, is that WHERE God COMMANDS YOU TO BE?

Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,"

Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10: For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [Baptized] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [CONFIRMED AS A CATHOLIC -your decision!] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [HAD THE BIBLE PROPERLY, FULLY AND TRUTHFULLY EXPLAINED AT MASS] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

My friend;

God DOES NOT ask you; me or anyone for THEIR opinions. Truth remains truth even if denied by everyone. Truth is singular and heaven and HELL are eternal. WE CHOOSE them; God only affirms our choices

Christ handed out ONLY one set of Keys to Heaven and they REMAIN with the CC.

And dear friend; you haven’t FOUND God OUTSIDE the ONLY Church and Faith he himself founded; guides and protects. You have accepted a false god. Pride is the number ONE tool of the Deceiver.

Both God and HIS truth are SINGULAR:thumbsup:

Pray about it!

 

[JMJ_coder]

Yes I completely understand it is the Catholic faith and belief that the CC is the only church that has the fullness of God’s truths and teachings and was founded by Christ and is “provable” by the Biblical and historical interpretations you believe in and accept. But I also understand others have their faiths and beliefs and some even believe they can prove theirs too. Non Catholic Christians might say Christ founded theirs too. They just might not share your belief about “church”, views on history or Catholic interpretations of Scripture. In the end it still takes some faith no matter what faith you believe in. Amen.

The objection is not so much that ‘you believe x’ and ‘I believe y’. The objection is the claim that the Catholic faith is ‘just one among many’. That is relativism.

Since there is only one truth, that means certain claims are mutually exclusive. For example, if we say Jesus founded the Catholic Church and you say Jesus did not found the Catholic Church, then the laws of logic dictate that we cannot both be right, one is necessarily wrong.

In other words (in fact, in the words of propositional logic), for any proposition A, A ~= !A.

Now, if you think that truth is not singular and unique, then we would have to address that first.

 

[PJM]

=FoundGodOutside;10679415]Yes I completely understand it is the Catholic faith and belief that the CC is the only church that has the fullness of God’s truths and teachings and was founded by Christ and is “provable” by the Biblical and historical interpretations you believe in and accept. But I also understand others have their faiths and beliefs and some even believe they can prove theirs too. Non Catholic Christians might say Christ founded theirs too. They just might not share your belief about “church”, views on history or Catholic interpretations of Scripture. In the end it still takes some faith no matter what faith you believe in. Amen.

THANK YOU

That is precisely the “point” & why I’m the OP of this string. I CAn prove the catholic position and challange any other faith to:

1. Disprove [not opinions; facts] the Catholic authority granted by Christ persoanlly and exclusively.
2. To prove and justify there own faith beliefs and WHY God both permits and accpets it. Again with evidence; not opinions PLEASE:thumbsup:
3. True faith can and does only come by and through God Himself [Grace]. It is iniated by God and granted solely by God. God can have only One set of beliefs. Anything else is very human origin.

Pat Miron PJM here on CAF