Forcing Catholic Morality on everyone

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This is just a question… Why are we always trying to get the government to adopt Catholic values as law?

I mean we want to outlaw abortion and contraception, ban gay marriage, the list goes on and on…

But some Christian Churches and Jewish synangoues take issues with our morality…

Virtually all protestants while opposing abortion use some kind of contraception and reform jews and quakers say being gay is fine and support gay marriage…

Why does it have to be “my way or the highway” for Catholic morality… Why can’t we have our values to ourselves and they have their values…

We are governed by separation of church and state in this country…

A Quaker or Reformed Jew may be a gay or want an abortion… Why are we to oppose their value system?
Lots of sweeping statements in there. Many are simply not true, or not provable.

Judaism, like Catholicism, is a Natural Law religion. Judaism has always, traditionally, been against homosexuality, just as the Catholic Church has been.

Those synogogues who are more accepting of homosexuality are moving away from the Natural Law basis of their religion. So too are those Catholics who would accept homosexuality. That move away from the objective Natural Law base is a move towards moral relativism, which is anathema to Catholicism.
 
-Do Catholics have a right to run adoption centers which NEVER give an orphan to a couple unless they are married and consist of a Man and a Woman. Not in this country.
I believe they can, if they are not contracted by the State. In other words, they would have to run independently and not accept any State contributions. I know they can also arrange private adoptions.
-Do Catholics who work at hospitals have a right to not participate in abortions? Not unless they want to lose their jobs.
I work in a secular hospital, and I do not have to participate in abortions. And no one else has to either. Many nurses who are not Catholic will help out someone who has a problem with procedures that Catholics can’t participate in. The only time one would have to participate in an abortion is 1) if the patient is in imminent danger of losing their life AND 2) the Catholic nurse can’t find a replacement to take her patient. These are very rare instances such that this is a mountain made from a molehill. So I again don’t agree that Catholics must participate in abortion or lose their jobs.
-Do Catholics have a right to work at a Catholic hospital that NEVER has any contraception available. Nope, contraception is now mandatory.
Hospitals don’t administer contraceptives. What exactly are you talking about? And again, if a clinic or such administers contraceptives, it’s easy for a nurse to find someone to help her out and administer them for her/him. Again, I can’t relate to this ‘rights being stripped away from Catholics’ notion, and I’m Catholic, a nurse, and work in a secular hospital. I just don’t see all this discriminatio you are talking about.
-Do Catholic priests have a right to talk about anything they want to in their homilies? Not unless they want to be taxed by the government. Which… for those of you who say the Church shouldn’t be tax exempt… this would mean that money that is collected in the pews would be taxed, and the government would give that money to fund abortion, planned parenthood, and contraception at hospitals and schools.
Again, I dont’ know what you’re talking about. Tax exemption doesn’t have anything to do with what is said on the pulpits, it has to do with being a non-for-profit organization. Their freedom to teach faith is not hindered by their tax exempt status. However, they don’t and shouldn’t endorse a particular candidate, that’s a given. Even the Church doesn’t do this, so why should a priest do this.
-Do Catholics have a right to pray in a public school?
They sure can, just not as a group leading the rest of the school. One can pray anywhere.
Or wear a rosary in a public school?
You’re putting the blame on the wrong party here. Blame the gangbangers who use rosaries as an identifier. As long as they continue to do so, kids won’t be able to wear them to school. Besides, the rosary isn’t jewelry, and is not supposed to be worn as jewelry.
Or say that gay sex is a sin in a public school?
Why would they? Catholic teachings should be in Catholic settings, not imposed on those who don’t want to hear it…
All of these rights are being taken away.
It’s truly horrible that you feel so victimized by the laws that are meant to protect everyone. I’m truly sorry for you. I can’t relate to any of the points you describe above. I don’t feel discriminated against at all in work or when I was in school. I feel as free as anyone else, and it’s a great place to be. I will pray for you that you find freedom and autonomy in your life, so that you feel free to practice your religion like I do and like everyone should.
Multiculturalism is a failure according to many
It’s a great sucess to many more. It means that many people of various cultures and religions can co-exist without trying to kill each other like in areas in constant conflict because they don’t have the same rights as we do. You are fortunate to be able to lobby on behalf of what you believe, whereas many others in different parts of the world can’t even BE Christian. Think about how awful that is: In some parts of the world, one can’t even be Christian due to the prejudices of the Muslims. Some areas in the world have Muslims and Jews and Christians fighting constantly. You are able to practice your religion, you just want others to do the same, and it bugs you that they don’t have to. I guess I can understand that. But if I were you, and I know I’m not, I’d be concentrating on what I can and don’t have to do, rather than on what others choose to do, or not do. If you base your freedom on what you can make others do/not do, you will always be angry and unhappy. And that’s no way to live IMOHO 😦
 
So, meltzerboy and Rence, you are part of this pluralistic, multicultural society. So are other Catholics, other Jews, so are Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and atheists. You two don’t need to apply your reliigous upbringing to the secular sphere if you feel guilty about “forcing” your inalienable right to personal belief on society. But others don’t feel so guilty, and they have no requirement to be bound by your guilt, or your choice not to exercise your constitutional right. And rather than they having “no right” to express their beliefs, it is you two who have no constitutional right to argue that they should not express theirs. You have this backwards. 🙂
I totally agree with you 🙂 You’re totally right. That’s what I said in my very first post on this thread:
It’s not supposed to be that way of course. We should value the next person’s rights, religious freedom, and autonomy as much as we value our own. But Catholics, like the next person (notoriously, the muslims for example), **have the right to lobby for legislation that is important to them and their moral values - which are defined by the Church. **So those who are, for example, lobbying for legislation to prevent gays from being married, are not doing so in the name of the Church necessarily, they’re doing so because they believe it’s wrong and believe people shouldn’t be allowed to do it. They do the same with divorce laws, abortion laws, contraception, etc. It’s the same for Muslims who are lobbying for legislation to allow Sharia law in their communities. People are all the same, not as different as we would all like to believe, and people value their own values above everyone else’s and reflect that in their votes, lobbying, petitioning, assemblying, speech, etc. I think it’s just that Catholics and Muslims are definitely making the most noise about it than others But honestly, they’re no different than anyone else who fight for what they believe to be right or true.
 
Who doesn’t understand this, Rence?

That’s why they aren’t.

What you get as a Catholic, and what meltzerboy gets as a Jew, is the inalienable right to practice your religion and apply that understanding of your personal religious values in how you vote, how you influence legislators, how you debate in the secular arena. That’s what freedom of religion gives you. There is no U.S. Constitution which mandates freedom from religion, and no “inalienable right” which gives all unbelievers virtual earplugs over what believers say about legislation, and the moral underpinnings on which legislation is actually built. There is no Constitutional guarantee that society is entitled to be free from discussion of religion, including how such beliefs form the priorities and preferences of other voters.

So, meltzerboy and Rence, you are part of this pluralistic, multicultural society. So are other Catholics, other Jews, so are Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and atheists. You two don’t need to apply your reliigous upbringing to the secular sphere if you feel guilty about “forcing” your inalienable right to personal belief on society. But others don’t feel so guilty, and they have no requirement to be bound by your guilt, or your choice not to exercise your constitutional right. And rather than they having “no right” to express their beliefs, it is you two who have no constitutional right to argue that they should not express theirs. You have this backwards. 🙂

And to state that lobbying, even informally, for a particular point of view which incidentally stems a little or a lot from a religious philosophy, is equal to a “theocracy” reveals a misunderstanding of that word. Our Founding Documents prevent, permanently (barring an unlikely Constitutional Amendment) a theocracy from ever occurring, as that would directly oppose our governmental structure. The fact that there can be no formal alliance between a particular religion and the U.S. government cannot be legally interpreted to mean that citizens, including those wearing yarmulkes or Roman collars, have also been stripped of their rights to speak publicly about their religious views. American Jews are among the most politically activist of all religions, consciously applying Jewish morality to legislation. I’m surprised at you, meltzerboy. And it is one of the reasons that Jews are heavily represented in Congress and in the field of law: because they care about moral issues and understand that moral issues are applied – not just mentioned at temple on Saturdays.
Elizabeth, where did I state all of this that you claim? I did NOT say and do not believe that any of us should not exercise our inalienable rights as citizens to express our religious and moral views in the corridors of government. What I did say is that we should realize that the beliefs of our respective religions cannot be incorporated into secular law IN THEIR ENTIRETY without regard for other, differing or conflicting religious beliefs in a multicultural, pluralistic society. But if any one religion should be successful in its demand for complete secular adherence to its moral regulations, we would then indeed have a theocracy rather than a democracy, because that would mean that all views and practices of other religions which are different on specific issues (such as contraception, abortion, gay marriage, divorce, euthanasia, etc.) would be officially illegal and those who practice them in accord with their own religious beliefs would be prosecuted. That is why separation of Church and State is so important in a democracy. Not merely so that we can have respect for our differences as individuals in a civilized society (though this is itself significant), but also to protect our cherished religious liberties. In this sense, freedom from religion enables freedom of religion for all.
 
Elizabeth, where did I state all of this that you claim? I did NOT say and do not believe that any of us should not exercise our inalienable rights as citizens to express our religious and moral views in the corridors of government.
What I did say is that we should realize that the beliefs of our respective religions cannot be incorporated into secular law IN THEIR ENTIRETY without regard for other, differing or conflicting religious beliefs. But if any one religion should be successful in its demand for complete secular adherence to its moral regulations, we would then indeed have a theocracy rather than a democracy, because that would mean that all views and practices of other religions which are different on specific issues (such as contraception, abortion, gay marriage, divorce, euthanasia, etc.) would be officially illegal and those who practice them in accord with their religious beliefs would be prosecuted. That is why separation of Church and State is so important in a democracy. Not merely so that we can have respect for our differences as individuals in a civilized society (though this is itself significant), but also to protect our cherished religious liberties.
Yep Meltzer, you’re right 🙂 Catholics, just like anyone else, have the right to make their needs known by lobbying, and voting accordingly, and by assemby, or by educating their friends and neighbors. But they shouldn’t expect that Catholic rules and beliefs will be imposed on non-Catholics giving them no choice but to follow Catholic rules and beliefs without recourse. That’s not going to happen here. But yes, they have just as much right as anyone else to lobby for their beliefs, just like the Muslims, Baptists, Mormons, Jews, JWs, and even atheists have 👍
 
…

I work in a secular hospital, and I do not have to participate in abortions. And no one else has to either. Many nurses who are not Catholic will help out someone who has a problem with procedures that Catholics can’t participate in. The only time one would have to participate in an abortion is 1) if the patient is in imminent danger of losing their life AND 2) the Catholic nurse can’t find a replacement to take her patient. These are very rare instances such that this is a mountain made from a molehill. So I again don’t agree that Catholics must participate in abortion or lose their jobs.
No one else has to?

What do you say to this then?

Twelve Nurses Forced to Take Part in Abortions
,
 
No one else has to?

What do you say to this then?

Twelve Nurses Forced to Take Part in Abortions
,
I say: Where’s the follow up story? That was written on Nov 2nd, Tonight is Nov 27th. Supposedly this new policy was to take effect on Nov 4th,. Do you know what happened? and the story is correct, it’s against the law. They should file suit or at the very least, find other jobs. They can’t abandon their patient in an emergency, but these were elective surgeries. The nurses would win their case in court.
 
It is far from universally true that this is the case. Western Catholicism in fact expressed a greater conviction re: separation of church and state – Two Swords and all that. Secular authorities were regarded as subordinate to but distinct from the Church. This was not the case for the Orthodox, where no such distinction was recognized, the Emperor routinely appointed and removed Patriarchs and could himself be excommunicated by them and so on. Yet the Byzantine Empire remained spiritually vibrant, happy, and holy until its destruction at the hands of Muslims.

At any rate, corruption appears to be a central feature of the human-organizational experience. As witnessed by the corrupt and degenerate state of our present secular democracies. We should concern ourselves, then, not with whether or not a Catholic society would be immune to corruption (which appears to be unreasonable to expect of any society) but with whether or not it would be rationally and justly founded.

I’m quite OK with living under a Catholic theocracy. Beats the hell out of our present godless degenerate mess of a society.

What is objectionable in modern authoritarian movements is not that they are authoritarian. Authority, properly speaking, is a good, hence why we are commanded in both Old Testament and New to obey it, even when doing so costs us our lives, provided it does not conflict with natural or divine law. What is objectionable in modern authoritarian movements is that they are in the service of falsehood and evil – atheism, socialism, materialism, etc. – and are therefore things of the world, and of the Devil.

I’m still curious as to why Catholics should obey the Father Flakes of the Ecumenical Cult of Niceness telling us “therefore we must tolerate their religious practices.” If recent history is any indication, our enemies have no intention of doing the same for us – even unto worshipping the devil, desecrating our Churches, raping our nuns, butchering our priests, and torturing our laity. I’m also curious as to why Catholics should be expected to disarm and kiss the dirt on which our degenerate utilitarian zeitgeist treads, as if doing so has done us any favors – if anything it has precipitated the unprecedented moral collapse of the Catholic laity, rebellion in the Church hierarchy, and total madness in the organization of our social and economic lives. To Hell with it. None of us should be surprised that non-Catholics (Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.) should embrace policies that have the net effect of destroying Catholicism. What is remarkable to me is that so many Catholics should join them.
Your statement that you’re “OK with living under a Catholic theocracy” is a telling remark. I assume you wouldn’t be OK living under an Islamic theocracy, however. So how do you think a Muslim, Jew, Protestant, or Hindu would feel living in a Catholic theocracy? I understand you believe (or know) Catholicism is the Truth; but not everyone shares your knowledge. What about these other religious groups; should they simply be forced to conform or convert to your beliefs, and should they be punished if they refuse to do so? And do you honestly believe that non-Catholics embrace policies intentionally for the purpose of destroying Catholicism?
 
I say: Where’s the follow up story? That was written on Nov 2nd, Tonight is Nov 27th. Supposedly this new policy was to take effect on Nov 4th,. Do you know what happened? and the story is correct, it’s against the law. They should file suit or at the very least, find other jobs. They can’t abandon their patient in an emergency, but these were elective surgeries. The nurses would win their case in court.
The nurses did sue last week. Complaint here, which I still have to read. I guess we’ll see how this plays out.

There is another case of a nurse forced to participate in an abortion who was prevented from suing.

Court says nurse who was forced to perform late-term abortion can’t sue
 
I don’t understand why other religions have their own state, but Catholic/Christianity can’t have their own. HMMM. Some countries don’t even allow other religions to practice in their “own” country. But Canada must bow to other religions even if that means banning “CHRIST” from everything. Christianity is based on Love thy neighbour - so it is natural accept our neighbours beliefs. I wish people would consider this Law, when they argue morality in the Western Countries.
 
I don’t understand why other religions have their own state, but Catholic/Christianity can’t have their own. HMMM. Some countries don’t even allow other religions to practice in their “own” country. But Canada must bow to other religions even if that means banning “CHRIST” from everything. Christianity is based on Love thy neighbour - so it is natural accept our neighbours beliefs. I wish people would consider this Law, when they argue morality in the Western Countries.
History, Catholic countries did not do well on behalf of the citizens. Monarchs based civil law on the laws of the Church, and people were rounded up and questioned/tortured/imprisoned/murdered for breaking Church law or for choosing not to be Catholic. I wouldn’t want to live in a Catholic State. Vatican City is the last Catholic State that I know of …
 
Yes, but that was the past - and gov’t and rulers cause harm. What is happening in the present.

I would consider Rome to be my home.
 
If you are a real Catholic, you really don’t believe, we were told to kill. God is our ruler, not the gov’t.
 
Yes, but that was the past - and gov’t and rulers cause harm. What is happening in the present.

I would consider Rome to be my home.
Unfortunately, history has a habit of repeating itself. I’m totally supportive of anyone who wants to live in a Catholic theocracy. But I wouldn’t want to live there myself. But that’s okay, because I live in the good old US of A 😃
 
Good I hope you enjoy your freedom as a Catholic in the U.S.A - you may want to know(or not Know) based on your answer what the future holds as a Catholic in the U.S.A or anywhere in the world. But one thing we can agree on is “Heaven is the only peaceful place”. GOD BLESS.
 
It’s truly horrible that you feel so victimized by the laws that are meant to protect everyone. I’m truly sorry for you. I can’t relate to any of the points you describe above. I don’t feel discriminated against at all in work or when I was in school. I feel as free as anyone else, and it’s a great place to be. I will pray for you that you find freedom and autonomy in your life, so that you feel free to practice your religion like I do and like everyone should.

It’s a great sucess to many more. It means that many people of various cultures and religions can co-exist without trying to kill each other like in areas in constant conflict because they don’t have the same rights as we do. You are fortunate to be able to lobby on behalf of what you believe, whereas many others in different parts of the world can’t even BE Christian. Think about how awful that is: In some parts of the world, one can’t even be Christian due to the prejudices of the Muslims. Some areas in the world have Muslims and Jews and Christians fighting constantly. You are able to practice your religion, you just want others to do the same, and it bugs you that they don’t have to. I guess I can understand that. But if I were you, and I know I’m not, I’d be concentrating on what I can and don’t have to do, rather than on what others choose to do, or not do. If you base your freedom on what you can make others do/not do, you will always be angry and unhappy. And that’s no way to live IMOHO 😦
You seem to provide some justification for everything I said, or you suggest that none of it is happening. Well, I read Catholic news all the time. And I am confident, that every single thing I listed that is happening in this country can be substantiated by news from many catholic news sources. I’m not going to do that for you, but if you want to search for any of those things, plenty of Catholic media forces will prove that these things are going on. That’s just facts on the ground.

Anyways, I thank you for your prayers. I will probably find freedom and autonomy not in life but in death. My soul will long for Heaven, so much so that living on Earth is like living in Hell. I will truly fulfill the calling of the Scriptures to hate the world and to treat the world as if you were an alien to it. Unless there is some corner of former Christendom that hasn’t been ravaged by the evils of secularism and modernism. And, what’s so wrong about being completely unhappy? God calls us to suffer, and I thank Him for my suffering.

I certainly admit that yes, I want others to practice my Catholic faith. But, that doesn’t make me mad. I’m mad because I can’t practice my Catholic faith how I want to.

And, all those parts of the world where Christians are being killed, and can’t go to Church, and really are being persecuted. Well, I have faith that our Lord Jesus Christ will condemn every single person behind their persecution. **God’s justice will punish the wicked men who persecute our Christian brethren.
**
 
And do you honestly believe that non-Catholics embrace policies intentionally for the purpose of destroying Catholicism?
They may not know it. But, who else would be behind anti-Catholic laws than the Devil Himself?

If we’re talking about embracing policies like abortion… which is a worldwide holocaust, and an American holocaust with over 50 million children being killed. How could the Devil not play a role in evil that great?
 
History, Catholic countries did not do well on behalf of the citizens. Monarchs based civil law on the laws of the Church, and people were rounded up and questioned/tortured/imprisoned/murdered for breaking Church law or for choosing not to be Catholic. I wouldn’t want to live in a Catholic State. Vatican City is the last Catholic State that I know of …
History, Catholic countries thrived right from the time of the Byzantine Empire. That thriving gave rise to the Catholic European states we call Western Europe. In fact, Catholicism is what held Europe together for long enough for it to turn into Europe! Until the Reformation, Catholic from one end to the other. And even after the reformation, Catholic morality still held sway in those countries that followed Luther and Calvin.

The Catholicism that you say didn’t do so well even resulted in the founding of the U.S. of A with the principles of Catholicism even enshrined in its D of I and its Constitution. Not to mention the legal sysem based on the code handed down from one very Catholic Emporer and which formed the basis of every western democracy. .
 
Anyways, I thank you for your prayers. I will probably find freedom and autonomy not in life but in death. My soul will long for Heaven, so much so that living on Earth is like living in Hell. I will truly fulfill the calling of the Scriptures to hate the world and to treat the world as if you were an alien to it. Unless there is some corner of former Christendom that hasn’t been ravaged by the evils of secularism and modernism. And, what’s so wrong about being completely unhappy? God calls us to suffer, and I thank Him for my suffering.
Words can’t even describe how saddened I am that you are miserable and I will pray for you. That you can’t find joy in the simplest things in life is tragic in my eyes. I hope you do find your peace.
I certainly admit that yes, I want others to practice my Catholic faith. But, that doesn’t make me mad. I’m mad because I can’t practice my Catholic faith how I want to.
Why not? Why can’t you practice your Catholic faith how you want to?
And, all those parts of the world where Christians are being killed, and can’t go to Church, and really are being persecuted. Well, I have faith that our Lord Jesus Christ will condemn every single person behind their persecution. **God’s justice will punish the wicked men who persecute our Christian brethren.
**
I am pretty sure of that myself.
 
Words can’t even describe how saddened I am that you are miserable and I will pray for you. That you can’t find joy in the simplest things in life is tragic in my eyes. I hope you do find your peace.

Why not? Why can’t you practice your Catholic faith how you want to?
.
You can’t sing gregorian chant all day unless you’re a monk. I can’t ever because I’m surrounded by Protestants. I’m forced to whisper my prayers in silence behind closed doors. Hopefully I’ll live alone soon though, where I can pray as I please. And, for similar reasons I hardly ever practice corporal mortification.

And you can’t just greet every person you see with a Latin blessing. And there’s no forum for me to make an oration against all the sins and evils that go on every day. An oration. I could verbally dominate any argument made against the Church with an almost uncontrollable zeal and furious passion. Could, but never will…

So, I do all of these things in the secret of my room. And that’s the way it will be for some time to come. There is not one person in my life who I can talk about my beliefs with. And that spurred me into a depression, even though it has been that way for me ever since I gave my life to the faith… some… 8 years ago. I live my faith in secret, because my family is cafeteria Catholic, and I have no friends.

The world is hostile to my beliefs, and I therefore revile it. Anti-Catholic and Anti-Religious judgement are two diseases which have infected the vast majority of everyone in my generation.
 
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