Forensic Justification - what's your view about it?

[Christian_Unity]

Is there another source for this doctrine?

I think the OP clarified this above. She considers Catholicism to be semi-pelagian, and as such, it is not a religion that can lead to salvation.

I never said semi-pelagian cannot lead to salvation. Protestant Arminanism is synergistic like the Catholic view in which both views do lead to salvation.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I guess my response is: who cares? I mean, seriously, we are Christians. Jesus told us to do certain things and refrain from doing certain things. None of those things are difficult to understand. So, really, what possible benefit could this discussion have for anyone?

Our mutually exclusive views of justification has led to our division in the body of Christ for 500 years. Therefore, this is an important topic to discuss.

 

[JRKH]

Our mutually exclusive views of justification has led to our division in the body of Christ for 500 years. Therefore, this is an important topic to discuss.

Actually - I don’t agree with this. There were many factors that led to the Reformation and many factors that sustained it. In fact, it is my opinion that politics have had more to do with keeping us apart than theology.

But - even deeper than that…the thing that keeps us apart is pride. It was pride on both sides that contributed heavily to the schism. It was pride envy and greed (much among the princes of Europe) that sustained and drove many of the events of the immediate post reformation period, and since that time, the various “Reformed churches” have, in many cases moved farther and farther from Holy Mother Church.

As far as the issue of justification goes…My discussions with other Christians on the matter almost always ends with much better understanding and a recognition that, in point of fact, there really isn’t much difference in our views at all.

so - in short…I simply don’t believe that our “different views on Justification” are what has kept us apart at all…Justification is really something that could be easily disposed of if pride can be set aside.

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

I never said semi-pelagian cannot lead to salvation. Protestant Arminanism is synergistic like the Catholic view in which both views do lead to salvation.

Thanks for clarifying. How can any view that takes the position that we can “earn” grace by our own human efforts apart from faith lead to salvation?

Scripture is pretty clear.

Titus 3:4-7
5 he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6 This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Where is there any place in here for works of the flesh?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Thanks for clarifying. How can any view that takes the position that we can “earn” grace by our own human efforts apart from faith lead to salvation?

Scripture is pretty clear.

Titus 3:4-7
5 he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6 This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Where is there any place in here for works of the flesh?

Am I correct to say that the CCC teaches that your works done in Christ are meritorious which is needed for eternal justification? After-all, if the righteousness of Christ is not imputed to your account as being sufficient for you for eternal justification at conversion, then you guys do need meritorious works of your own to be eternally justified. We are close but really far apart when you think about it.

 

[JRKH]

Am I correct to say that the CCC teaches that your works done in Christ are meritorious which is needed for eternal justification? After-all, if the righteousness of Christ is not imputed to your account as being sufficient for you for eternal justification at conversion, then you guys do need meritorious works of your own to be eternally justified. We are close but really far apart when you think about it.

I really think that if you read what St James has to say about the matter - the relationship between faith and works - you will have a very good idea of the Catholic position on the matter.
James 2…
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith…
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. …
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Since this information is part and parcel of the Holy Scripture, I cannot see why any true “Sola Scripturist” should have any problem with the idea of works (when possible) being a necessary part of salvation.
Oh - we may express things differently, one might say “faith plus works”, another might say “works that stem from faith”, yet another might say “faith that works”…But in the end, these are simply semantic devices, each trying to express the same thing.

That faith without works is a dead faith and cannot save.

The Holy Spirit, through St James, says so…Why do people wish to argue with the Holy Spirit as recorded in Scripture?

Peace
James

 

[Julia_Mae]

Our mutually exclusive views of justification has led to our division in the body of Christ for 500 years. Therefore, this is an important topic to discuss.

We don’t have mutually exclusive views. You seem to think so, but then, you also seem unwilling to answer my questions about it and you also haven’t said anything with which the Church disagrees that I can see.

It was never “forensic” justification that led to schism, anyway. And it’s irrelevant to discuss in terms of the division as nothing we say will have a bit of impact on that.

What is it you hope to accomplish here? Jesus Christ told us to feed the hungry, Paul told us we had to do good works. What’s your problem with everyone just doing what they are told?

Applying all this pseudo-intellectualism to simple matters of faith only serves the ego.

Go feed or clothe someone, go visit the imprisoned, go follow Jesus Christ. What else is there to do?

 

[CopticChristian]

Colossians 2:13-15 – Forensic Justification

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Forensic Justification - what’s your view about it? Since this is a Catholic Forum site, please explain why this Protestant view is incorrect.

---

Ad,

Your understanding is required. Here is my understanding of what you propose. Respond to this.

**Extrinsic Justification. **

This is justification by grace alone the doctrine of extrinsic justification and the rejection of the Catholic view of faith formed by charity as “saving faith.” Extrinsic justification is the idea that justification occurs outside of man, rather than within him. The Reformers, like the Catholic Church, insisted that justification is by grace and therefore originates outside of man, with God. But they also insisted that when God justifies man, man is not changed but merely declared just or righteous. God treats man as if he were just or righteous, imputing to man the righteousness of Christ, rather than imparting it to him. Calvin tried to circumvent the biblical problems of the extrinsic justification theory by positing a systematic distinction between justification, which puts us in right relation to God but which, on the Protestant view, doesn’t involve a change in man; and sanctification, which transforms us. Yet this systematic distinction isn’t biblical.

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church defines Justification as sonship and is outlined in the Council of Trent. Many Protestants see Justification as an external act. Working through this there is confusion.

To have Faith that Justifies you must be born again and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Justification has nothing to do with inner moral transformation. It is only a external, forensic, legal, juridical, extrinsic act of God in His actions as a Judge, imputing Christ’s righteousness to my heavenly account.

There is an inconsistency.

To be justified you have to have Faith. To have Justifying Faith you need to be reborn through the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that gives you Faith.

I am justified legally by Faith alone apart from any moral transformation although that moral transformation occurred prior to the justification and the Faith that justifies is the result of the inner transformation of the soul brought about by the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration is required to have Faith that justifies and Justification is declated to be a legal act.

It appears, according to this paradigm, that regeneration occurs on account of something that is done, a work. It appears that there is an inner transformation and yet justification is considered only external.

Tell me your understanding of what it is you believe Justification to be.

 

[guanophore]

Am I correct to say that the CCC teaches that your works done in Christ are meritorious which is needed for eternal justification? After-all, if the righteousness of Christ is not imputed to your account as being sufficient for you for eternal justification at conversion, then you guys do need meritorious works of your own to be eternally justified. We are close but really far apart when you think about it.

Close. Yes, works done in Christ are meritorious, but those works originate and are carried out in grace, through faith, and therefore, cannot qualify under the Pelagian concept you mentioned. The Church teaches that the quality of faith that saves is a faith that works. If it is not a working faith, then it is not a saving faith.

Gal 5:5-6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is** faith working through love. **

The Church teaches that the righteousness of Christ imputed to our accout is sufficient for justification at the point of regeneration. We have received the Apostolic teaching that baptism justifies, and when a person is baptized, all sin both personal and original is washed away, and the soul enters eternal life in Christ.

You seem to be confused about the nature of “meritorious works done in Christ” because you say that they are “of your own”. This is not the case. It is not possible to do a meritorious work in Christ “on our own”. These works emanate from grace, through faith, and by definition cannot come from the flesh.

Phil 2:12-13

Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, **work out your own salvation **with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

There is a world of difference between “working out” and “working on”. Working “on” our own salvation would, indeed fall under the semi-pelagian category you mention. But the “working out” is cooperating with the grace that has been infused in us at baptism which enables us to will and to do His good pleasure.

2 Peter 1:3-11

His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature. 5 **For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith **with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, 7 and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For anyone who lacks these things is short-sighted and blind, and is forgetful of the cleansing of past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more eager to confirm your call and election, for if you do this, you will never stumble. 11 For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.

We have already been sealed by the HS, so we have everything we need for life and godliness. We are participants in the divine nature, which enables us to “make every effort” to support our faith (a saving faith that works) with thes good (meritorious) deeds. As you see her in v. 9, our past sins were already cleansed, and this condition of being justified before God enables us to be effective and fruitful. The implication is that, if we are not engaged in these meritorious works, we are unfruitful, ineffective, and short sighted (losing sight of the fact that we have been justified).

 

[Christian_Unity]

His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature. 5 **For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith **with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, 7 and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For anyone who lacks these things is short-sighted and blind, and is forgetful of the cleansing of past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more eager to confirm your call and election, for if you do this, you will never stumble. 11 For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.

Peter 1:3-11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us [a]by His own glory and **excellence. 4 [c]For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral [d]excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

2 Peter 1:3-11
English Standard Version (ESV)

Confirm Your Calling and Election
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to[a] his own glory and excellence,** 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,[c] and virtue with knowledge**, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities[d] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers,[e] be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Translations tend to be slanded toward a person’s viewpoint.**

 

[guanophore]

Peter 1:3-11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us [a]by His own glory and excellence. 4 [c]For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral [d]excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

2 Peter 1:3-11
English Standard Version (ESV)

Confirm Your Calling and Election
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to[a] his own glory and excellence,** 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,[c] and virtue with knowledge**, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities[d] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers,[e] be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Translations tend to be slanded toward a person’s viewpoint.

I would not dispute that, since Catholic translations are effort". Do not both of them entail work on the part of the hearer? Are we not in agreement on these items?

1. The Apostle is writing to believers
2. The Apostle is writing in the imperative (command voice)
3. Our faith is to be supported by meritorious works

You might consider this part of the process sanctification, since your systematic theology, designed 1600 years after this was written, separates justification from sactification in a way the Apostles do not. However, the bottom line is the same. Faith that saves is faith that works.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Close. Yes, works done in Christ are meritorious, but those works originate and are carried out in grace, through faith, and therefore, cannot qualify under the Pelagian concept you mentioned. The Church teaches that the quality of faith that saves is a faith that works. If it is not a working faith, then it is not a saving faith.

Gal 5:5-6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is** faith working through love. **

The Church teaches that the righteousness of Christ imputed to our accout is sufficient for justification at the point of regeneration. We have received the Apostolic teaching that baptism justifies, and when a person is baptized, all sin both personal and original is washed away, and the soul enters eternal life in Christ.

You seem to be confused about the nature of “meritorious works done in Christ” because you say that they are “of your own”. This is not the case. It is not possible to do a meritorious work in Christ “on our own”. These works emanate from grace, through faith, and by definition cannot come from the flesh.

The Catholic way of salvation is synergistic for initial justification and the life of the Catholic striving for eternal justification. There seems to be lot’s of emphasis of co-operation between God and man through means of grace provided through the Catholic Church with the seven sacraments. When I post that meritorious works is done in Christ, I am implying it is work done from dispensed grace through faith and not of the flesh. Ultimately, the Catholic view of salvation means mankind determines his own fate by cooperating with God through the Catholic sacraments for strength and progress. That does make the Catholic Church essential for the Catholic Christian since sacraments that strengthens flows from the Catholic Church.

For the Catholic sibling in comparison to Reformation theology, only the historic Reformed Christian can boast that salvation is all of God. The Catholic view allows the individual to boast in his part of salvation, and the Catholic individual becomes sovereign over God… which is a very difficult view to receive since we do not want to rob God of His glory for saving wretched sinners like me and you. The Catholic also can never have assurance or confidence that you are a true child of God through adoption since your adoption is always conditional upon how you cooperate with God. Heck, you can be faithful your entire life, and commit a mortal sin near the end of your life and die without being restored to a state of grace. Would it be fair to say that you guys are conditional adopted children of God?

 

[Christian_Unity]

I would not dispute that, since Catholic translations are effort". Do not both of them entail work on the part of the hearer? Are we not in agreement on these items?

1. The Apostle is writing to believers
2. The Apostle is writing in the imperative (command voice)
3. Our faith is to be supported by meritorious works

You might consider this part of the process sanctification, since your systematic theology, designed 1600 years after this was written, separates justification from sactification in a way the Apostles do not. However, the bottom line is the same. Faith that saves is faith that works.

We are defintely siblings in Christ, but two things seem obvious in our differences. The role of the Catholic Church is extremely big for the Catholic Christian since she dispenses the grace of God through the sacarments. Yet Protetstants do not receive the Catholic sacraments from her, but we still know God through Christ and by His grace we endure to end and are saved to the praise of His glorious justifying and transforming grace.

The Catholic view does allow mankind to boast in his part of salvation, since the Catholic view cannot ever say that salvation is all of God… to the praise of His saving and transforming grace. Does that seem correct?

We are not saved by faith, rather faith is the instrument in which the grace of God flows through, We are saved by the work of Christ which merits the grace we receive. Christ saves or the grace earned for us by Christ saves us.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[guanophore]

Peter 1:3-11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Translations tend to be slanded toward a person’s viewpoint.

I looked up the Greek:

DILIGENCE, DILIGENT, DILIGENTLY
ergasia NT:2039, (a) lit., “a working” (akin to ergon, “work”), is indicative of a process, in contrast to the concrete, ergon, e. g., Eph 4:19, lit., “unto a working” (RV marg., “to make a trade of”); contrast ergon in v. 12; (b) “business,” Acts 19:25, RV (for KJV, “craft”); or gain got by “work,” Acts 16:16,19; 19:24; (c)** endeavor, pains, “diligence**,” Luke 12:58. See CRAFT, GAIN, WORK.
(from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

NT:2039

ergasia (er-gas-ee’-ah); from NT:2040; occupation; by implication, profits, pains:

(Biblesoft’s New Exhaustive Strong’s Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It seems clear that this word refers to activity on the part of the human person. Of course the Apostle is not suggesting we can “work” our way into heaven, but we are to “work out” what is at work within us.

Rom 7:18-20
18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.

There is nothing good in the works of the flesh. Any good works we do must begin and end in, for and through grace. That is the distinction between Pelagian and Catholic theology. Pelagian denied this teaching of the Apostle.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.

It is the HS within us that is enables us to walk by the Spirit, and not by the flesh. When we walk by the Spirit we do not the works of the flesh.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I looked up the Greek:

DILIGENCE, DILIGENT, DILIGENTLY
ergasia NT:2039, (a) lit., “a working” (akin to ergon, “work”), is indicative of a process, in contrast to the concrete, ergon, e. g., Eph 4:19, lit., “unto a working” (RV marg., “to make a trade of”); contrast ergon in v. 12; (b) “business,” Acts 19:25, RV (for KJV, “craft”); or gain got by “work,” Acts 16:16,19; 19:24; (c)** endeavor, pains, “diligence**,” Luke 12:58. See CRAFT, GAIN, WORK.
(from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

NT:2039

ergasia (er-gas-ee’-ah); from NT:2040; occupation; by implication, profits, pains:

(Biblesoft’s New Exhaustive Strong’s Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It seems clear that this word refers to activity on the part of the human person. Of course the Apostle is not suggesting we can “work” our way into heaven, but we are to “work out” what is at work within us.

Rom 7:18-20
18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.

There is nothing good in the works of the flesh. Any good works we do must begin and end in, for and through grace. That is the distinction between Pelagian and Catholic theology. Pelagian denied this teaching of the Apostle.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.

It is the HS within us that is enables us to walk by the Spirit, and not by the flesh. When we walk by the Spirit we do not the works of the flesh.

Quick point, Can Protestant Christians walk by the Spirit without participating in the Catholic sacarments that are dispense exclusively by the Catholic Church?

 

[guanophore]

Quick point, Can Protestant Christians walk by the Spirit without participating in the Catholic sacarments that are dispense exclusively by the Catholic Church?

Actually the Eastern Orthodox, also founded and entrusted with the One Faith from the Apostles, also have valid sacraments. But yes, of course, people who don’t even know Christ can respond to His grace outside the sacraments. I think that many of our separated brethren live a more grace filled life than Catholics who have access to the sacraments instituted by Christ for our spiritual growth and well being.

We are bound by the Sacraments, God is not. He can pour out His grace any way He chooses. He has chosen to contain it within Sacraments, but it is not limited to them.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think it is very clear about our salvation from the words of Christ Himself in the Gospel regarding the Last Judgment, “I was naked and you covered Me”, “I was hungry and you fed Me”, …

God does not need us. What He needs from us is our most profound love for Him. And Christ said that those who eat and drink of Him will have eternal life. So the Eucharist is the means that will give us eternal life.

The Protestants do not have the Eucharist. And we must let God be God as He alone will judge for those who do not believe in the Eucharist. So many Protestants have had so much fear put into them about the Catholic Church, the worthlessness of the sacraments and the ‘god man pope’, that they have a profound emotional block of approaching our faith with reason and study.

The Protestants have the Holy Spirit through Baptism as do Catholics. But just because a Catholic has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not mean that Catholic will go to heaven. All we have to do is look at the public arena and see public Catholics not upholding the sanctity of human life, as God alone is the author of life, not us.

Our justification is found in the life of Christ He provided us in the Church. We know that it is only of Christ that we can brag. Afterall, that reading comes up from many angles at the Liturgy of the Word.

We can say we love God, we follow the Bible alone and not man, but right there such a statement is founded in religious pride. The Lord said many will cry out, “Lord, Lord”, do miracles in His name, and do great penances. But only those who follow His will to the end will be saved.

In meeting with the rich young man, Christ affirmed that the young man followed all of the commandments…those pointed out to him by Christ in regard to one’s neighbor. But then Christ called him to the greater reality of denying all of one’s riches and possessions and the rich young man walked away.

Christ is calling us to detachment from all material things and to care for our neighbor as proof of love for Him. Our salvation, according to Christ, is the greatest sign in how we care for the poor and suffering…this all nourished by the Eucharist…the Sacrificial Lamb and carrying the Cross…no place for the Prosperity Gospel.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Actually the Eastern Orthodox, also founded and entrusted with the One Faith from the Apostles, also have valid sacraments. But yes, of course, people who don’t even know Christ can respond to His grace outside the sacraments. I think that many of our separated brethren live a more grace filled life than Catholics who have access to the sacraments instituted by Christ for our spiritual growth and well being.

We are bound by the Sacraments, God is not. He can pour out His grace any way He chooses. He has chosen to contain it within Sacraments, but it is not limited to them.

Protestants circle debate over calling communion and baptism sacraments or ordinances. I do believe that the two Protestant sacraments are means of sanctifying grace when received in faith. Obviously, I do not believe in baptismal regeneration. Do you believe Protestants have valid sacraments like the Eastern Orthodox Church? Do you believe the grace of God flows through faith beyond the seven Catholic sacraments for Catholics? For instance, Protestants believe receiving the promises of God revealed in the Word of God as a means of grace which when receiving the promises of God; we receive transforming and persevering grace. Do Catholics receive grace through faith by believing the Word of God, separate and apart from the seven Catholic sacraments? Does the Eastern Orthodox Church have priests who change the elements in the Eucharist to the flesh and blood of Christ similar to Catholic Priests?

 

[Christian_Unity]

.no place for the Prosperity Gospel.

I agree that the prosperity gospel is a false gospel.

 

[KathleenGee]

I will answer you on side…you can take it or leave it.

The Protestants, if they profess faith in the Holy Trinity in the baptismal rite, are actually doing the Catholic rite of baptism. So in essence, protestants being baptized in this rite are being baptized into the Catholic Church.

That is why when we pray for the Protestants at Mass, they are always referred to as our separated brethren…a reflection of the holy communion we are called to enter and reside as Catholics.

Baptism washes away Original Sin and incorporates us into the Mystical Body of Christ. Baptism is a sacrament and the minister actually this is no other than Jesus Christ Himself, the sole High Priest. The priest or lay is acting in the place of Jesus Christ as minister of this sacrament.

Fundamentalists, Bible alone Christians, for the most part, have only one baptism in their belief system. But by baptism they are brethren to us.

You cannot wash baptism off and go to another community or church to be re-baptized.
The Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptisms if they follow appropriate form. There are also two other means of baptism: One of desire who is otherwise unable to be baptized with the proper rite, and the baptism of blood, where an innocent person is unjustly murdered and through desire for God and all goodness, is baptized through the shedding of one’s blood.

So depending on the understanding of the profession of faith by a Protestant, if they believe in the Catholic Apostles/Nicene Creed and the presence of Christ through sanctifying grace in all the 7 sacraments, they can go to Mass the following day, depending on the decision by the local pastor.

ChristianUnity, what you first need to understand is the nature and mission of the Church. The nature of the Church is mystological. The life of the Church is Jesus Christ Himself. When we draw on the life of Jesus Christ in the Church, we are living in sanctifying grace and not living on the material life of this world.

When a Catholic is in the state of serious/grave sin, he is not in the Church, and must be restored through sacramental confession.