Forcing Catholic Morality on everyone

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Newsflash: For Rence and any others who seem to register alarm that opinions are voiced in the public square by those affiliated with specific religions: Their opinions have no binding legal authority. Such persons get to apply whatever their beliefs are, including if those are Wicca, to their participation (however they express that legally – passionately or quietly) in a representative democracy. Too bad if others are threatened by that – whether that’s the OP, Rence, you, or anybody. The appropriate response is not denial of the rights of others to be daft or misguided, but a counterbalancing voice against whatever they are concretely proposing that opposes your own moral view. Voicing an opinion =/= “forcing Morality on others.” We can build a Towering Inferno with that super-sized Straw Man.
I don’t know why you seem to think I’m in alarm mode about others lobbying for legislation to reflect their religious beliefs because I’m in full support of people lobbying for whatever is important to them. I can’t even count the times I’ve told people on CAF to lobby for something they were upset about. You can’t get what you want if you don’t let our representatives know what they want. I just know that there will always be another group(s) to lobby against the same legislation. And the group that is bigger represents the majority, which is reflected in the lawmakers’ votes as they try to represent all parties. That’s how it works and it’s a good way too.
 
Want =/= “force”
Pressure =/= “force”
Binding law can be enforced (usually is enforced!), but the constitution guarantees all citizens – whatever their religious beliefs – not only to practice their beliefs in private (“in the closet”) but to do so publicly. One of those public manifestations is the constitutional right to persuade lawmakers to adopt certain laws which reflect the voter’s particular viewpoints.
It’s important for everybody to have a voice, and they have a voice, as long as they USE their voices to make their needs and wants known. Catholics, Jews, Muslims, JW, Athiests, shoud ALL voice their needs and make them known so that our representatives can represent everyone. So yes, absolutely, Catholics should lobby for changes in legislation that reflect their religious views. It’s their right to do so 👍
That’s why believers and unbelivers alike get to persuade the same lawmakers to adopt whatever moral principles any of them adhere to. That’s what ***a representative democracy ***is all about: We lobby, individually and in groups (if we choose), to get laws enacted which accord with our moral and political values.
That’s right! So people like the OP should stop complaining about Catholics and other groups lobbying for changes they find undesireable because complaining and whining about it is useless. If you don’t like something that someone (anyone) is trying to carve into legislation, get out there and lobby against it. Everyone has the right to pursuade their representatives, they just have to do it and stop talking about it.
That’s why they have equal constitutional protection as Catholics do (no more, no less) to persuade lawmakers to adopt different laws which accord with the moral viewpoints of those religions, sects, etc.
And I do believe our representatives are trying hard to accomodate everyone equally.
Therefore, there is no issue, unless you are arguing for a Constitutional Amendment to overturn the First Amendment, which is free speech without selective prejudice to one group or another. Now, if you are arguing that only Catholics should be denied free speech, then you will be laughed out of the first courtroom or legislature in which you try to propose such a prejudicial and exclusive amendment.
And I don’t think anyone wants that. Do unto others. We don’t like to be told to shut up and sit in a corner. So we shouldn’t be doing that to others, even those others with opposing views and beliefs.
 
I never denied anyone’s rights. This is the problem…some CAF Catholics unfortunately believe that non-Catholics are “out to get them” or that we are some kind of boogeyman. Please refer back to my post:
Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk
For the good of the Church’s reputation actually, it is best for it to be removed from the realm of politics as much as it possibly can be. It still has a right to speak its mind, and its opinion should definitely be factored in the political decision making-process as they are a stakeholder in a community just as much as anyone else. The problem comes when the Church becomes a political force unto itself, and its unfortunate that many CAF Catholics advocate for that. If they knew anything about history, they would know the destructive path that ultimately leads to.
But I don’t think the Catholic Church is a serious political force. Not anymore. Not like when a country had to be aligned with the Vatican or risk isolation. That just doesn’t happen anymore. And they do try to stay out of politics. Their perspective comes from the teachings of the Church. For example, the Church encourages Catholics who will lobby, to lobby for anti-abortion legislation, and our previous Pope even met with Pelosi. But notice that the Church never said anything public about what went on between the Pope and Pelosi, and they never ever direct Catholics to vote one way or another. What they did do was provide a guideline for voting which doesn’t support or deny support to any parties. What it does is list a series of topics that are important and that it calls Catholics to conside when voting. IMOHO, that’s not taking an active political stance. They’re simply calling on Catholics to take a part in citizenship with the teachings of the Church as a foundation. What you have issue with is when people ask more of others what the Church actually asks, and I understand that. But please don’t get confused as to what the Church actually does.
 
It’s important for everybody to have a voice, and they have a voice, as long as they USE their voices to make their needs and wants known. Catholics, Jews, Muslims, JW, Athiests, shoud ALL voice their needs and make them known so that our representatives can represent everyone. So yes, absolutely, Catholics should lobby for changes in legislation that reflect their religious views. It’s their right to do so.
Then what’s your problem about their doing so?

And I won’t quote the rest of your post (and your post above it on this page, addressed to me), but frankly these two seem to contradict what your message is elsewhere on this thread (and on some similar previous threads) – for example, where you voice agreement with meltzerboy about a multicultural society and non-theocratic government. All you’re doing (and he’s doing) is assenting to reality. There is no theocracy or credible theocratic movement in the USA in 2011. It’s not a worry or a problem. It’s a fiction. And the prospect of it is a fiction. A real worry, based in reality, is a worry about the health of the economy. Worrying about a “theocratic government” is right up there with The Rapture never having happened so far when various self-appointed modern prophets predicted it. If there are some citizens out there with some screws loose, who actually believe that Constitutional opposition is possible, by vote or by some executive order or some sleight of hand, you and I and meltzerboy can’t do anything about their lack of mental balance. That’s why I keep saying that people are arguing a non-issue. It was actually never a possibility; perhaps some people have dreamt of it, even calendared it in gleeful anticipation. :rolleyes: But in this time-and-space universe, it is not happening to this country.
 
Yes you did:

The underlined part of the quote indicates the justification for torture on the grounds that they were “destroying truth”. If you believe in the preservation of life, and aren’t just adhering to it in name only, you have to believe that people do not deserve to be tortured or be killed because they hold an opinion different from the status quo.
I did not JUSTIFY the torture but simply explained that it was not torture for torture’s sake as had been implied by others. To explain the CONTEXT of an action does not imply that I AGREE with the action.

It seems to me that you took my words and ‘leapt’ to a conclusion that was by no means what I actually said OR implied.
 
Thank you 🙂

Let me add the execution of “heretics” by Thomas More, otherwise known as, those who didn’t want to be Catholic anymore or who disagreed with Church teaching.
More was chancellor of England and it was the English GOVERNMENT which made such decisions, not ‘the Catholic Church’, not ‘a Catholic man’, not even a then-Catholic king.

You’re living in a world which has had 500 years worth of coexistance among Catholics and protestants, Rence. Thomas was living in a world which had been Christian, CATHOLIC Christian because there wasn’t anything ‘else’ in Christendom in England, for ONE THOUSAND YEARS. In a world which over that 1000 years had suffered tremendously from NON CHRISTIANS. Let’s put it this way.

You are born and brought up in POLAND from say 1920 to 1980. Communism is not, to YOU, something that it would be to somebody living in the same time in the U.S., Rence. We ‘tolerated’ communism in our own country, more or less, because we didn’t feel it was a danger. Ask Lech Walensa how he and the majority of the Polish people thought about communism which, despite the fact that many individual communist people were just as ‘nice’ as you and I, as an organization nearly destroyed Poland…

Thomas More would have felt about nonChristians the same way that those who had spent their lives, and had parents, grandparents etc. who suffered and died under a particular ‘regime’. That these people were a danger. . .because such people had been a danger. And he didn’t just say, ‘oh, you people are animals, you’re dead meat’. He tried over and over to convince them of the truth. Just as say a person today might try to convince a white supremacist or a Westboro Baptist of the moral evil of THEIR teaching. And just imagine a world, Rence, where unlike ours, there was no way to keep these people from not just carrying out their dangerous ways (do we let Westboro Baptist people come in to any Protestant church, or into the state or local government sessions, let them ‘speak’, let them ‘entice’ away young children? We don’t, because we have legal sanctions for these people. TUDOR ENGLAND HAD NO SUCH THING.’

really people have simply GOT to stop imagining 16th century Britain was 21st century Britain but with fancy clothes. The actors in “the Tudors” (pah) are NOT Henry and his court, but a bunch of 21st century people reading from a script written from a 21st century viewpoint.

Does this mean I ‘endorse’ the execution of heretics? NO. It means that I can look at a historical era IN CONTEXT and understand WHY things were done and that even if it looked to be (by the people then) sad but necessary, it would still be wrong morally speaking. . .but not wrong in the way you and others are trying to make it appear, as though Thomas were living in the 21st century and acted like a barbarian. His actions were morally wrong in that the idea that executing a heretic was the best way to protect ALL people, and even hopefully would give the heretic a chance to repent and save his soul at death, is wrong. But he himself was not personally guilty of moral wrong, because he did not meet all criteria for mortal sin --full knowledge, grave matter, and full consent of the will. To Thomas, this action, justified by the state, with centuries of precedent, was not a moral wrong. This makes him, like many of us, a human being who, in trying to the best of his ability to live morally, makes a wrong decision while thinking it correct. (Again this is comparable to the woman who believes that abortion is morally licit because it is ‘legal’. SOCIETY, which made the stupid law, is morally complicit in guilt, but the woman’s guilt is lessened, indeed to vanishing point for many, because the woman truly believes that something ‘legal’ is ‘moral.’. which again is why those who scream that pro-lifers would 'condemn woman who have abortions to death are arguing out of their. . .um, hats, and are totally wrong themselves.

Just as those who (wrongly) argue that killing an unborn child is BETTER than letting said child live to be a drain on his mother and a drag on society are WRONG in their actions while thinking, and even ‘reasoning’ that they are morally right.
 
Hi, Rence,

I think one problem is that you are making categorical statements that are profoundly myopic - and, in error. It really isn’t a case of ‘agreeing or not’ - rather, just look at the facts. It may be a fact that at your particular hospital nurses are not forced to participate in aboritons or lose their job - but, this is not the universal experience. Check out this link:
charismanews.com/culture/32255-new-jersey-hospital-forces-nurses-to-assist-in-abortions
I work in a secular hospital, and I do not have to participate in abortions. (snip) So I again don’t agree that Catholics must participate in abortion or lose their jobs.
I am just a little amazed at your cavalier attitude on how easily it is for nurses to shift work assignments amongst one another. As a retired Registered Nurse I can tell you that sometimes that happens - and sometimes it doesn’t. A lot depends on a lot of variables - even the willingness of the supervisor to make the necessary adjustments can not always be counted on depending on patient acuity. No, Rence, it just isn’t as easy as you have described. And, because of this approach you have taken, you are missing not only the subtle issues - but apparently news items that refute your generalized and overblown statements.
Hospitals don’t administer contraceptives. (snip) I just don’t see all this discriminatio you are talking about.
As far as I know, hospitals do not ‘administer’ anything. At the moment, I am a bit in the dark on this one, myself - unless the focus on a physician ordering a contraceptive and then the nurse administering it - but, that is just a guess on my part. Now, when it comes to stripping away rights - there probably is no issue in ‘secular’ hospitals (private for profit, or not-profit, or governmental?) But, Catholic hospitals will be required to provide abortion and sterilization services under ObamaCare - because such services are listed under ‘women’s health’ or ‘reproductive health’ and can not be denied. Now, that is going ot be a problem.
Tax exemption doesn’t have anything to do with what is said on the pulpits, it has to do with being a non-for-profit organization. (snip)
This is a complex issue because we are talking about the Federal Tax Code 501(c)(3) provision for tax exempt status of an organization - like a church. You are correct when you say the freedom to teach faith is not hindered - but, specifically speaking out against a politician (here is a link: joemygod.blogspot.com/2009/05/anti-gay-churches-risk-tax-exempt.html ) places the group at risk for losing their tax exemption. Now, move forward to actual issues - like aboriton, same-sex ‘marriage’, embryonic stem cell research, euthanasia, etc - can one speak against these and not the people who vote for these issues? Recall St. John the Baptist speaking out against the powers that be. It is true that he was not tax exempt … but, I do not think the loss of such a benefit would have muted his words against the king… who wound up cutting off John’s head.
lame the gangbangers who use rosaries as an identifier.(snip)
You have a point here. 🙂 I volunteer at a local jail (population 2,500 males) in Houston teaching a Catholic Bible program. Let me add that wearing them as as gang symbols has happened and only light cotton thread can be used (so it quickly breaks) so the rosary is not used as a garrote! While Franciscans and Dominicans and other religious groups do wear the rosary - I do not think anyone has anything to fear. Individuals wearing them as decorations is a real problem.
Why would they? Catholic teachings should be in Catholic settings, not imposed on those who don’t want to hear it…
I guess the real question here is, just where do you want to draw the line … how does the commandment, “Thou Shalt Not Kill” interface with “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” and square up with Catholic teaching? How does perfectly sound? Yet over 50,000,000 unborn babies have been murdered - and there are a lot of people who do not want to hear that!Anyone calling this a problem will be appreciated as much as a root canal.
It’s truly horrible that you feel so victimized by the laws that are meant to protect everyone. I’m truly sorry for you. (snip)
Include us all in your prayers. As I recall, this used to be the way things were - and, while you may not see it now - there is a real threat out there to you doing what you hope to do. I would ask you to reserve your sorrow for those of us who think differently from you. Just approach this with an open mind and just watch as things that used to be protected - give way to license.
You are able to practice your religion, you just want others to do the same, and it bugs you that they don’t have to.
I think you have misunderstood the post.

God bless
 
I feel sorry for the OP… He seems to have given up on this thread 😦

Perhaps this will help… My mom is a member of the Society of Friends; my Dad is a Greek Melkie Catholic… They have totally opposite views of morality…

My Dad is pretty much traditional Eastern Catholic who’s staunchly pro life, conservative traditional kind of guy…

My mom is a peace loving liberal quaker who’s pro choice and progressive…

I got raised in the Latin Church; but I digress… My mom resents when my dad shoves his Catholicness down her throat and my Dad resents when my Mom goes out and defends planned parenthood (Please no criticisim of my parents please or meee… I didn’t choose who my parents were it just kind of happened…)

Never force your values on anyone…
 
-Do Catholics have a right to…say that gay sex is a sin in a public school?
To which Rence replied:
Why would they? Catholic teachings should be in Catholic settings, not imposed on those who don’t want to hear it…
As a matter of fact, Rence (I’m an expert on this ;)), public school teachers in many locations are required, regardless of personal belief, to advocate a “morality” which supports homosexual behavior, homosexual unions, and homosexual “marriage” It’s part of the curriculum. IOW, not just to be silent on the issue, or to refrain from discouraging students from seeking such materials on their own; rather, he or she as a teacher must advocate for this, must teach it. :bigyikes:

It would be as if all nurses were required personally, as part of standard job duties, to encourage abortion for all their unmarried pregnant patients, regardless of what the patient did or did not say about the issue, what the family of that pregnant patient did or did not believe, and the nurse’s moral views – all together.

And not only does the teacher have no choice in the matter, neither (often) do the parents of the students. There was a case in Vallejo, CA more than a year ago, in which a sizeable number of parents held emergency meetings with school and district personnel to prevent the introduction of these materials, which violated the moral sexual code of a majority of school parents, and the district said (in essence) Tough. We’re Imposing Our Own Morality on You. (We’re strong-arming you.)

And here’s the important part: The parents in question were not allowed an opt-out, as is standard in many districts, schools, including Catholic schools. For example, Catholic education, both on the elementary and high school level includes basic sex education; but parents are told they can opt out if they choose to do so, even though these materials have diocesan approval, and the teaching is delivered only by teachers authorized and screened to teach in Catholic schools.

So it doesn’t appear that it’s Catholic institutions which behave in an authoritarian manner which jeopardizes constitutional protections, but rather secular institutions. The secular government and its institutions now dictate -]morality/-] immorality and require its agents to be their mouthpieces on pain of losing employment.
 
Hi, Rence,

Yes, the idea is that there is a market place for competing ideas - and it is the best ideas (not necessarily the ones most people are cheering at any particular moment) that will really carry the day. Now, just step back for a moment … yes, way back to Germany in the 1920’s. It looked like a democracy… but, things were just not going right for the economy - huge debt, high unemployment … you know, the usual list of suspects. Here is an interesting link: academicamerican.com/worldwar2/topics/germany.html

Everyone should get involved with their government - after all - we do get the government we deserve! But, look what happens when destructive ideas take hold - for example, human life is simply described as an orgnaism, the products of conception and now we have the aborted. There was a time when human life was loved and appreciated… now, the best we can hope for is a value - like the value that Pepsi placed on aborted fetal cells (lifesitenews.com/news/pepsi-shareholders-demand-company-stop-using-aborted-fetal-cell-lines-in-fl/) or like the value that Neocutis has for aborted fetal cells for skin care products, or … I could go on, but you get the idea. Just because a lot of people think something is good - does not make it so. When it comes to objective morality we are all asked to take a stand - and, in reality we vote with our feet by walking away from bad ideas.

Take the unilateral action taken by President Obama to violate the oath of office he took to defend the Constitution (and the laws of the country) by deciding that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutiional - and as every 7th grade US civics knows, only the Supreme Court could have made that decision.nationalreview.com/corner/260494/breaking-obama-administration-declares-doma-unconstitutional-wont-defend-it-court-dani Our President has acted outside the scope of his office - and this is just for starters. Recall that our President promised that the conscience of people who disagreed over abortion would be respected - and then this was trashed. Recall how Obama promised that no federal funds would be used for abortion - and then threatened that any bill that came to his desk that denied abortion funding would be vetoed.

There really are some differences betweeen the theory of democracy and its practice. The good news is that we as a nation will decide who will be the President in just 344 days from now.

God bless
I don’t know why you seem to think I’m in alarm mode about others lobbying for legislation to reflect their religious beliefs because I’m in full support of people lobbying for whatever is important to them. I can’t even count the times I’ve told people on CAF to lobby for something they were upset about. You can’t get what you want if you don’t let our representatives know what they want. I just know that there will always be another group(s) to lobby against the same legislation. And the group that is bigger represents the majority, which is reflected in the lawmakers’ votes as they try to represent all parties. That’s how it works and it’s a good way too.
 
Then what’s your problem about their doing so?
I don’t have a problem about them doing so 🙂
And I won’t quote the rest of your post (and your post above it on this page, addressed to me), but frankly these two seem to contradict what your message is elsewhere on this thread (and on some similar previous threads) – for example, where you voice agreement with meltzerboy about a multicultural society and non-theocratic government. All you’re doing (and he’s doing) is assenting to reality. There is no theocracy or credible theocratic movement in the USA in 2011. It’s not a worry or a problem. It’s a fiction. And the prospect of it is a fiction. A real worry, based in reality, is a worry about the health of the economy. Worrying about a “theocratic government” is right up there with The Rapture never having happened so far when various self-appointed modern prophets predicted it. If there are some citizens out there with some screws loose, who actually believe that Constitutional opposition is possible, by vote or by some executive order or some sleight of hand, you and I and meltzerboy can’t do anything about their lack of mental balance. That’s why I keep saying that people are arguing a non-issue. It was actually never a possibility; perhaps some people have dreamt of it, even calendared it in gleeful anticipation. :rolleyes: But in this time-and-space universe, it is not happening to this country.
I agree with you, it’ll never happen.
 
As a matter of fact, Rence (I’m an expert on this ;)), public school teachers in many locations are required, regardless of personal belief, to advocate a “morality” which supports homosexual behavior, homosexual unions, and homosexual “marriage” It’s part of the curriculum. IOW, not just to be silent on the issue, or to refrain from discouraging students from seeking such materials on their own; rather, he or she as a teacher must advocate for this, must teach it. :bigyikes:
Yeah, I would be uncomfortable with that too. I’d never take a job in a secular school.
It would be as if all nurses were required personally, as part of standard job duties, to encourage abortion for all their unmarried pregnant patients, regardless of what the patient did or did not say about the issue, what the family of that pregnant patient did or did not believe, and the nurse’s moral views – all together.
Right, nurses don’t have to do that, and if they did, I would steer clear of those places.
And not only does the teacher have no choice in the matter, neither (often) do the parents of the students… And here’s the important part: The parents in question were not allowed an opt-out, as is standard in many districts, schools, including Catholic schools. For example, Catholic education, both on the elementary and high school level includes basic sex education; but parents are told they can opt out if they choose to do so, even though these materials have diocesan approval, and the teaching is delivered only by teachers authorized and screened to teach in Catholic schools.
Thank goodness for home schooling and private schools 🙂
 
Hi, Semper Zelare,

Hey, cheer up and look around … you’re on CAF - with not only an abundance of threads but a super abundance of interested and interesting people who will share ideas about the Faith with you… 🙂 Yes,there are some limitations … but, the idea that you can hum Gregorian Chant while typing is nothing to dismiss lightly.

Don’t lose heart. My wife and I will keep you in our prayers.

God bless
You can’t sing gregorian chant all day unless you’re a monk. I can’t ever because I’m surrounded by Protestants. I’m forced to whisper my prayers in silence behind closed doors. Hopefully I’ll live alone soon though, where I can pray as I please. And, for similar reasons I hardly ever practice corporal mortification.

And you can’t just greet every person you see with a Latin blessing. And there’s no forum for me to make an oration against all the sins and evils that go on every day. An oration. I could verbally dominate any argument made against the Church with an almost uncontrollable zeal and furious passion. Could, but never will…

So, I do all of these things in the secret of my room. And that’s the way it will be for some time to come. There is not one person in my life who I can talk about my beliefs with. And that spurred me into a depression, even though it has been that way for me ever since I gave my life to the faith… some… 8 years ago. I live my faith in secret, because my family is cafeteria Catholic, and I have no friends.

The world is hostile to my beliefs, and I therefore revile it. Anti-Catholic and Anti-Religious judgement are two diseases which have infected the vast majority of everyone in my generation.
 
You can’t sing gregorian chant all day unless you’re a monk. I can’t ever because I’m surrounded by Protestants. I’m forced to whisper my prayers in silence behind closed doors. Hopefully I’ll live alone soon though, where I can pray as I please. And, for similar reasons I hardly ever practice corporal mortification.

And you can’t just greet every person you see with a Latin blessing. And there’s no forum for me to make an oration against all the sins and evils that go on every day. An oration. I could verbally dominate any argument made against the Church with an almost uncontrollable zeal and furious passion. Could, but never will…

So, I do all of these things in the secret of my room. And that’s the way it will be for some time to come. There is not one person in my life who I can talk about my beliefs with. And that spurred me into a depression, even though it has been that way for me ever since I gave my life to the faith… some… 8 years ago. I live my faith in secret, because my family is cafeteria Catholic, and I have no friends.

The world is hostile to my beliefs, and I therefore revile it. Anti-Catholic and Anti-Religious judgement are two diseases which have infected the vast majority of everyone in my generation.
You don’t have to isolate yourself. God always send assistance, and this forum is just an example of his generosity. I want to offer my friendship.
 
Hi, Elizabeth502,

It was very sad for me to read your post. I was remineded of this quote from Alexander Pope:
**
'Tis education forms the common mind,
Just as the twig is bent, the tree’s inclined. **

Thanks for shaking up our view of early education both protecting and preparing the child… things are not the way they used to be.

God bless

Read more: wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_said_as_a_twig_is_bent_so_grows_the_tree#ixzz1f38aecX0
To which Rence replied:

As a matter of fact, Rence (I’m an expert on this ;)), public school teachers in many locations are required, regardless of personal belief, to advocate a “morality” which supports homosexual behavior, homosexual unions, and homosexual “marriage” It’s part of the curriculum. IOW, not just to be silent on the issue, or to refrain from discouraging students from seeking such materials on their own; rather, he or she as a teacher must advocate for this, must teach it. :bigyikes:

It would be as if all nurses were required personally, as part of standard job duties, to encourage abortion for all their unmarried pregnant patients, regardless of what the patient did or did not say about the issue, what the family of that pregnant patient did or did not believe, and the nurse’s moral views – all together.

And not only does the teacher have no choice in the matter, neither (often) do the parents of the students. There was a case in Vallejo, CA more than a year ago, in which a sizeable number of parents held emergency meetings with school and district personnel to prevent the introduction of these materials, which violated the moral sexual code of a majority of school parents, and the district said (in essence) Tough. We’re Imposing Our Own Morality on You. (We’re strong-arming you.)

And here’s the important part: The parents in question were not allowed an opt-out, as is standard in many districts, schools, including Catholic schools. For example, Catholic education, both on the elementary and high school level includes basic sex education; but parents are told they can opt out if they choose to do so, even though these materials have diocesan approval, and the teaching is delivered only by teachers authorized and screened to teach in Catholic schools.

So it doesn’t appear that it’s Catholic institutions which behave in an authoritarian manner which jeopardizes constitutional protections, but rather secular institutions. The secular government and its institutions now dictate -]morality/-] immorality and require its agents to be their mouthpieces on pain of losing employment.
 
Oy vey.

Try to follow along:

The right of Catholics to assert their truths in the political sphere does not derive from their BELIEF in its truth value.

It derives from the FACT of its truth value.

Muslims may disagree with the truth value. That’s because they’re WRONG.

They may believe they’re right. But they believe because they are WRONG.

They may try to structure society in such a way as to promote their wrong vision of the truth (in fact, they do – your “tolerance” does nothing to stop them). But they would be WRONG to do so.

Your completely right. Christ was superior, that makes Christianity the superior religion not because Jesus forced, but because he loved us and God gave us a free will. Athiests will not acknowledge this because they don’t in believe in our God, and what they don’t believe they will never know.
 
Yeah, I would be uncomfortable with that too. I’d never take a job in a secular school.

But what about people who did that, 40, 30, 20, even 10 years ago? What about people who have spent say the last 3 or 4 years working to get a degree that when they started seemed like a good fit, but then as they themselves grew and developed and became aware of both their own acknowledgement of Christian truth, makes them hesitant to accept things which weren’t a problem when they started out but are now, and have been getting very rapidly more problematic? Just because YOU might not have to worry, what about those who are in the situation and face either going on to get the degree and having to teach in a secular school because that’s the only place available, or stopping, having to ‘redo’ their education, take on extra years worth of loans plus pay back on what they’ve already borrowed?

Right, nurses don’t have to do that, and if they did, I would steer clear of those places. You would? Really? but what about the woman (or man) who is having to pay the mortgage on a place that they couldn’t sell and make enough to buy another in a ‘safe’ area? What about their families and family ties to the community? What makes it ‘safe’ for hospital X if hospitals A, B, and C ‘require it’, and what if they finally do get to ‘your place’ and there isn’t any place LEFT that you wouldn’t be required to do this?

Thank goodness for home schooling and private schools 🙂
Again, for the people who have the time and the MONEY to be able to do this, good for them. But what of the nurse who like so many of us winds up a single mother trying to raise children? She CAN’T both do the nursing which pays the money to feed and clothe these children AND ‘home school’. . .and she can’t AFFORD the ‘private’ schools. . .and can’t afford to move around searching for the elusive ‘safe’ hospital which at any minute could find itself ‘forced’ to require its nurses to do procedures against their consciences. What about her (or the male RN), or PA, NP, LPN, even the LNA (who God knows are doing more hands-on kind of patient care than most people realize, and who have less ‘clout’ than the more ‘degreed’ in the profession as well).
 
Again, for the people who have the time and the MONEY to be able to do this, good for them. But what of the nurse who like so many of us winds up a single mother trying to raise children? She CAN’T both do the nursing which pays the money to feed and clothe these children AND ‘home school’. . .and she can’t AFFORD the ‘private’ schools. . .
An important point. (Which I forgot to mention) The parents in the real-life situation I described are lower-middle-class parents who cannot afford private schools or homeschooling, since both parents need to work. Just as importantly, this school district decision without parental consultation was a “fast one” pulled at the last-minute, midyear, allowing no school enrollment changes or alternative arrangements for families.

I’ve also heard of other strong-arm tactics such as denying passing grades to students whose parents pull them out of these “lessons,” in protest. The other sneak attack which has been used is oral agreement with parents, followed by immediate betrayal of the agreement the same week, with no warning.
 
An important point. (Which I forgot to mention) The parents in the real-life situation I described are lower-middle-class parents who cannot afford private schools or homeschooling, since both parents need to work. Just as importantly, this school district decision without parental consultation was a “fast one” pulled at the last-minute, midyear, allowing no school enrollment changes or alternative arrangements for families.

I’ve also heard of other strong-arm tactics such as denying passing grades to students whose parents pull them out of these “lessons,” in protest. The other sneak attack which has been used is oral agreement with parents, followed by immediate betrayal of the agreement the same week, with no warning.
This is definitely an example of what concerned parents should be lobbying, assemblying, etc. to accomplish: not exposing their children to “teachings” that are contrary to their religious beliefs. And IMOHO that is something worth fighting for. It’s something I’d be fighting for if I were a parent, or even an older sibling, or an aunt. In addition, if I were connected to such a child, or children, I would be networking with other parents to organize a home school program. Working together much can be accomplished rather than trying to fight alone.
 
Again, by implication you stated as even a possibility that religious law, confined to a particular religion (Sharia Law, Torah Law, Catholic Canon & Moral Law) might have the possibility of being implemented in the United States of America, in which you, meltzerboy, were theoretically educated to understand without a moment’s cognition that this is impossible. I expect much more from someone with your education and intelligence.

I don’t want to speak for the poster to whom you responded (sw85), but based on retracing his conversation to which you responded, this is what he said. He was not addressing you, a Jew. He was addressing another Catholic, like himself:

He’s speaking about the obligations of Catholics to represent what we believe are absolute (not relative) principles in the public square, because of their universal applicability. By the way, Mormons do this – apply their principles, as do Christian evangelical faiths, etc.

I will grant you that he may have opened himself up to criticism here, and perhaps that prompted you to put on the brakes:

I think what you may be inferring is that the contrast being implied is that, if “Catholic” Law could succeed in being implemented, it should be, but not Sharia Law. I’ll let him speak for himself, but I don’t think that’s what he meant. I believe he meant (or he should have meant), the principles behind that law – precisely the way faithful and well-educated and committed Jews believe fervently in the principles behind tzedakah in Torah, extending not only to the Jewish community but to humanity.

But do you seriously think that Canon Law “in its entirety,” (or even one paragraph of it), Torah in its religious language, and Sharia Law is a possibility? This is such a straw man.

:eek:

Who has suggested this? Is it I? And if you are not suggesting that this is possible, why is it an issue? If others (Catholics, whoever) think it’s possible, they need a civics lesson, quickly. Whatever they “think” is possible, it’s not a threat to you, to me, or to Rence. These are straw man arguments, because they are impossible.

If it even could happen, then it makes sense to reply to this thread. Otherwise, the entire thread is a gigantic STRAW MAN. There is no explicitly religious morality being “forced” on others. It is unconstitutional to do so. Show me where this has occurred during your lifetime. Not pressure. But force. Huge difference. One is lobbying and persuasion – your constitutional right to exercse, Rence’s constitutional right, sw85’s right, my right. The other (“forcing”) has zero legal authority of actual enforcement.

Newsflash: For Rence and any others who seem to register alarm that opinions are voiced in the public square by those affiliated with specific religions: Their opinions have no binding legal authority. Such persons get to apply whatever their beliefs are, including if those are Wicca, to their participation (however they express that legally – passionately or quietly) in a representative democracy. Too bad if others are threatened by that – whether that’s the OP, Rence, you, or anybody. The appropriate response is not denial of the rights of others to be daft or misguided, but a counterbalancing voice against whatever they are concretely proposing that opposes your own moral view. Voicing an opinion =/= “forcing Morality on others.” We can build a Towering Inferno with that super-sized Straw Man.

!
This is NOT a strawman. In the course of history, it is not unusual that changes occur gradually, bit by bit, and most of the public is often not even aware of what is happening until it is too late to reverse the damage. “In its entirety” does not mean that the changes happen all at once. I do not want ANY religion–Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, or atheism–forcing ANYONE, by means of government regulation, who has different (religious) convictions to act in a way contrary to their beliefs. Specifically, I do not want abortion to be outlawed in ALL instances, including when the mother’s life is in imminent danger, as this is against Orthodox Jewish teaching. Likewise, I do not want Catholic hospitals and doctors to be pressured to perform abortions since this is counter to their religious beliefs. Government should not interfere with Catholic adoption agencies who refuse to allow gay couples to adopt children, and religious adoption agencies who permit gay couples to adopt should be permitted to do so. I have similar feelings with regard to euthanasia, divorce, and other religious issues. I believe in the separation of Church and State as much as possible. I reiterate and add to what I said in post #44: Freedom from religion AND freedom from government interference in the practices of religious institutions enable freedom of religion for all. This does NOT mean that opinions should not be voiced and debate should not take place. However, if and when those opinions and debates turn into legislation that limits the religious freedom of any group (and this is not hypothetical: it has already happened), we are as a country en route to either a theocratic or an anti-religious form of government.
 
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