Forbidden to lector or cantor

[Penitant]

Cygnus X1,

Which gives more glory to God: signing and serving or not signing and not serving?

Pax Tecum,
Zach

 

[Cygnus_X1]

For the OP, please consider contacting St. Joseph’s Foundation in San Antonio, TX for advice. They are wonderful in supporting the rights of the laity.

That’s the second-best suggestion. Thanks!

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Cygnus X1,

Which gives more glory to God: signing and serving or not signing and not serving?

Pax Tecum,
Zach

Zach,

An irrelevant question. I’d rather abstain and know that I’m standing up for what’s right than be a pawn in a faulty, over-reactive process.

 

[Penitant]

Zach,

An irrelevant question. I’d rather abstain and know that I’m standing up for what’s right than be a pawn in a faulty, over-reactive process.

It’s not an irrelevant question. It’s the only one that matters. If you don’t think so, then why do you want to serve anyways?

Pax Tecum,
Zach

 

[Cygnus_X1]

It’s not an irrelevant question. It’s the only one that matters. If you don’t think so, then why do you want to serve anyways?

Pax Tecum,
Zach

It misses the entire point. It doesn’t matter what does or doesn’t give glory to God.

I will not serve at the cost of my integrity.

 

[Penitant]

It misses the entire point. It doesn’t matter what does or doesn’t give glory to God.

I will not serve at the cost of my integrity.

…“It doesn’t matter what does or doesn’t give glory to God.”…

Well then, what are your reasons for wanting to serve?

Pax Tecum,
Penitant

 

[hopefull]

I think Cygnus XI is giving more glory to God by standing up for what is right, and being an example to the rest of the parish that sometimes we have to suffer for what we believe (and losing a ministry is certainly suffering) than to knuckle under to the pressure, and create an environment that makes it harder for others to stand up for what they believe. And Cyngnus XI is certainly in the minority, because most people would rationalize it away, or not even think about it and just blindly follow. Sometimes one even has to overturn the tables in the temple, or call those in authority “whitened sepluchres” to make the point. Jesus certainly wasn’t a wimp. If he had knuckled under to the establishment, where would we all be?

 

[jpjd]

Here is someone who:

1. dismisses every opposing comment without addressing it.
2. who is not concerned about the best interests of the children or the Church.

Therefore, this person must have an ax to grind with the Church.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Which gives more glory to God: signing and serving or not signing and not serving?

You neglict the option of not signing because that is the best way to serve at the time.

---

**Those corporal works of mercy can be a real thorn in a person’s side at times, but they do serve God. **

 

[Penitant]

You neglict the option of not signing because that is the best way to serve at the time.

---

**Those corporal works of mercy can be a real thorn in a person’s side at times, but they do serve God. **

If this is the case, the Cygnus should not be looking for some way around it, but rather try to discuss it with the priest/parish/diocese.

Unfortunately, Cygnus has already stated that this is not about glorifying God.

Pax Tecum,
Zach

 

[DavidinStLouis]

This is a perfect example of taking the situation to far… … …You know I go to Mass and there are kids there, do I now need to get cleared?

Very insightful! And it does point out the “overboardedness” of those overeaching scenarios.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

If this is the case, the Cygnus should not be looking for some way around it, but rather try to discuss it with the priest/parish/diocese.

Unfortunately, Cygnus has already stated that this is not about glorifying God.

Pax Tecum,
Zach

I agree with you.
**I didn’t care for his previous comment a bit and it does not reflect MY opinion. **

---

Aside from that though, he has said:

---

I’ve already talked to /argued with the Archdiocese. They’re unwilling to budge; hence, so am I. I’d post their reply to me, but that would violate board guidelines.

My next step would necessarily be to Rome, or to a court.

 

[jmcrae]

If you have nothing to hide, then you wouldn’t care what people said about you.

The foundation of the legal system is the right to know two things:
*
Who accuses me?* and *Of what am I accused? *

When the right to know the answers to those two questions is waived - for any reason - you have lost the rule of law. I would fight it.

 

[DavidinStLouis]

Our first obligation is to the children. All of you who object to your diocese’s measures, you think you’re offended??? How about those children who were abused??? Why don’t you go talk to one sometime.

You, as lector and cantor, become an authority figure to the children, whether you realize it or not. I am lector and EMHC and I’ve had children I don’t even know come up and talk to me because they think they know me because they see me so often up front. Any leadership figure who children might come into contact with must be screened. Not just you approaching them, but them approaching you. That includes lectors and cantors. Signing a form is a small price to pay to protect the innocence of a child. You should sign that form with gladness and know that you are doing your part to protect the youth of your parish.

Instead of being indignant, you should be leaping for joy that your diocese is taking, not just measures, but strict measures, to do what they can to screen out the vermin who prey on our children.

Again, the issue here isn’t that people are saying that children should not be protected. The issue of this entire discussion is the matter of the “right to confront your accuser” as it applies to the application process and ‘accusations’ that might be levied against an applicant by someone. This is a legal and procedural matter that’s being debated. Right?

 

[John_Lilburne]

In terms of liturgical law, the priest makes the choice in who does the ministries. The exception is if someone has been instituted as a lector, (using the ceremony of institution, usually by a bishop). Perhaps this is part of the reason that so few lectors are instituted.

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“99. The lector is instituted to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture, with the exception of the Gospel. He may also announce the intentions for the Prayer of the Faithful and, in the absence of a psalmist, proclaim the Psalm between the readings. In the Eucharistic Celebration, the lector has his own proper office (cf. below, nos. 194-198), which he must exercise personally.
Other Ministries …
101. In the absence of an instituted lector, other laypersons may be commissioned to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture. They should be truly suited to perform this function and should receive careful preparation, so that the faithful by listening to the readings from the sacred texts may develop in their hearts a warm and living love for Sacred Scripture. …
104. It is fitting that there be a cantor or a choir director to lead and sustain the people’s singing. When in fact there is no choir, it is up to the cantor to lead the different chants, with the people taking part. …
107. The liturgical duties that are not proper to the priest or the deacon and are listed above (cf. nos. 100-106) may also be entrusted by a liturgical blessing or a temporary deputation to suitable lay persons chosen by the pastor or rector of the church. All should observe the norms established by the Bishop for his diocese regarding the office of those who serve the priest at the altar.”

The “temporary deputation” is temporary. The pastor can end it without needing to give much of a reason. For example, he has a dream and the angel Gabriel tells him not to allow someone to be a lector. A person is too old or too young. The are too many women or men. Someone will not sign a document. etc.

I have been instituted as a lector, and feel a strong case can be made that failing to use an instituted lector when available is not following liturigcal laws. The case was made through a church tribunal in 2000. It was unsuccessful, but I think would be more likely to suceed today, with the 2002 Roman Missal having been published. The case can be read about at romanrite.com/Tribunal.html .

 

[Trelow]

It misses the entire point. It doesn’t matter what does or doesn’t give glory to God.

I will not serve at the cost of my integrity.

If you want to play at someone else’s house, you have to play by their rules. If not you can take your ball and go home.

Your objection is nothing more than an exercise in pride.

If you feel you have a legitimate complaint you should have taken it up with the Archdiocese in the proper form. But instead you came here waving your apparent chains of oppression, trying only to stir up emotion and rally support for your cause.

Legally?

You have no case. It’s not required for you to volunteer. Therefor nearly any stipulation can be placed on volunteers.

Is this just to protect the Archdiocese from lawsuits?

Probably. But that’s what you have to do thanks to our indigent and self serving culture. If not lawsuits are filed, parishes are closed, and the faithful are without a shepherd.

You sir, have done nothing to help your situation with this thread.

 

[thechrismyster]

i’m getting a kick out of these replies this morning…

first off, to the posters turning this around into a questioning of the OP’s motives and intentions… just stop it. thats all, stop.

This IS a Catholic board, we are (mainly) all Catholic, but when someone has a beef, and it’s turned into a “your either for us or against us” from the rest of the crowd, all that does is show the audience who has lost the ability to debate because their feelings are too strong for or against either side…

The Church seems have a CYA clause that’s being applied in a blanket way.
thats dumb.
but with lawyers today, it’s just the way it is. and the Church is of God second, of this world, first. it would seem in this case.
really, how come no one has said if a rapist or abuser has repented, we should turn the other cheek, forgive 7 x 70 and rejoice the prodigal son has returned. would you REALLY let a reformed child abuser coach your kid? me neither.

really, if you’re Catholic, and you practice what Christ preaches on forgiveness, letting the Father separate the wheat from the chaff, forgiveness and stone throwing etc etc… a raping, child abusing, wife beating murderer, out on parole, having gone to confession and made proper apologies to all involved, should be a worthy soccer coach for your beloved little tykes travel team… in theory.

the OP has a real point about stupid laws that do nothing except make everyone on the bargaining side of the table be all happy happy at their ability to enact new ways of doing things.

the only real solution is for the OP to not volunteer, and all those that have no problem with it, volunteer.

its as simple as that

 

[Marauder]

If you feel you have a legitimate complaint you should have taken it up with the Archdiocese in the proper form. But instead you came here waving your apparent chains of oppression, trying only to stir up emotion and rally support for your cause.

If you actually read his posts, he has taken it up with his Archdiocese.

You sir, have done nothing to help your situation with this thread.

I think you need to step back and look at the charity in your post. People on this board complain all the time about things going on in their parish, diocese, etc. Just because you do not like what he may be saying, doesn’t mean he can’t say it or it isn’t helping him.

Honestly I think many people on here are taking that attitude with him that since he is complaining he must have something to hide. It’s attitudes like this that lead to actions like in Germany. I honestly believe that anyone that is in a role where they will be in direct contact with kids they should be cleared, but requiring volunteers for an ADULT RCIA program to get cleared just because someone may bring a kid to the class as was mentioned in one post is going to far. It is the putting out a candle with a fire hose method of dealing with an issue.

P.S. If you want to infer I have something to hide even though I haven’t gone through the Catholic church process I have gone through the process in scouting and the United Methodist Church since that is where the troop I work with is sponsered and like the OP I also use to have a government security clearance.

 

[maryjk]

You sir, have done nothing to help your situation with this thread.

In reality he has two more options that he did not think about. Going to the state to see if the document would hold up in a court of law and contacting St. Joseph’s Foundation in San Antonio, TX for information. So the thread has helped his situation.

 

[thechrismyster]

But that’s what you have to do thanks to our indigent and self serving culture. If not lawsuits are filed, parishes are closed, and the faithful are without a shepherd.

if there was no molestation, there wouldn’t have been lawsuits.
it’s not the CULTURE that caused the lawsuits… it’s men with no self control.

keep blame focused like a laser.

/of course, cue moderator warning to stay on topic.
//this would be fodder for a new thread
//back to the OP now!