Forced Conversions

[wisdomseeker]

I agree with wisdomseeker. The world would be a lot better if the Catholic Church was in charge. People definitely can’t be forced to convert but this increasingly secular world is scary.

Yes, without the CC, all we are left with are opinions of man which is now reigning even among many Catholics who decided to jump in the badwagon of relativism and no longer recognizes the Holy of Church of God. opinions of man about God is not the Truth., God has revealed the Truth to His Church and we better embrace His Revelation or we are going to be one of those without faith. Jesus said, “when I returned will I find any Faith.” we better take heed to this.

What we have today is a bunch of people claiming to be Christians while destroyiing the Faith of many Catholics.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

the CC is the only Church to rule all nations. she should be the one to which all nations should abide by. if any wants to be part of other belief that is fine, we dont force them. but the CC is the one Church that should rule over all. it is the Kingdom of God on earth, why dont you want His Kingdom to rule over all men?

Dear mikeyrobbie,

I take it all back.

Yikes,

Crdl2Grv

 

[wisdomseeker]

According to many on this forum, it is not possible to leave Catholicism once you’ve been baptised Catholic or taken into the Catholic Church by conversion. What would be the status of people who were converted by force, or fraud, or threat of loss? These things have certainly happened in the past, for example in Croatia during World War Two. If their consent at the time of conversion was lacking, can they present a case to a tribunal and have it declared null?

The battle is for souls and not about power over man. but i can see why you foster a democracy of beliefs. when one doesnt know the Truth, he can only advocate based on his own opinion.

 

[Kristin234]

The battle is for souls and not about power over man. but i can see why you foster a democracy of beliefs. when one doesnt know the Truth, he can only advocate based on his own opinion.

Wow wow wow.

It is funny because I have seen non Catholics say that certain people do not know the truth, and then Catholics say how dare you you should never say someone doesn’t know the truth whether they are Catholic or Protestant. Yet you find it to be perfectly okay to say someone doesn’t know the truth when you do not know them and you have no idea how their walk with God is.

Jesus Christ is Truth. To say someone doesn’t know the Truth because they are Protestant/ Catholic is to say that they do not know Jesus Christ. That is a pretty strong and confident statement that I believe no man should make.

 

[Kouyate42]

I agree with wisdomseeker. The world would be a lot better if the Catholic Church was in charge. People definitely can’t be forced to convert but this increasingly secular world is scary.

I disagree. I don’t think that ANY one group, regardless of their claims to divine support, should EVER be in charge.

 

[Telstar]

I know, they love and uphold the Truth once known to Catholics.

Are you claiming that the Catholic Church no longer teaches Truth, at all? If you are, then I completely disagree.

the CC is the only Church to rule all nations. she should be the one to which all nations should abide by.

God is not concerned with His Church governing the secular world, any more than Jesus was. Jesus came to save our souls, not to rule this world in a political sense.
Matthew 22:[17] Tell us therefore what dost thou think, is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? [18] But Jesus knowing their wickedness, said: Why do you tempt me, ye hypocrites? [19] Shew me the coin of the tribute. And they offered him a penny. [20] And Jesus saith to them: Whose image and inscription is this? [21] They say to him: Caesar’s. Then he saith to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God, the things that are God’s. The Church should lead the world as an example in matters of faith and morals, but politics are not Her concern. If all people would follow her guidance in faith & morals, then it wouldn’t matter who lead, politically. Unfortunately, not everyone listens to the Pope when he speaks about those things, so as a result, we have the condition of the world we live in. You still can’t force people to comply with whatever the Catholic Church teaches. Look at the all of the non-Catholic Christians, as well as the sedevacantists, that completely ignore everything the Pope says because they don’t believe he has any real authority over them. How can you expect the Church to ever rule this world in any way, without removing the free will that God gave to every human being?

if any wants to be part of other belief that is fine, we dont force them. but the CC is the one Church that should rule over all. it is the Kingdom of God on earth, why dont you want His Kingdom to rule over all men? dont you believe that there is only one truth? dont you want all to come to know the Truth? It is the souls of man that we need to be concerned and not with the flesh.

But, what you’re suggesting would be to force everyone to comply, no matter what they actually believed. Jesus also said, “My Kingdom is not of this world.”, so your assumption that the Church should rule the secular world is against everything that Jesus taught. He wants His Church to rule over the hearts of men through love, not over their secular lives with an iron fist.

Your plan would make the Church rule over the flesh, alone. It would turn people’s hearts to stone against the Church, and everything that She stands for, by making Her no better than a communist regime. In the end, that would only result in a greater loss of souls.

 

[Dymphna82]

I disagree. I don’t think that ANY one group, regardless of their claims to divine support, should EVER be in charge.

So you prefer democracy then, where we vote for who the best choice is, and hope that they will do the job right? Who do we vote for? Obama or another Bush? America is failing. In fact, I’d go as far as to say America was a great idea but no one foresaw what we’d turn it into. Everytime I turn on the news, I wonder if we’ve angered God with all the things we do. I wonder if it’s even worth having children in a culture of death. Secular government does well for material needs(and not even that good lately) but does everything to rid us of our souls.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church has been around since Jesus and still stands. It must be doing something right.

 

[Telstar]

So you prefer democracy then, where we vote for who the best choice is, and hope that they will do the job right? Who do we vote for? Obama or another Bush? America is failing. In fact, I’d go as far as to say America was a great idea but no one foresaw what we’d turn it into. Everytime I turn on the news, I wonder if we’ve angered God with all the things we do. I wonder if it’s even worth having children in a culture of death. Secular government does well for material needs(and not even that good lately) but does everything to rid us of our souls.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church has been around since Jesus and still stands. It must be doing something right.

First of all, the USA is not a democracy, and never has been. It’s a representative republic, based on the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Our responsibility is to vote for the candidate that we believe will best reflect our own beliefs and morality, and hope that they will make their decisions based on that moral character. But, the country doesn’t rely solely on that one leader to make those decisions. So, we also need to make sure that we vote for those other representatives who are the closest to our own moral views, to ensure that their decisions also reflect our own beliefs. It’s not a perfect system, but it’s the best one that the secular world has ever had. The best way to choose a candidate is to listen to what they say, look into their background and past voting records, and pray for God’s guidance in making our choices. If America is failing, it’s because we haven’t made the right choices, or because the candidates have not lived up to their own moral convictions after taking office.

The Catholic Church is a spiritual entity whose main concern is for our spiritual welfare. Politics can be a very dirty business. That’s one of the main reasons that the Church (Pope John Paul II in response to Father Robert Drinan’s political shenanigans) has already ruled that members of the clergy should not be involved in holding public office, because it conflicts with their duties to God and the Church, and can also lead them into occasions of sin. I’m fairly sure that the Catholic Church has no intention to ever change that policy in any way. At least, I would hope not.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Are you claiming that the Catholic Church no longer teaches Truth, at all? If you are, then I completely disagree.

God is not concerned with His Church governing the secular world, any more than Jesus was. Jesus came to save our souls, not to rule this world in a political sense.
Matthew 22:[17] Tell us therefore what dost thou think, is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? [18] But Jesus knowing their wickedness, said: Why do you tempt me, ye hypocrites? [19] Shew me the coin of the tribute. And they offered him a penny. [20] And Jesus saith to them: Whose image and inscription is this? [21] They say to him: Caesar’s. Then he saith to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God, the things that are God’s. The Church should lead the world as an example in matters of faith and morals, but politics are not Her concern. If all people would follow her guidance in faith & morals, then it wouldn’t matter who lead, politically. Unfortunately, not everyone listens to the Pope when he speaks about those things, so as a result, we have the condition of the world we live in. You still can’t force people to comply with whatever the Catholic Church teaches. Look at the all of the non-Catholic Christians, as well as the sedevacantists, that completely ignore everything the Pope says because they don’t believe he has any real authority over them. How can you expect the Church to ever rule this world in any way, without removing the free will that God gave to every human being?

But, what you’re suggesting would be to force everyone to comply, no matter what they actually believed. Jesus also said, “My Kingdom is not of this world.”, so your assumption that the Church should rule the secular world is against everything that Jesus taught. He wants His Church to rule over the hearts of men through love, not over their secular lives with an iron fist.

Your plan would make the Church rule over the flesh, alone. It would turn people’s hearts to stone against the Church, and everything that She stands for, by making Her no better than a communist regime. In the end, that would only result in a greater loss of souls.

Hummm…I am not going to answer to this. I hope you can ponder on what have said on your own.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wow wow wow.

It is funny because I have seen non Catholics say that certain people do not know the truth, and then Catholics say how dare you you should never say someone doesn’t know the truth whether they are Catholic or Protestant. Yet you find it to be perfectly okay to say someone doesn’t know the truth when you do not know them and you have no idea how their walk with God is.

Jesus Christ is Truth. To say someone doesn’t know the Truth because they are Protestant/ Catholic is to say that they do not know Jesus Christ. That is a pretty strong and confident statement that I believe no man should make.

Humm… The Truth is not to be hidden. Bringing the CC whose foundation is our Lord Himself to the level of a religion whose foundation are men is against the Truth. You cannot redefine the Church 2000 years later because you refuse to believe her.

Many are trying to redefine many things today, like marriage. people want to do what they want so they refine things to their own destruction.

 

[Izdaari]

No, absolutely not. Forced conversion to/from ANY religion is wrong. Whether that religion is the true one or not is irrelevant. God gave us free will, and I do not think He looks approvingly on other humans violating it, even if (or especially if) the reason is to win converts to His Kingdom .

 

[wisdomseeker]

No, absolutely not. Forced conversion to/from ANY religion is wrong. Whether that religion is the true one or not is irrelevant. God gave us free will, and I do not think He looks approvingly on other humans violating it, even if (or especially if) the reason is to win converts to His Kingdom .

It is not forced conversion, but the Church have a duty to quiet down heresy for the sake of the souls of the people. just think about what is happening today. the population is 7 billion and only 1 billion Catholics. that is because heresies are allowed to have a voice and are deceiviing many. the fight is not agaisnt flesh and blood but…

we are not called to be cowards but to be bold in the face of evil.

 

[Telstar]

Hummm…I am not going to answer to this. I hope you can ponder on what have said on your own.

I’m guessing that you aren’t responding because you know I’m right, and, you can’t think of a way to argue with what I said. I already carefully pondered my own answer. That’s why I wrote what I did. I believe that I’m correct and you’re wrong in believing that the Church should rule the world in a secular sense. If you believe that I’m wrong, or that I’ve misinterpreted what you said, then please, point out where you believe I’m wrong. If you refuse to counter anything I said, then I’ll have to assume that I’m correct in my interpretation of your position. I hate assuming anything, because we all know what happens when we ‘assume’, but you leave me no choice.

Perhaps you should ponder and pray about your own position, if what you stated is a true reflection of your own beliefs about the state of the Church, today, and Her position in this world. While I do agree that in an ideal, utopian world, free from the influence of Satan and sin, it would be possible for the Church to effectively ‘rule’ over all mankind. But, not while the devil is still roaming around looking to stir up trouble and devour souls. She has a much more serious spiritual mission, to convert (and save) as many souls as possible to Jesus, without getting distracted and bogged down in the filthy swamp of worldly politics. She can continue to try and influence the people of the world to do the right things as She always has, but She can’t force any of them to comply, any more than any dictator can force people to always do as he says without expecting some of them to revolt against him, at some point in time.

 

[Telstar]

It is not forced conversion, but the Church have a duty to quiet down heresy for the sake of the souls of the people. just think about what is happening today. the population is 7 billion and only 1 billion Catholics. that is because heresies are allowed to have a voice and are deceiviing many. the fight is not agaisnt flesh and blood but…

we are not called to be cowards but to be bold in the face of evil.

So, are you saying that the Catholic Church should start a bloody crusade to rid the whole world of heresy, by force? Is that what you think Jesus teaches us to do? Is that what the Apostles preached during their lifetimes, to convert people by bloodshed? Or, did Jesus teach us to preach the Gospel to all nations, and to*** pray*** for their conversion through His Way of Love and Mercy?

Did you ever hear the old adage that ‘you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar’? I think that applies very well to this whole topic. Jesus didn’t build up an army to take over the world by force and drag it, kicking and screaming, to worship God. He built a Church to convert it to God, through love. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to correct those that are in error through reasonable theological discussion (like here on CAF), but it certainly doesn’t mean that we should ‘kill them to teach them a lesson’, either. :dts:

 

[wisdomseeker]

I’m guessing that you aren’t responding because you know I’m right, and, you can’t think of a way to argue with what I said. I already carefully pondered my own answer. That’s why I wrote what I did. I believe that I’m correct and you’re wrong in believing that the Church should rule the world in a secular sense. If you believe that I’m wrong, or that I’ve misinterpreted what you said, then please, point out where you believe I’m wrong. If you refuse to counter anything I said, then I’ll have to assume that I’m correct in my interpretation of your position. I hate assuming anything, because we all know what happens when we ‘assume’, but you leave me no choice.

Perhaps you should ponder and pray about your own position, if what you stated is a true reflection of your own beliefs about the state of the Church, today, and Her position in this world. While I do agree that in an ideal, utopian world, free from the influence of Satan and sin, it would be possible for the Church to effectively ‘rule’ over all mankind. But, not while the devil is still roaming around looking to stir up trouble and devour souls. She has a much more serious spiritual mission, to convert (and save) as many souls as possible to Jesus, without getting distracted and bogged down in the filthy swamp of worldly politics. She can continue to try and influence the people of the world to do the right things as She always has, but She can’t force any of them to comply, any more than any dictator can force people to always do as he says without expecting some of them to revolt against him, at some point in time.

Who said that the Church should rule the world in a secular sense? you are the one saying this and not me. do you think that governments should be free from the laws of God which are also the laws of the Church? you dont think that God call all governments to follow His laws? how are they to do this unless they are all Catholics?

 

[Crdl2Grv]

do you think that governments should be free from the laws of God which are also the laws of the Church? you dont think that God call all governments to follow His laws? how are they to do this unless they are all Catholics?

So it’s your position that all Americans, indeed every person in the world, should be required by law to attend Mass at least once per week? And that the various levels of the US government should, through active law enforcement, prevent restaurants from preparing and selling meat on Fridays during Lent? And infrequent, irregular use of the sacrament of reconciliation should be a misdemeanor, and the offender should appear before a criminal court judge for sentencing? Because unless you agree with all three of the preceding propositions, then you, too, think that “governments should be free from the laws of God.”

 

[Crdl2Grv]

I’m guessing that you aren’t responding because you know I’m right, and, you can’t think of a way to argue with what I said.

You’re not the only one guessing it, Telstar. It’s patently obvious.

 

[Telstar]

I know, they love and uphold the Truth once known to Catholics. the CC is the only Church to rule all nations. she should be the one to which all nations should abide by. if any wants to be part of other belief that is fine, we dont force them. but the CC is the one Church that should rule over all. it is the Kingdom of God on earth, why dont you want His Kingdom to rule over all men? dont you believe that there is only one truth? dont you want all to come to know the Truth? It is the souls of man that we need to be concerned and not with the flesh.

Who said that the Church should rule the world in a secular sense? you are the one saying this and not me. do you think that governments should be free from the laws of God which are also the laws of the Church? you dont think that God call all governments to follow His laws? how are they to do this unless they are all Catholics?

You’re the one that clearly stated that the Catholic Church should “rule all nations”, even if “others” don’t necessarily believe in the Church (or I presume might not even believe in God, at all), then you go on to say, “we dont force them”. Now, you’re asking me how anyone can follow God’s law over all nations ***unless ***they’re Catholic, which would imply that you do, in fact, believe that everyone should be forced to convert to the Church! How else can that premise be interpreted other than meaning that you believe the Church should “rule” over all nations in a secular sense, and that She should convert those “others” to Catholicism by force?

I certainly never said that governments should not follow the laws of God, because I believe they should. But, I also realize that God gave ***all ***men free will to choose whatever laws and beliefs they want to live by. If the majority freely choose to ignore God’s laws and create their own, then it’s useless for anyone else to expect them to follow them, voluntarily. If we try to force anyone to become Catholic, then we would be no better than dictators like Hitler and Stalin.

In the end, God will be the final Judge of both their actions, and ours. If we choose to do things as you suggest, then I’m afraid we’ll all end up in a very ‘hot climate’, that none of us will enjoy in the least.

 

[Telstar]

You’re not the only one guessing it, Telstar. It’s patently obvious.

Thank you, Crdl2Grv. I thought it was pretty obvious what they were implying, so it’s good to know that I wasn’t just misinterpreting what they said in their previous posts.

 

[Reepicheep]

According to many on this forum, it is not possible to leave Catholicism once you’ve been baptised Catholic or taken into the Catholic Church by conversion. What would be the status of people who were converted by force, or fraud, or threat of loss? These things have certainly happened in the past, for example in Croatia during World War Two. If their consent at the time of conversion was lacking, can they present a case to a tribunal and have it declared null?

You don’t need permission from a tribunal to leave the Catholic Church. You can just walk away.