Forbidden to pray with whom?

[carn]

In light of the 32 page discussion about praying with muslims, i am interested, what are the rules regarding praying with/alongside people of other faiths.

I am quite certain there are rules or at least rules can be derived, because praying next to someone offering a prayer to Satan is probably wrong. Baal wouldn’t be a good idea either.

But if the person would replace the word “Satan”/“Baal” with “god” this cannot change much, as the name is not the problem, but the idea behind or the creature supposedly called by that name and the mindset and the goals associated with the prayer.

Similarly praying with a wiccan caould be a problem and that independently upon whether the wiccan prays to the goddess or her male counterpart.

So under what circumstances is it problematic to pray next to someone, who although offering a prayer to someone he calls “god” has some problematic ideas in the baggage making the whole thing wrong?

(And please do not mention Islam, go to the other thread for that.)

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

In light of the 32 page discussion about praying with muslims, i am interested, what are the rules regarding praying with/alongside people of other faiths.

I am quite certain there are rules or at least rules can be derived, because praying next to someone offering a prayer to Satan is probably wrong. Baal wouldn’t be a good idea either.

But if the person would replace the word “Satan”/“Baal” with “god” this cannot change much, as the name is not the problem, but the idea behind or the creature supposedly called by that name and the mindset and the goals associated with the prayer.

Similarly praying with a wiccan caould be a problem and that independently upon whether the wiccan prays to the goddess or her male counterpart.

So under what circumstances is it problematic to pray next to someone, who although offering a prayer to someone he calls “god” has some problematic ideas in the baggage making the whole thing wrong?

(And please do not mention Islam, go to the other thread for that.)

It is impossible.
If you pray at the side of, then each one will pray to his god/God/Baal/Satan, whatever.
If you pray aloud and at the same time and connected to the same Entity it is impossible for each religion has a different concept of the Entity so , actually you are not praying to the same entity.

 

[carn]

It is impossible.

Ok, but that doesn’t change, that under some circumstances it seems to be permissable (e.g. Assisi likely was not against Churchs teaching) but under other circumstances it would be not permissable (e.g. i suspect wiccan an satanists were not welcome in Assisi and if some had come, the Pope would not have participated).

 

[WoundedIcon]

Ok, but that doesn’t change, that under some circumstances it seems to be permissable (e.g. Assisi likely was not against Churchs teaching) but under other circumstances it would be not permissable (e.g. i suspect wiccan an satanists were not welcome in Assisi and if some had come, the Pope would not have participated).

Weren’t there pagans there though? I mean, a pagan is a pagan, regardless of whether they’re an African or a Wiccan goth. Culturally speaking, the latter may squick us out more but does it really make a difference if they’re both serving idols?

I could understand what you’re saying about Wiccans if you think they’re malevolent in some way, but that’s still just a cultural misunderstanding. They shouldn’t be lumped with Satanists due to the fact that their religion teaches them not to harm others or themselves (although that’s kind of vague I admit) and if they’re following their religion properly they will refuse to use even “good” magic on others without their permission. And I think we misunderstand Satanists here too, although I agree it would be pointless to invite them to something like Assisi. They usually don’t worship Satan but are just hedonists who take him as an example. In other words, they don’t pray anyways although they may take part in occult practices.

 

[Gorgias]

So under what circumstances is it problematic to pray next to someone, who although offering a prayer to someone he calls “god” has some problematic ideas in the baggage making the whole thing wrong?

So, in other words, you’re not asking about ecumenical prayer with other Christians (whose baptism is valid), but instead, about prayer with – for example – Mormons, who say that they’re praying to “God” and “Jesus”, but who have greatly different ideas about who they are, as compared to who we say they are?

 

[bmullins]

I would imagine that praying would be encouraged in that you would be exposing them to prayer to the true God. I don’t think God wants us to avoid praying to him because someone else is there who doesn’t believe in him. It is a moment for showing your faith, and expressing your love for God in words.

 

[WoundedIcon]

I would imagine that praying would be encouraged in that you would be exposing them to prayer to the true God. I don’t think God wants us to avoid praying to him because someone else is there who doesn’t believe in him. It is a moment for showing your faith, and expressing your love for God in words.

Then again, we have to take care because we may very well be encouraging them into an act of idolatry. Even if you don’t pray together/agree in prayer like how we pray the general intercessions at Mass, you’re still making them think it’s alright to commit that sin.

I think a good rule is that if you wouldn’t ask them to pray for you, you shouldn’t pray with them.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Don’t pray with a wiccan/satanist.

They are praying to a demon. You are praying to God. You don’t want to do that. You can pray for them, but don’t pray with them.

 

[WoundedIcon]

Don’t pray with a wiccan/satanist.

They are praying to a demon. You are praying to God. You don’t want to do that. You can pray for them, but don’t pray with them.

Yes, but don’t forget - so are Hindus, Native Americans, African spiritualists, some Buddhists, and so on. Honestly, it’s just as bad to have an African spiritualist at Assisi as it is to have a Wiccan. But you don’t see people flipping their lids over it like they would if the guy were white and wearing all black and purple Also, witchcraft isn’t exclusive to goth kids, pretty much most of the non-Abrahamic faiths practice it. Really, let’s drop the discrimination here.

Also, there’s a good chance that most Wiccans don’t even believe in demons, so don’t act like they’re somehow intentionally serving Satan. He’s only a myth to most of them. Rather, they believe in the Goddess and God, so really there’s about as much ill will in for them in praying to those deities as there is in a Hindu praying to Krishna or something.

Don’t mistake me for defending their religions. I’m not, I hate them. But we still need to be charitable and discern people’s understandings and motivations properly and not just paint with broad strokes. Otherwise we will be stuck with a bunch of pissed off anti-Christ witches. And in many ways it will be our fault that they got that way.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Yes, but don’t forget - so are Hindus, Native Americans, African spiritualists, some Buddhists, and so on. Honestly, it’s just as bad to have an African spiritualist at Assisi as it is to have a Wiccan. But you don’t see people flipping their lids over it like they would if the guy were white and wearing all black and purple Also, witchcraft isn’t exclusive to goth kids, pretty much most of the non-Abrahamic faiths practice it. Really, let’s drop the discrimination here.

Also, there’s a good chance that most Wiccans don’t even believe in demons, so don’t act like they’re somehow intentionally serving Satan. He’s only a myth to most of them. Rather, they believe in the Goddess and God, so really there’s about as much ill will in for them in praying to those deities as there is in a Hindu praying to Krishna or something.

I was going by what the OP was stating. If I had to name every group that was a dangerous person to pray with it would take a while. You’re leaving out quite a few as well.

Wiccans are neopagans. They know what they are doing. They worship other gods the same as African spiritualists do. Wiccans/Witches have virtually NO moral compass, so, no, I actually could say that I feel much less safe with them praying to their goddess than Hindus to krishna.

Most witches are angry at God anyway, so they turn to worshipping the “goddess”. They have been in the midst of Christianity for a long time, which is something I cannot say is true for many hindus or African spiritualists.

 

[Lokabrenna]

I think a good rule is that if you wouldn’t ask them to pray for you, you shouldn’t pray with them.

I agree with this. If you wouldn’t be comfortable with my praying to Freyja or Freyr for say, healing, then don’t pray with me. I don’t think it would do either of us any good.

 

[Sufjon]

In light of the 32 page discussion about praying with muslims, i am interested, what are the rules regarding praying with/alongside people of other faiths.

I am quite certain there are rules or at least rules can be derived, because praying next to someone offering a prayer to Satan is probably wrong. Baal wouldn’t be a good idea either.

But if the person would replace the word “Satan”/“Baal” with “god” this cannot change much, as the name is not the problem, but the idea behind or the creature supposedly called by that name and the mindset and the goals associated with the prayer.

Similarly praying with a wiccan caould be a problem and that independently upon whether the wiccan prays to the goddess or her male counterpart.

So under what circumstances is it problematic to pray next to someone, who although offering a prayer to someone he calls “god” has some problematic ideas in the baggage making the whole thing wrong?

(And please do not mention Islam, go to the other thread for that.)

If your prayers have any merit, they will not be diminished in any way by the person next to you, or by the person three aisles down from you, or by a person across town. It is not a matter of proximity or of whether what is going on around you is what you consider to be genuine, good or evil. What matters is to make sure that what you are doing is genuine. If your prayers are of any value, they can be done without fail even in the midst of people doing outright acts of evil, which I can assure you, most people of others faiths aren’t even doing in the first place when they pray. If the “magic” can fly out of one’s prayers because of what the person next to one is doing, then one should consider whether or not what one is doing is genuine.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

From WoundedIcon:

Don’t mistake me for defending their religions. I’m not, I hate them.

This is just my unqualified opinion, but my sense is that once you get to the point where you hate, it really doesn’t matter anymore what you are praying to, or who you are praying next to.

But we still need to be charitable and discern people’s understandings and motivations properly and not just paint with broad strokes. Otherwise we will be stuck with a bunch of pissed off anti-Christ witches. And in many ways it will be our fault that they got that way

Again, just my opinion, but surely there have to be more noble reasons to be charitable to others than simply so they won’t hate you back.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[hn160]

We can only pray with orthodox Christians but not with Mormans, Jehovah Wittness, Muslims or any other non-Christian religions. To do so would give the impression that all religions are equal to the Christian God. This may not seem politically correct, but that is how it is.

 

[WoundedIcon]

From WoundedIcon:

This is just my unqualified opinion, but my sense is that once you get to the point where you hate, it really doesn’t matter anymore what you are praying to, or who you are praying next to.

Again, just my opinion, but surely there have to be more noble reasons to be charitable to others than simply so they won’t hate you back.

Your friend,
Sufjon

1. I meant I hate the religion and not the practitioners (although I see your signature and realize you would disagree with the morality of that… but that’s just traditional Christian teaching), and 2) I was trying to protect these people from stereotypes, which is hardly something that someone who hates them personally would do. I never said anything about being nice to protect myself, but was trying to show the others that if we hurt these people by painting them with such stereotypes then we’ll only harden them in their positions. It’s nearly impossible for a person to convince someone that they’re right when everything they say about that person is wrong.

 

[Sufjon]

I meant I hate the religion and not the practitioners (although I see your signature and realize you would disagree with the morality of that… but that’s just traditional Christian teaching),

I didn’t realize that was standard Christian teaching. I have heard the catch phrase “love the sinner, hate the sin,” but usually used by someone who has just exhibited hate of some sort. Someone else’s religion or religious practices really have nothing to do with the hate one might have for the faiths of any of those other people, any more than a horse innocently scratching itself against a tree has anything to do with a crime committed on the other end of town. It is a condition that exists within you, and nowhere else. You are the owner of the hate, and you become it’s harbinger, and it becomes a component of your state of being. In other words, hate is hate. It has nothing to do with what you direct it at. It is a facet of your own being once you let it in. In turn, the irony with hating someone else religion is that one’s identification with a particular religious tradition actually becomes the enabler for something that cannot attend one into heaven. I suppose it could be so if heaven were a place you could gain admittance to by completing certain rites, sacraments, attending the requisite services and presenting the tokens earned by these activities at the gate. However, it is more likely a state of being attained through grace, and it is not a state of being that has any purchase in hate.

I was trying to protect these people from stereotypes, which is hardly something that someone who hates them personally would do. I never said anything about being nice to protect myself, but was trying to show the others that if we hurt these people by painting them with such stereotypes then we’ll only harden them in their positions. It’s nearly impossible for a person to convince someone that they’re right when everything they say about that person is wrong.

Perhaps I read you wrong.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

We can only pray with orthodox Christians but not with Mormans, Jehovah Wittness, Muslims or any other non-Christian religions. To do so would give the impression that all religions are equal to the Christian God. This may not seem politically correct, but that is how it is.

There is only one God. You see Him through a particular lens, and others see Him through another, but He is the creator of all, regardless of cultural experience, which is multifarious like the Creator Himself. He is not sectarian, and He calls you neither this thing or that. He simply calls, and each answers in what way they are able, in accordance with social background, ability to reason and other factors that are pretty much governed by Him in the first place. He has more to do with whether your ability to comprehend brings you to this understanding or that than you or I do.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[hn160]

There is only one God. You see Him through a particular lens, and others see Him through another, but He is the creator of all, regardless of cultural experience, which is multifarious like the Creator Himself. He is not sectarian, and He calls you neither this thing or that. He simply calls, and each answers in what way they are able, in accordance with social background, ability to reason and other factors that are pretty much governed by Him in the first place. He has more to do with whether your ability to comprehend brings you to this understanding or that than you or I do.

Your friend,
Sufjon

That may your view, but Christ said no one comes to the Father except through Him. No orthodox Christian could pray with non-Christian because that would blaspheme the Triune God and give credence to other gods.

 

[Sufjon]

That may your view, but Christ said no one comes to the Father except through Him. No orthodox Christian could pray with non-Christian because that would blaspheme the Triune God and give credence to other gods.

Hi HN160: Of course I would see that as a profound misunderstanding of the words of Christ based on the fact that the original interpretations were made by Christ’s followers had no real inclination of the larger continuity that exists among the world’s religions insofar as God coming among us in human form is concerned. It certainly was a novelty for the Jews, but not so for those living on the great subcontinent of India . Of course, being God, Jesus would have known that, but He had to keep the limitations of his audience in mind, and therefore the point would have been superfluous. Jesus was not the first nor the last. His was but one body that housed the same all pervasive consciousness that has taken on human form numerous times. Of course this is understandable when considering the cultural background of the people that God came among as Jesus. God came in human form before Jesus said the exact same things about a thousand years prior. this means that contact with God is not exclusively a Judeo-Christian experience, but much broader, unless the event in Palestine was simply borrowed from what happened before in other cultures. Either way, all the Mahvatars (God in human form) were one in the same, or one was copying the other, and Jesus came later, although I think He was for real. Now, of course you can take what Jesus said in the context in which you see it, however, I would argue that it was the Christ Consciousness in Jesus that was saying that no one comes to the Father except through me, not a set of lips hair and fingernails named Jesus. Specifically, unless you can awaken that consciousness in yourself, where it lies dormant in all creatures, you will not come to the Father. Rather too nuanced a meaning for the rough-hewn men who followed Jesus around Judea, but the meaning they took would suffice for the time. They saw a Mahavatar come among them, suffer execution and rise from the dead, and their natural proclivity would be that this assigned a primacy of importance to the body, rather than what it housed. Not as excusable a mistake this day in age.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[couponfit]

Ok, but that doesn’t change, that under some circumstances it seems to be permissable (e.g. Assisi likely was not against Churchs teaching) but under other circumstances it would be not permissable (e.g. i suspect wiccan an satanists were not welcome in Assisi and if some had come, the Pope would not have participated).

The flaw maybe in the question: Who can you pray with? You are not asking where can a catholic go to church.

I will answer the question who can you not pray with! But that’s not the same as congregating with.

Well, look at it like this. If you go to Catholic Church, do you know what religion in the church everyone is? They walk in the front door like everyone else, so who’s what label? During the sign of peace, do you pause to decide for yourself if one is a “wiccan” or a “atheist” or is an “abortion doctor” before offering them a sign of peace?

normally interfaith prayer is done in interfaith locations, common places of agreement.

So if you are asking can I go to the basement of building at midnight and pray in a devil ritual: The answer is no! You cannot congregate outside your own faith even in an orthodox or a protestant service (the word congregate means more than just pray and it means more than to simply be present in a service). You can enter a protestant church and pray, and you can do that at home, but you are praying within your own doctrines.

But if you are asking something more common, like can I stand in front of an abortion clinic and offer open prayer for all who pass bye, and can anyone who wishes to pray next to me join in…then the answer is yes. If an abortionist comes out of the clinic and says, “please pray for my soul”…then I would! I know of a story where every day for months a staff member of an abortion clinic received prayer until they finally quit and became a catholic and became a huge proponent of pro-life. Roe from Roe versus Wade received prayer before conversion. I would submit that those with the greatest sin need the greater prayer and the sinful need us to come to them in prisons, in the poverty, in their homes, and in places surrounded by sin. Ha, today, we found out Casey Anthony is likely in a church in Palm Beach Florida living inside it. I said aloud, “why a church”…and my wife replied, “if you were Casey Anthony wouldn’t you be in church to save travel time”. Look at Noriega he hid out in a church to receive God before surrendering himself to the Army.

When you are praying you are praying your own prayers from your own perspective! If for some reason you are being read a prayer by a minister who begins to offer a prayer you do not agree in, then I would quite honestly stop praying with them and start praying for them. You’re not a robot, you have a brain so listen to what is said and be careful during interfaith assembly. This is why most of those in interfaith prayer are very solid in their faith already.

Who can you pray with: Any child of God
Who can you pray for: Any child of God
Who do you pray to: God (The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit)
Can I pick the best parts of different religions and mold them into my own: No
Can I pray to the Devil: No
Can I pray to the Anti-Christ: No
Can I pray to the Unholy Spirit: No