For You; seeking opinions

[Isaiah45_9]

I appreciate your effort…I still can’t accept your words as God’s Truth because it puts another in front of Christ I must go to…I go to Him and Him alone…no one else is worthy…“Worthy is the Lamb”

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Christ commanded His disciples. Imagine that! Christ choosing men over a collection of books to make disciples… The Church points to Christ, The Pope points to Christ, Mary points to Christ, the Saints point to Christ, all must point to Christ.

We have men pointing other men to Christ, it is Christ command and it is not subject to interpretation as He did not leave any other options. It is not an interpretation either, Christ commands it: Go therefore and make disciples… baptizing… Christ commands it, we obey it.

 

[stewstew03]

God uses other people definitely…but the work and dispensing of Eternal Life is not dependant on what they do…according to Catholic belief it’s not even required that these men be believers or not in Him as long as someone else says the “magic words” while I am being sprinkled or dunked will it be valid.

Others share His Life with us, but I am not dependant on their ministry…I am dependant on Christ and His work alone…Either One Mediator means “ONE MEDIATOR” or it doesn’t…

Even a priest in mortal sin living a leacherous life and denying the very God you claim he was ordained by is required for me to receive the bread and wine he “confects” in order to truly have a valid eucharist. His moral standing, unlike Christs, has no bearing.

Jesus died and offered himself as the “Sinless Lamb of God”…but a sinful man who stands in his stead is still needed to obtain His grace…so now…I have “two mediators”…if I believe all grace flows thru Mary…that’s three in the line before God can be approached by me.

What good is my priesthood if another prieshood still is needed? I share in Christ’s priesthood thru faith…the priesthood of all believers, the ability to enter the Presence direcly without human mediation is barred by the ‘veil’ once again after being torn it twain at the cross.

Wait a second, I thought Quakers were tolerant of other beliefs? Aren’t we all a priesthood of believers? I’m a priest, you’re a priest, etc… and Christ is our Mediator.

So, in a sense, why not just think of us as Quakers, Publisher? Quakers who believe God, by the power of the Holy Spirit, has spoken to us and called us to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

Perhaps that will make Catholicism a bit more palatable…

.

 

[PJM]

=Isaiah45_9;10679516]Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Christ commanded His disciples. Imagine that! Christ choosing men over a collection of books to make disciples… The Church points to Christ, The Pope points to Christ, Mary points to Christ, the Saints point to Christ, all must point to Christ.

We have men pointing other men to Christ, it is Christ command and it is not subject to interpretation as He did not leave any other options. It is not an interpretation either, Christ commands it: Go therefore and make disciples… baptizing… Christ commands it, we obey it.

Originally Posted by Publisher
I appreciate your effort…I still can’t accept your words as God’s Truth because it puts another in front of Christ I must go to…I go to Him and Him alone…no one else is worthy…“Worthy is the Lamb”

NOT “in front of Christ” or before Christ: BUT In; With and through Christ

Mt. 10: 1-8 “1] And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. [2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, … These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: … And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils”

Jn.17:17-19 " Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [MEANING Jesus gives HIMSELF AS THE WARRANTY!] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me";

Jn. 20:21-23 [Jesus] “He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. **As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. **[22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained”

Mk. 16:14.-15 “At length he appeared to the eleven as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again. And he [Jesus] said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature” NO One has has theis MANDATE! Except the Catholic Churches and its members.

Mt. 28: 18-20 “And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world”

And the KEY’s to heaven were given ONLY too; directly too Peter from whom through Succession they continue to REST within the papacy and the CC.

 

[Publisher]

My friend, I know you’re not. You just seem to be able to understand there are different faiths and as you have so very well pointed out, we each have our own experiences through which we experience His Presence.

Absolutely friend!

 

[Publisher]

:tsktsk:
You usually are so consecrate that this rudeness is a surprise. It is insulting for you to use the the term “magic words”. Jesus commanded us to use those words. It is a matter of obedience.

Oh so now saying other share His Life with us is different than being mediator. Gotcha!

Again you are being insulting. His moral standing is not yours to judge. What you are doing is defaming a “hypothetical” priest in order to defame what Jesus put into place.

Jesus said

Hmmm according to you Jesus was wrong in telling them to do so since they weren’t perfect and they would then be another mediator

The priesthood you share in is not the ordained priesthood

For further information
Part I-I. The Common Priesthood of the Faithful and the Ministerial Priesthood

Friend I am not trying to “insult” you…but answer the question of the OP…go back and readi it.

As far as the “hypothetical priest” point…do you deny that a priests moral and religous standing has nothing at all to do with them being able to “confect” the sacrament? Even if a priest has become an athiest…or an “unrepentat child molester” or a “uncelibate” priest who beds a deifferent woman every night, he still is able to speak the ‘special words’ of consecration and confect the sacrament…is this not so? A totallly bereft priest who has no belief what soever in what he is doing can still confect the sacraments? Is that not so? How could such a priest stand “in Christ’s stead” when his life is 180 degrees oppsite of Christ in every way? Is this not Catholic teaching? Please…answer…this is one of the things I can’t get my mind around…in answer to the OP’s question…I have answered…if I have not been gentle enough perhaps the OP should withdraw their questin since an honest straight forward answer is not acceptable.

 

[MartinJordan]

Absolutely friend!

Exactly where is this written in Scripture.? What you’re playing here is NOT what God wants. Apparently he is in your image rather you being in His. Ask Paul what he did when he got the Words of Jesus? He went to,those who heard,the Word first. Always go to the Community of Believers. No lone ranger stuff

MJ

 

[Publisher]

Since it does not discuss the Eucharist itself but only how to give thanks your point is moot.
But it does leave the question give thanks for what?
Eucharist by definition is the commemoration of the Last Supper

A different view?

What you state here is not supported by the Didache.

This is the cup of Blood that is being given thanks to the Father. It was made know by Jesus to us that is Jesus told us that it was His Blood.

Perfectly in line with Catholic Teaching.

I don’t see where there is anything different in our belief. A belief taught by the Apostles. A belief that is the Bible.

“Eucharist” means thanksgiving…Friends give thanks each First Day for the Light Within revealed and experienced in our lives…and the lives of “every man” Where in the Didache does it mention “blood”? Where in the Didche does it mention “flesh” being confected? Where in the Didache are the words 'This is my body…this is my blood" occure?

 

[FoundGodOutside]

BUT my friend, is that WHERE God COMMANDS YOU TO BE?

[CONFIRMED AS A CATHOLIC -your decision!] .

And dear friend; you haven’t FOUND God OUTSIDE the ONLY Church and Faith he himself founded; guides and protects. You have accepted a false god.

Pray about it!

What I came to believe is after Catholic laity took away the welcome mat, told me I was not a Catholic which in effect was denying me my Baptism and Confirmation, and told me to leave simply because I was not a perfectly faithful, practicing Catholic, that yes I am where God wants me to be. Because afterall if the Catholic Church is His one Church and God wanted me or anyone else to be among you, the way I see it is Catholics wouldn’t tell people to leave. As it seems to me detrimental to the goal of saving souls when on one hand Catholics believe they are in the one Church but then they tell imperfect people like me to leave it if we fail to live up to standards. To me a church is a hospital for sinners. Not only a place for the healthiest most holy to abide. The ironic thing in my case is hierarchy didn’t agree with the laity. But a person only has so many cheeks to turn and can be struck by others for only so long before they become beaten down, tired and weary.

But in any case no even Confirmation was not my decision. I was still in elementary school. Barely in 5th grade.

And thank you for the opinion about my faith and belief in Whom I’ve found based from the faith vantage point of your perch and experience. But actually no. It is my experience that I have found God.

See I accept the true God who said in Matthew 18:20:

"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

But I wasn’t aware of it if the Catholic Church now no longer believes the rest of us Christian souls have none of His truths and we are now worshiping a false God. Seems strange to me then for the Catholic Church to still accept other ecclesial communties as Christian or to accept baptisms performed in them.

Nevertheless my friend, rest assured I have spent more time praying about it than you may realize. I pray everyday.

I hope this helps you understand my journey with God. And I offer you the sign of peace. Peace be with you.

 

[Publisher]

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Christ commanded His disciples. Imagine that! Christ choosing men over a collection of books to make disciples… The Church points to Christ, The Pope points to Christ, Mary points to Christ, the Saints point to Christ, all must point to Christ.

We have men pointing other men to Christ, it is Christ command and it is not subject to interpretation as He did not leave any other options. It is not an interpretation either, Christ commands it: Go therefore and make disciples… baptizing… Christ commands it, we obey it.

And it is Christ and He alone that I go to…the One you are pointing to IS the One I seek and approach…without a human mediator to “confect” a sacrament…or perform a ritual for me to receive His grace…I go to Him and Him alone…I am grateful for those who “point” to Him…but is like the Buddhist saying…“the finger that points to the moon is not the moon”…The one who points to Christ is not Christ…if I must go thru another human to get to Him…why point to Him in the first place? It’s not like a “treasure hunt”…I must follow the clues and go from one spot to the next to finally reach the treasure…“We have this Treasure in earthen vessels”…The Treasure is mine already…“A merchant went and sold all he had to buy a field as there was a Pearl of Great Price buried there”…I have found the Pearl.

 

[Publisher]

Wait a second, I thought Quakers were tolerant of other beliefs? Aren’t we all a priesthood of believers? I’m a priest, you’re a priest, etc… and Christ is our Mediator.

So, in a sense, why not just think of us as Quakers, Publisher? Quakers who believe God, by the power of the Holy Spirit, has spoken to us and called us to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

Perhaps that will make Catholicism a bit more palatable…

.

My answer is why I cannot accept Catholic belief…do you think it is intolerant to speak to the OP’s questions with an honest answer? And just a note…I do think of you as Quakers…Quakers who are following the Light Within seeking the Reality of Faith…you just seem for some reason to need the “rituals” and “rites” to “See” the Light…not all of us do…so why begrude my Experience? I certainly don’t begrudge yours…just seeking to explain whay I can’t accept your understanding. It makes no sense to me when I already have access to the One Mediator and One Priest…why go thru another seeking the Reality, when I have experienced the Reality of which your sacraments point to without them?

 

[FoundGodOutside]

The objection is not so much that ‘you believe x’ and ‘I believe y’. The objection is the claim that the Catholic faith is ‘just one among many’. That is relativism.

Since there is only one truth, that means certain claims are mutually exclusive. For example, if we say Jesus founded the Catholic Church and you say Jesus did not found the Catholic Church, then the laws of logic dictate that we cannot both be right, one is necessarily wrong.

No it’s not. I never said someone is not wrong. Merely that it takes faith before you come to believe you are right.

 

[FoundGodOutside]

THANK YOU

That is precisely the “point” & why I’m the OP of this string. I CAn prove the catholic position and challange any other faith to:

1. Disprove [not opinions; facts] the Catholic authority granted by Christ persoanlly and exclusively.
2. To prove and justify there own faith beliefs and WHY God both permits and accpets it. Again with evidence; not opinions PLEASE:thumbsup:
3. True faith can and does only come by and through God Himself [Grace]. It is iniated by God and granted solely by God. God can have only One set of beliefs. Anything else is very human origin.

Pat Miron PJM here on CAF

Beyond that you’re not going to accept what others say about their faith, it’s pointless for anyone to try to prove faith. That’s why they are known as faiths. Even yours is called the Catholic faith.

 

[Publisher]

Exactly where is this written in Scripture.? What you’re playing here is NOT what God wants. Apparently he is in your image rather you being in His. Ask Paul what he did when he got the Words of Jesus? He went to,those who heard,the Word first. Always go to the Community of Believers. No lone ranger stuff

MJ

Ahh, I always knew Catholics believed they had a special power to look into men’s souls and know their intermost thoughts.

Or perhaps you alone have this “ability”:shrug.

Now according to you…you 'attack" the person who can’t accept your beleifs because…why?

I do got to the Communtiy of Believers…each First Day…as a community…as a “society” we experience His Presence in our midst…as I’m sure your community does…He is the Same Lord and Saviour…He makes Himself known thur the means we are able to embrace Him…His Love and Mercy is deeper…more profound than we can conceive of…He will be with those when "two or three are gathered together in His name…“He is in their midst”…is He not? he gave no qualifiers other than “in my Name”. We have much more than “two or three” in the Meeting I attend.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

And it is Christ and He alone that I go to…the One you are pointing to IS the One I seek and approach…without a human mediator to “confect” a sacrament…or perform a ritual for me to receive His grace…I go to Him and Him alone…I am grateful for those who “point” to Him…but is like the Buddhist saying…“the finger that points to the moon is not the moon”…The one who points to Christ is not Christ…if I must go thru another human to get to Him…why point to Him in the first place? It’s not like a “treasure hunt”…I must follow the clues and go from one spot to the next to finally reach the treasure…“We have this Treasure in earthen vessels”…The Treasure is mine already…“A merchant went and sold all he had to buy a field as there was a Pearl of Great Price buried there”…I have found the Pearl.

Friend, I go to Christ without a mediator. I do, however, belong to His Church. The Church teaches me and protects me, the Priests help me understand the mysteries of the Faith better, they help me become a disciple. And in return, I go out to the world and make more disciples. Not for my glory, but for Christ’s Glory. My works are not mine but Christ’s. In like manner the works of the Church are not the Church’s but of Christ. Christ is the head and we compose His body, it is most humbling. I can’t see the Church apart from Christ because the Church belong’s to Christ.

 

[FoundGodOutside]

And it is Christ and He alone that I go to…the One you are pointing to IS the One I seek and approach…

Well said Publisher. I think each of us on our faith journeys, Quaker in your case, Catholic in theirs, etc are doing just that. Striving to the best we can based on our own life experiences to walk with Him and see the light as you put it.

I learned something though. I didn’t know Friends think of others as Quakers who are following the Light too. That’s cool to know. I think on that note I’m going to sign off now and leave us all with a :grouphug: Peace be with all seeking His embrace.

 

[Publisher]

Friend, I go to Christ without a mediator. I do, however, belong to His Church. The Church teaches me and protects me, the Priests help me understand the mysteries of the Faith better, they help me become a disciple. And in return, I go out to the world and make more disciples. Not for my glory, but for Christ’s Glory. My works are not mine but Christ’s. In like manner the works of the Church are not the Church’s but of Christ. Christ is the head and we compose His body, it is most humbling. I can’t see the Church apart from Christ because the Church belong’s to Christ.

Wonderful friend…I rejoice with you…I too am a member hof His Body…His “community” …his “ecclesisa”…His Church…His “society” it is in Him and Him alone that we are One…if we serve the same Lord, which I believe we do, we are One…it is not dependant on me for you to accept that…it tis only dependant on me to accept YOU as a member of His Body…how you embrace me is out of my hands…what is in my hands is that I embrace you as a member of the Same Body I belong to.

 

[Publisher]

Well said Publisher. I think each of us on our faith journeys, Quaker in your case, Catholic in theirs, etc are doing just that. Striving to the best we can based on our own life experiences to walk with Him and see the light as you put it.

I learned something though. I didn’t know Friends think of others as Quakers who are following the Light too. That’s cool to know. I think on that note I’m going to sign off now and leave us all with a :grouphug: Peace be with all seeking His embrace.

“Quaker” is a name given to us by those who sought to shame us…we called them to “Quake in the power of the Lord”…so “Quaker” fit…we call ourselves “Friends” because Jesus did…“Up to now, I have called you servants, but now, I call you friends”…so while not every “friend” is a Quaker…every “friend” is a friend.

California Yearly Meeting had a “slogan”…Did you ever meet a Quaker and find out he was a Friend?"

In the first chapter of John there is a verse that has been called the “Quaker verse”…There is a Light coming into the world which enlightens every man"…we each share in the same Light Within.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Wonderful friend…I rejoice with you…I too am a member hof His Body…His “community” …his “ecclesisa”…His Church…His “society” it is in Him and Him alone that we are One…if we serve the same Lord, which I believe we do, we are One…it is not dependant on me for you to accept that…it tis only dependant on me to accept YOU as a member of His Body…how you embrace me is out of my hands…what is in my hands is that I embrace you as a member of the Same Body I belong to.

Thank you friend. I embrace you in Christ, although I am unable to comprehend your beliefs and the reasons behind them; I do, however, pray we can be united to Christ, our Lord, for all ages.

 

[adrift]

Friend I am not trying to “insult” you…but answer the question of the OP…go back and readi it.

The tenth reading isn’t any better than the first. You weren’t just answering the OP you were being disrespectful. You used the words “magic words” when you could get the same thought across by saying the specific words must be used.
You said Even a priest in mortal sin living a leacherous life and denying the very God… Could have been stated as a priest in sin.
It isn’t that you gave your opinion but how.

As far as the “hypothetical priest” point…do you deny that a priests moral and religious standing has nothing at all to do with them being able to “confect” the sacrament? Even if a priest has become an athiest…or an “unrepentat child molester” or a “uncelibate” priest who beds a deifferent woman every night, he still is able to speak the ‘special words’ of consecration and confect the sacrament…is this not so? A totallly bereft priest who has no belief what soever in what he is doing can still confect the sacraments? Is that not so?

Again you state your point in a most unchristian way. The answer to your question was decided long ago as another has already pointed out. No a priest doesn’t have to be perfect or sinless to carry out what Jesus commanded. Jesus knew the sinfulness of man and still He chose to have them represent Him.

 

[benjohnson]

You weren’t just answering the OP you were being disrespectful. You used the words “magic words” when you could get the same thought across by saying the specific words must be used.

Perhaps keep in mind that reading a response over the internet can often-times seem more dour than a response given in person - that often we can’t read their good nature as someone is typing in their reply.

Though his repines is a bit course, I can vouch that Publisher has a history of kindness on these forums.