foreknowlege

[jnorris]

Patrick Coffin’s interview of exorcist Fr. Gary Thomas;

per Fr. Gary Thomas

• Satan is God’s most powerful angel at creation.
• Then, Satan falls from grace when he and 1/3 of the angels rebel against God over the incarnation, when God chooses to lower himself lower than the nature of angels in order to save humanity, and so the notion that the angels would be forced to pay homage to a god/man was incredulous and so their pride and envy overtook them and seduced them into the dark.

Given that God’s incarnation happened in time approx. 2000 years ago, how do we understand that this was understood by Satan soon after creation? Are angels (fallen and not fallen) outside of time?

 

[bzkoss236]

Patrick Coffin’s interview of exorcist Fr. Gary Thomas;

per Fr. Gary Thomas

• Satan is God’s most powerful angel at creation.
• Then, Satan falls from grace when he and 1/3 of the angels rebel against God over the incarnation, when God chooses to lower himself lower than the nature of angels in order to save humanity, and so the notion that the angels would be forced to pay homage to a god/man was incredulous and so their pride and envy overtook them and seduced them into the dark.

Given that God’s incarnation happened in time approx. 2000 years ago, how do we understand that this was understood by Satan soon after creation? Are angels (fallen and not fallen) outside of time?

They are at least outside of our time, just as those in heaven do not experience time as we know it. But I would say that God is the only being who is completely outside of time, because I would say that only God is omniscient.

 

[fred_conty]

It was my understanding that noone really knows what temptation the angels fell for.

It was just someone’s speculation that it was revealed to them that God would become man, and that they could not accept that.

 

[littlenothing]

We don’t know for sure what caused the angels’ fall, but I have read that it was a test put to the angels before being admitted into the Divine Presence to know the nature of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Since the Triune God is coeternal, God the Son, the Word made Flesh, always was, even before He was incarnate in time.

Because Satan wouldn’t accept the Word, he chose to close himself off from ever entering into the Divine Presence. This is also why they got only one chance. They knew Who God was and rejected Him anyway.

 

[Nita]

It was my understanding that noone really knows what temptation the angels fell for.

It was just someone’s speculation that it was revealed to them that God would become man, and that they could not accept that.

It is just speculation, but the following Scripture verse lends itself to that idea.Wisdom 2:23 for God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, 2:24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his party experience it.

 

[fred_conty]

It is just speculation, but the following Scripture verse lends itself to that idea.Wisdom 2:23 for God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, 2:24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his party experience it.

Not to be contrary, but to me that means that from the devil’s temptation of Eve, death entered the world. And that anyone who aligns themselves with the devil, his party, will experience death as well.

But I can see how the other idea could be taken from this verse.

Just some thoughts.

 

[fred_conty]

Now that we are into the idea of what the devil’s temptation was to make him fall, we know it probably had to be pride since he is a pure spirit. But then again, how do we know it wasn’t over power and therefore greed? Or maybe vanity since he supposedly was the must illustrias of all creatures.

And then again, maybe it just wasn’t one sinful instantaneous moment that he fell. But something more on the order of what we experience, a series of events lived out with a final test at one particular moment like we experience. For we live a life of temptations not just a solitary one, with the most important test at our very end which is really the only one that counts as to whether we head up or down. Our final semister grade depends all on that one final test, to pass or fail. Tho we do know that the other tests are important to strengthen us and to get us ready for that final one. So mabe the devil had something similar happen to him as we have.

Just some more speculation.

 

[Nita]

Not to be contrary, but to me that means that from the devil’s temptation of Eve, death entered the world. And that anyone who aligns themselves with the devil, his party, will experience death as well.

But I can see how the other idea could be taken from this verse.

Just some thoughts.

It’s the word “envy” that has implications. Why would he, an angel, “envy” humans/Adam & Eve?? – and envy to such a degree that he sought to have them to do something he knew would cause death to them?

 

[fred_conty]

You have a good point.

But the devil is the devil precisely because he has already fallen thru sin and not because of his envy of Eve which transpired after his fall.

And according to St. Thomas Aquinas, the devil can no longer sin because his pain is so intense that cannot help himself to curse God and to do terrible things, taking away his responsibility. And therefore he can now no longer sin.

Just some more thoughts.

 

[Aussieman88]

Satan had already fallen. Long before eve sinned.

 

[Nita]

You have a good point.

But the devil is the devil precisely because he has already fallen thru sin and not because of his envy of Eve which transpired after his fall.

I realize he had already fallen, but that still doesn’t change the fact that there was something about humans that roused envy in him. Refusal to serve is what caused Lucifer’s fall; but envy is what caused him to tempt humans to disobey God and thus introduce “death into the world”.

And according to St. Thomas Aquinas, the devil can no longer sin because his pain is so intense that cannot help himself to curse God and to do terrible things, taking away his responsibility. And therefore he can now no longer sin.

Just some more thoughts.

Could you give a reference for the above?

Just pulled out St. Thomas’ Summa Theo. on angels and one of the first things St. Thomas says in there is that "Thus only in the Divine will can there be no sin; whereas there can be sin in the will of every creature; considering the condition of its nature. (Part 1, Art. 1, Q. 63)

I’ll keep reading.

 

[Nita]

And according to St. Thomas Aquinas, the devil can no longer sin because his pain is so intense that cannot help himself to curse God and to do terrible things, taking away his responsibility. And therefore he can now no longer sin.

Just some more thoughts.

I can find nothing in Aquinas’ S.T. that says anything like the above. Please give a reference to where you found it.

 

[littlenothing]

It was definitely pride that caused his fall, hence Michael’s name. His fall was instantaneous. Although it doesn’t say that word in Revelation, it does say a third of the stars fell from the sky. And isn’t there something in the bible about him falling like a comet or something? I don’t even know how to look that up.

He did not want to serve a God who was man. In his overweening pride, he saw himself as superior in all ways to all men. In his vanity, he could not fathom bowing to one who sweats, sleeps and shares part of his nature with beasts.

In his vainglorious need for men to be subject to him, he would not be subject to them, whether God or not. And we humans were to be His children! This enraged him, believing himself to be far above the beasts of the earth…us included.

This was his test. And all the angels’ test. They could serve God and therefore man, or not. And they chose not to. With full knowledge. That is why there was no possible redemption for them.

 

[Nita]

It was definitely pride that caused his fall, hence Michael’s name. His fall was instantaneous. Although it doesn’t say that word in Revelation, it does say a third of the stars fell from the sky. And isn’t there something in the bible about him falling like a comet or something? I don’t even know how to look that up.

Here is a site that helps you locate Bible verses.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_FA.HTM

At the top you’ll see the letters of the alphabet.
Choose one word from those you remember as being in the verse, and click on the alphabet letter with which that word starts. Eg. “third of the stars fell from the sky.”
For the word “third”, click on the letter “T”. All the words that start with “T” will appear.
Scroll till you come to the word “third” and then click on that. Every time the word “third” appears in Scripture will be listed.
Since you know the word was in Revelation, you can quickly scroll down to end of the list to locate your verse. To the left of the verse is a chart that tells you the Book, Chapter and Verse number for that passage.

(It always helps to choose a word that is likely to be used less frequently in Scripture; you’ll have fewer verses to go through.)

 

[Nita]

He did not want to serve a God who was man. In his overweening pride, he saw himself as superior in all ways to all men. In his vanity, he could not fathom bowing to one who sweats, sleeps and shares part of his nature with beasts.

In his vainglorious need for men to be subject to him, he would not be subject to them, whether God or not. And we humans were to be His children! This enraged him, believing himself to be far above the beasts of the earth…us included.

This was his test. And all the angels’ test. They could serve God and therefore man, or not. And they chose not to. With full knowledge. That is why there was no possible redemption for them.

The above would be considered speculation. It is not official Catholic teaching which must be accepted. Speculation on this topic is allowed, but it is important to present it as such and not as though it is official teaching.

There is no official teaching as to what the test for the angels consisted of. We just don’t know.
You can read what the Church does officially teach about the fall of the angels in this brief Catechism section. See paragraphs #391 through #395.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM

 

[littlenothing]

Im not speaking for the Church, although I guess I should add that saint agree with it. But then id have to present links to what the saint said, which I can’t do. I only recall that several were of that opinion. Guess I better to to find some links…

 

[littlenothing]

And obviously none of us know, so this is all speculation with some bolstering from other sources. I never said “The Church teaches that…”

 

[D_Martin]

Patrick Coffin’s interview of exorcist Fr. Gary Thomas;

per Fr. Gary Thomas

• Satan is God’s most powerful angel at creation.
• Then, Satan falls from grace when he and 1/3 of the angels rebel against God over the incarnation, when God chooses to lower himself lower than the nature of angels in order to save humanity, and so the notion that the angels would be forced to pay homage to a god/man was incredulous and so their pride and envy overtook them and seduced them into the dark.

Given that God’s incarnation happened in time approx. 2000 years ago, how do we understand that this was understood by Satan soon after creation? Are angels (fallen and not fallen) outside of time?

Not sure that this is true or not, Satan was already hard at work in seduction back in the Garden. His place in darkness was already assured. It is very possible that those, and especially in this case that have seen the Gory of God and or the Face of God, reject God, will suffer the consequence. This same policy seems to be the same as (Mt:12:31: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.)

One must understand Satan and his spirit friends have seen God’s Face and know what He looks like, and not only recognize it, for example when the possessed would recognize and declare Jesus as the Son of God.

 

[Nita]

Im not speaking for the Church, although I guess I should add that saint agree with it. But then id have to present links to what the saint said, which I can’t do. I only recall that several were of that opinion. Guess I better to to find some links…

And obviously none of us know, so this is all speculation with some bolstering from other sources. I never said “The Church teaches that…”

I didn’t mean to offend, but it was just that you stated it so positively, as though it was fact.
Also, when those of us who list ourselves as “Catholic” post something, it’s important to realize that non-Catholics on this forum are likely to think that what we post is the official Catholic teaching or position – unless we somehow or other indicate otherwise.

You wouldn’t have to state who said it – just that you recall hearing or reading somewhere the proposal/thought that Satan probably…
(If they exist, it’s good and helpful to verify with links or quotes, but it isn’t necessary.)

BTW, I’ve also read the thoughts about Satan’s fall that you gave. But I can’t remember where or by whom – so I can’t provide any links either.

 

[littlenothing]

Sorry, Nita. My fault alone, but I so appreciate your response. Though you didn’t ask, in my job I pretty much feel pummeled from every direction. Its just the nature of it. So, when I get even a small “Touche” on CAF I tend to take it real hard. I just picked up a book by St Francis de Sales that talks about being inviting of criticism. I think I might need to have the chapter tattooed on my arms so I can be reminded every moment!

(Kidding about the tattoos!)