Forced conversion in past

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Hmmm, if it’s true, which of course if it’s on Wikipedia then it HAS to be true, I would counter with, how many Christians were forced into either slavery, death or conversion by Muslims?

People in both religions have made mistakes, but there is a great quote out there that says, “you can never move to the next chapter if you keep rereading the last.” Whatever crimes, sins and mistakes have been made move on…
 
The epitaph for the history of all society will most likely read, “mistakes were made”
 
Strictly speaking, the Muslims weren’t just given the option to convert, their other option was to leave the region in which Islam was banned.

Keep in mind that all this happened after hundreds of years of Islamic invasion of Spain. There was a long history of Muslims killing and oppressing Christians in Spain already, and so the backlash when Christians returned to dominance was to try to get rid of the Moors altogether by banning their religion.

I’m not saying I think everything done here was the wisest possible path forward, but considering the context, I don’t really blame them.
 
dshix said:
Strictly speaking, the Muslims weren’t just given the option to convert, their other option was to leave the region in which Islam was banned.

Keep in mind that all this happened after hundreds of years of Islamic invasion of Spain. There was a long history of Muslims killing and oppressing Christians in Spain already, and so the backlash when Christians returned to dominance was to try to get rid of the Moors altogether by banning their religion.

I’m not saying I think everything done here was the wisest possible path forward, but considering the context, I don’t really blame them.
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Agreed. On top of that, the Muslims were still greatly feared all over Europe. Christian countries never knew when the Islamic assault would begin again. The Muslims in Spain were looked upon as a fifth column just waiting to begin the conquest all over again, and Christians in Europe were regularly assaulted and enslaved by Barbary pirates until well into the 1800s.
 
This guilt is ridiculous. We’re talking about the raping monsters who slaughtered and enslaved Christians on an industrial scale. No sympathy for them or any collaborators (Jews, Mystics, etc.)
 
I’d like to recant my previous statement, as I am reading a book on how to talk to Muslims about the Catholic faith. It seems that the Catholic Church has always taught that forced conversions or forced anything in the faith is gravely sinful and never allowed. Those that did such things are wrong and need to stop, go to confession and sin no more.

Here is the quote from the book which was written by several priests and is part of an official apologetics course.

"The Catholic Church teaches that it is gravely sinful to use force or the threat of force to compel people in matters of religious belief. Although some individual Catholics in the past have used coercion to convert people or to keep them in the Church, these people acted against the official Church teachings.

On the other hand, it is well known that Islam has always officially approved and even commanded severe penalties (including death) for those people who abandon Islam or refuse to accept it."

Sorry there are sinners in the Church, but people are sinful, I’m guessing that there may also be sinners in Islam?

The fact that people sin doesn’t make the message invalid, as The Bible says the pearl is put into clay pots. We are the clay pots, we are dirty, sinful and easily broken, the pearl (the message of Christ) doesn’t change, and is never wrong.

Besides doesn’t the Koran say “There shall be no compulsion in religion” (Sura 2:256).

So why do those who follow Islam directly disobey and approve disobedience to what is written in the Koran?
 
USMC_Convert said:
I’d like to recant my previous statement, as I am reading a book on how to talk to Muslims about the Catholic faith. It seems that the Catholic Church has always taught that forced conversions or forced anything in the faith is gravely sinful and never allowed. Those that did such things are wrong and need to stop, go to confession and sin no more.

Here is the quote from the book which was written by several priests and is part of an official apologetics course.
"The Catholic Church teaches that it is gravely sinful to use force or the threat of force to compel people in matters of religious belief. Although some individual Catholics in the past have used coercion to convert people or to keep them in the Church, these people acted against the official Church teachings.
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USMC_Convert said:
I’d like to recant my previous statement, as I am reading a book on how to talk to Muslims about the Catholic faith. It seems that the Catholic Church has always taught that forced conversions or forced anything in the faith is gravely sinful and never allowed. Those that did such things are wrong and need to stop, go to confession and sin no more.

Here is the quote from the book which was written by several priests and is part of an official apologetics course.

"The Catholic Church teaches that it is gravely sinful to use force or the threat of force to compel people in matters of religious belief. Although some individual Catholics in the past have used coercion to convert people or to keep them in the Church, these people acted against the official Church teachings.

On the other hand, it is well known that Islam has always officially approved and even commanded severe penalties (including death) for those people who abandon Islam or refuse to accept it."

Sorry there are sinners in the Church, but people are sinful, I’m guessing that there may also be sinners in Islam?

The fact that people sin doesn’t make the message invalid, as The Bible says the pearl is put into clay pots. We are the clay pots, we are dirty, sinful and easily broken, the pearl (the message of Christ) doesn’t change, and is never wrong.

Besides doesn’t the Koran say “There shall be no compulsion in religion” (Sura 2:256).

So why do those who follow Islam directly disobey and approve disobedience to what is written in the Koran?
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You should contribute your knowledge to the wiki article.
 
USMC_Convert said:
I’d like to recant my previous statement, as I am reading a book on how to talk to Muslims about the Catholic faith. It seems that the Catholic Church has always taught that forced conversions or forced anything in the faith is gravely sinful and never allowed. Those that did such things are wrong and need to stop, go to confession and sin no more.

Here is the quote from the book which was written by several priests and is part of an official apologetics course.

"The Catholic Church teaches that it is gravely sinful to use force or the threat of force to compel people in matters of religious belief. Although some individual Catholics in the past have used coercion to convert people or to keep them in the Church, these people acted against the official Church teachings.

On the other hand, it is well known that Islam has always officially approved and even commanded severe penalties (including death) for those people who abandon Islam or refuse to accept it."

Sorry there are sinners in the Church, but people are sinful, I’m guessing that there may also be sinners in Islam?

The fact that people sin doesn’t make the message invalid, as The Bible says the pearl is put into clay pots. We are the clay pots, we are dirty, sinful and easily broken, the pearl (the message of Christ) doesn’t change, and is never wrong.

Besides doesn’t the Koran say “There shall be no compulsion in religion” (Sura 2:256).

So why do those who follow Islam directly disobey and approve disobedience to what is written in the Koran?
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What then was the Inquisition about?
 
Would this count as forced conversion?
The devshirme system began in the late 14th century. Christian boys were recruited by force to serve the Ottoman government. The boys were generally taken from the Balkan provinces, converted to Islam, and then passed through a series of examinations to determine their intelligence and capabilities.
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chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/464
 
Rosebud77 said:
What then was the Inquisition about?
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The inquisition was mainly about finding false Catholics or those who came into the faith for the wrong reasons. However there were abuses, absolutely there were, the difference is that the Church not only never approved the abuses but condemned them, while Islam condones and commands it even though it is contrary to some writings in the Koran.
 
Tsuzuki said:
What did the Church do to the false Catholics and those who came into the faith for the wrong reasons?
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The Church really didn’t do much, it was more perpetrated by individuals in the name of the Church, but I’m starting to talk out of my depth now, I remember some things but it was a long time ago when i read several books, historical and religious, about the issue.

If your really interested in it I suggest my favorite book on the subject: The Church Under Attack: 500 Hundred Years That Split the Church and Scattered the Flock
 
Tsuzuki said:
Regardless of who got their hands dirty, there was no separation of church and state, so the Church can’t shift the blame on someone else.

Thanks. I’ll look into it. I really love the Catholic Church, but how the Church has handled its heretics in the past has greatly damaged its moral credibility, to the point where I can’t take it seriously on moral matters. I would like to see that credibility restored.
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ROTFL, yes there was huge separation of Church and state, in fact it was so bad that some states even attacked the Vatican and stole large quantities of religious material from her (see France also more recently look into Italy’s own attacks on the Church) and if there was no separation then how do you explain the lack of commitment to the Pope when he called for armies and navies of Europe to fight against Muslim invaders of which only King Phillip II of Spain responded with a few merchant vessels. What of the Pope practically excommunicating King Charles the Hammer for taking Church lands and funds to support his war against the invading moors?

Show me any shred of actual historical proof that the Church and the state were the same and I will shut up and not respond on this thread again. In fact going back further one of the main reasons we have a split between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church is because the Church refused to be part of the Roman state when it moved from Rome to Constantinople. They didn’t want to be part of the state, they liked the idea that the government was moving and they would be able to govern themselves without the empire looking over their shoulders. Which I might mention was the first time in history that anyone ever questioned Rome being the head of the Church, and once Rome shot down the proposal to move with the state it was never again questioned until the Protestant Reformation.

There are many other examples out there but don’t take it from me, go check it out for yourself.
 
Tsuzuki said:
Regardless of who got their hands dirty, there was no separation of church and state, so the Church can’t shift the blame on someone else.

Thanks. I’ll look into it. I really love the Catholic Church, but how the Church has handled its heretics in the past has greatly damaged its moral credibility, to the point where I can’t take it seriously on moral matters. I would like to see that credibility restored.
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In 1994, the British Broadcasting Corporation and another media group released a documentary debunking the myth of all of the alleged atrocities committed by the Spanish Inquisition. It’s available online, and downloadable.
“The Beeb” is no friend of the Catholic Church, so its involvement in this says something.

It was an eye-opener, even for this dyed-in-the-wool Catholic. It was a revelation!
The title is: “Spanish Inquisition was 99% Myth”.
Please watch it! It runs for 44 minutes:

youtube.com/watch?v=qhlAqklH0do

The same documentary with an idiotic Monty Python skit is online, as well.
Its title is: “The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition”. That’d be the original title. The non-MP one had to be given a different title.

i downloaded the non-Monty Python one, and it played back OK, so i can’t vouch for the one with the stupid skit. 🤷

Ant–Catholics don’t let blatant lies/slander get in the way of their agenda. 😦
 
Tsuzuki said:
I’m not talking about the Spanish Inquisition. I’m talking about the Roman Inquisition, which persecuted the likes of Giordano Bruno and Galileo. As an unrepentant heretic and baptized Catholic, I would have also been a target, and would have likely been executed, though I’m sure they would have been merciful about it, with lots of people praying for me as I died. [Lots of people are praying for you now! The cynicism is a bit off.]

I like the way that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has changed its ways since the 20th century, but before that, it was a monster, and the Church’s moral credibility is still damaged because of it. This is why I watch the “cafeteria” closely and pay close attention to how the Church responds to things.
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So be it!!!
The “anti-science” Church!
All the same, the Spanish Inquisition is the one almost always dragged up! It’s the most “notorious” one!
Let’s hope someone else takes advantage of that video.

As far as Galileo was concerned, (again from memory) he lived out the rest of his life, almost blind for an obvious reason, in the house of a friendly cardinal, and the penances he was supposed to perform were done by his daughter, a nun. Her Religious name was Sister Maria Celeste. (same as the Mary Celeste)
 
Tsuzuki said:
Did the Catholic Church approve of the execution of Giordano Bruno and the imprisonment of Galileo Galilei?
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I cannot speak of Giordano Bruno but as to Galileo yes they did, however it was not what everyone makes it out to be. According to what I have read he actually basically reclined very comfortably within the Church until his death.

Remember I am not saying the Church is perfect, nor am I saying that we have never committed a sin, in fact the opposite, but what I am claiming is that the Church has been widely abused, from within and without, she has suffered many lies and distortions of the truth and she has never controlled or been the state.

However as Jesus promised, not even the jaws of hell have prevailed against her! It is quite possible that at times there were more bad Catholics than good, but the teachings, the official rulings and the message has always been pure. The Church is not and has never been full of Saints, no, in fact when you see great Saints that’s when you know there were many great sinners, God raised up the Saints to bring the people back to Him.
 
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