Forensic Justification - what's your view about it?

[Christian_Unity]

Jesus taught that we are born again in baptism, and this has been the constant teaching and practice of the Church. God, however, can regenerate a person anyway He wants, just as He did John the Baptist before he was born.

I believe many Protestants have a baptism of desire, just as we would say of the catechumens who may perish before sacramental baptism can be administered. The question would be, if Jesus instituted that it be done this way, why would any committed believer fail to obey Him?

As has been said, most Protestant baptisms are really Catholic, since they have the valid form and matter. The Church recognizes all Trinitarian baptisms done by our separated brethren because they intend to do what Jesus commanded. Yet for us it is not “symbolic” only but efficacious.

1 Cor 6:10-11
11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I like Fausett’s commentary on this verse:

BAPTISM
baptism with water is the visible laver of regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
(from Fausset’s Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998 by Biblesoft)

You can understand why Protestants love to quote the Apostle Paul

1 Corinthians 1:16-18
English Standard Version (ESV)

16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Cross references:1 Corinthians 1:16 : ch. 16:15, 171 Corinthians 1:17 : ch. 2:1, 4, 13; [2 Cor. 10:10; 11:6; 2 Pet. 1:16]1 Corinthians 1:18 : ver. 21, 23, 25; ch. 2:141 Corinthians 1:18 : 2 Cor. 2:15; 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:101 Corinthians 1:18 : ch. 15:2; [Acts 2:47]1 Corinthians 1:18 : Rom. 1:16; [ver. 24]

 

[guanophore]

 You can understand why Protestants love to quote the Apostle Paul ;)

Yes. I think he is the best loved Catholic for most Protestants.

1 Corinthians 1:16-18
English Standard Version (ESV)

16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Many Protestants use this verse to “prove” that baptism is not essential or that the Apostles did not find it necessary. Nothing can be further from the Truth. Paul’s charism was preaching and teaching. Although he did administer sacraments such as baptism, he generally had others to help with that so that he could be free to teach and preach. If he baptized all the converts that came to faith through his preaching, he would never have time to preach!

This is in fact one of the first reasons that deacons were ordained:

Acts 6:1-3
2 And the twelve called together the whole community of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should neglect the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3 Therefore, friends, select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task,

The Apostles’ and the Bishops after them had the primary duty of preaching and teaching. This did not mean that other tasks were not essential and important, just that others could do them as well.

Paul’s preaching of the gospel was never separated from baptism for those who accepted the Word.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Cross references:1 Corinthians 1:16 : ch. 16:15, 171 Corinthians 1:17 : ch. 2:1, 4, 13; [2 Cor. 10:10; 11:6; 2 Pet. 1:16]1 Corinthians 1:18 : ver. 21, 23, 25; ch. 2:141 Corinthians 1:18 : 2 Cor. 2:15; 4:3; 2 Thess. 2:101 Corinthians 1:18 : ch. 15:2; [Acts 2:47]1 Corinthians 1:18 : Rom. 1:16; [ver. 24]

Indeed the cross is the wisdom and the power of God unto salvation!

This is one of the mysteries of baptism, that through it, we are united to Him in His death on the cross, and also in His resurrection.

Rom 6:2-4
How can we who died to sin go on living in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Yes. I think he is the best loved Catholic for most Protestants.

1 Corinthians 1:16-18
English Standard Version (ESV)

16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Many Protestants use this verse to “prove” that baptism is not essential or that the Apostles did not find it necessary. Nothing can be further from the Truth. Paul’s charism was preaching and teaching. Although he did administer sacraments such as baptism, he generally had others to help with that so that he could be free to teach and preach. If he baptized all the converts that came to faith through his preaching, he would never have time to preach!

This is in fact one of the first reasons that deacons were ordained:

Acts 6:1-3
2 And the twelve called together the whole community of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should neglect the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3 Therefore, friends, select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task,

The Apostles’ and the Bishops after them had the primary duty of preaching and teaching. This did not mean that other tasks were not essential and important, just that others could do them as well.

Paul’s preaching of the gospel was never separated from baptism for those who accepted the Word.

Indeed the cross is the wisdom and the power of God unto salvation!

This is one of the mysteries of baptism, that through it, we are united to Him in His death on the cross, and also in His resurrection.

Rom 6:2-4
How can we who died to sin go on living in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Yep, I agree with Romans 6:2-4; howeever, I see that baptism as one that the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ, which is seperate than the one done by the hands of men in the sacrament of baptism in symbolizing what the Spirit already did. Do you believe people are born from above by hearing and receivng the gospel before partaking in the sacrament of baptism?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Yes. I think he is the best loved Catholic for most Protestants.

1 Corinthians 1:16-18
English Standard Version (ESV)

16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Many Protestants use this verse to “prove” that baptism is not essential or that the Apostles did not find it necessary. Nothing can be further from the Truth. Paul’s charism was preaching and teaching. Although he did administer sacraments such as baptism, he generally had others to help with that so that he could be free to teach and preach. If he baptized all the converts that came to faith through his preaching, he would never have time to preach!

This is in fact one of the first reasons that deacons were ordained:

Acts 6:1-3
2 And the twelve called together the whole community of the disciples and said, "It is not right that we should neglect the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3 Therefore, friends, select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task,

The Apostles’ and the Bishops after them had the primary duty of preaching and teaching. This did not mean that other tasks were not essential and important, just that others could do them as well.

Paul’s preaching of the gospel was never separated from baptism for those who accepted the Word.

Indeed the cross is the wisdom and the power of God unto salvation!

This is one of the mysteries of baptism, that through it, we are united to Him in His death on the cross, and also in His resurrection.

Rom 6:2-4
How can we who died to sin go on living in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Yep, I agree with Romans 6:2-4; howeever, I see that baptism as one that the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ, which is seperate than the one done by the hands of men in the sacrament of baptism in symbolizing what the Spirit already did. Do you believe people are born from above by hearing and receivng the gospel before partaking in the sacrament of baptism?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Rom 6:2-4
How can we who died to sin go on living in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Yep, I agree with Romans 6:2-4; howeever, I see that baptism as one that the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ, which is seperate than the one done by the hands of men in the sacrament of baptism in symbolizing what the Spirit already did. Do you believe people are born from above by hearing and receivng the gospel before partaking in the sacrament of baptism?

 

[guanophore]

Rom 6:2-4
How can we who died to sin go on living in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Yep, I agree with Romans 6:2-4; howeever, I see that baptism as one that the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ, which is seperate than the one done by the hands of men in the sacrament of baptism in symbolizing what the Spirit already did. Do you believe people are born from above by hearing and receivng the gospel before partaking in the sacrament of baptism?

Actually, what we are discussing here is an interpretation. Catholics interpret this verse one way, Reformed Christian’s another. Of course we will both say we “agree” with the scripture.

Yes, that baptism is the one in which the HS unites us to Christ, but it is not separated by the one that involves water. Jesus entered the waters of baptism, joining the HS to them. The Aposltes never separated them, so we don’t either.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

This is why the ancient creeds say “one baptism”.

Where in the Bible does it say that baptism is symbolic?

 

[De_Maria]

As I understand it, God judges we are absolved of sin because Jesus’ perfect life and His sacrifice on the cross has take our place in judgement. Works are not required for salvation, but are a demonstration of our thanks and gratitude for this.

Forensic means “legal”.

Justification means “made righteous”.

Therefore the terminology “Forensic Justification” means that God does not actually wash our sins away and make us new creatures. But that God simply “declares” that we are without sin and “imputes” (as opposed to infusing) His righteousness upon us.

A handy metaphor to remember is that Luther taught that we are “snow covered dunghills”. The grace of God which is imputed in justification does not actually change our souls, but covers the sinfulness with the righteousness of Christ.

Whereas, the Catholic Church, clearly teaches in Scripture and in all soteriological doctrines, that God’s mercy washes our souls of sin and we become new creatures, born again in Christ.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Okay, maybe that is too much to open a discussion. Let’s start here and see what happens:

religioustolerance.org/chr_just.htm

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, - Romans 4:5

Are you starting with Romans 4:5? With all due respect, what do you do with the rest of Romans? Let’s go back to a few chapters to Romans 2.

Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Here is the Catholic Teaching in a nutshell. Those who do the works of the Law shall be justified. Not those who don’t.

The Jewish teaching is such, if one keeps the Commandments of God, God will shed His mercy upon them on the last day.

However, the Christian Teaching is this, if one keeps the Commandments of God, that one may approach the Fountain of Grace which is Baptism and be saved.

Note that in both cases, one is saved, without works. They have worked prior and have found grace in the eyes of God. Now it is God’s turn to reward the “ungodly” who can’t help themselves because they do not have God’ power, they are not gods but human beings.

Therefore, those who do the works which God commanded, will be saved by God. God will shed His mercy upon them. It is written so in the first books of Scripture and in the last. It is the absolute truth about salvation. It is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Exodus 20:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Revelation 22:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I believe Reformed Theology teaches that justification is monergistic, yet sanctification is synergistic.

The Catholic Church teaches that justification and sanctification are synergistic.

Would it be accurate to say that Catholic Theology is similar to Arminian Protestant theology in regards to a synergistic conversion?

I have no idea. I don’t keep track of every different Protestant teaching. There are too many. I know that semi-pelagianism is a heresy which was condemned by the Catholic Church.

A doctrine of grace advocated by monks of Southern Gaul at and around Marseilles after 428. It aimed at a compromise between the two extremes of Pelagianism and Augustinism, and was condemned as heresy at the Œcumenical Council of Orange in 529 …
newadvent.org/cathen/13703a.htm

In my view, I see that the Catholic view to be one of semi-Pelagius; somewhere between the view of Augustine and Pelagius on the issues of salvation and conversion.

Semi-pelagianism teaches that man only needs God some of the time.

The Catholic Church teaches that man needs God all of the time.

These are tough issues to discuss, but both Ariminian Protestantism and the Catholic Faith puts great weight on man’s free will and ability to believe in Christ.

The Scripture puts great weight on man’s free will and ability to accept and follow Christ:

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

Forensic means “legal”.

Justification means “made righteous”.

Therefore the terminology “Forensic Justification” means that God does not actually wash our sins away and make us new creatures. But that God simply “declares” that we are without sin and “imputes” (as opposed to infusing) His righteousness upon us.

A handy metaphor to remember is that Luther taught that we are “snow covered dunghills”. The grace of God which is imputed in justification does not actually change our souls, but covers the sinfulness with the righteousness of Christ.

Whereas, the Catholic Church, clearly teaches in Scripture and in all soteriological doctrines, that God’s mercy washes our souls of sin and we become new creatures, born again in Christ.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I think part of that misconception comes from passages like this one:

Col 2:12-15
13 And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when** he forgave us all our trespasses**, 14 erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.

Paul here is clearly using legal terms and concepts. It is as if he is saying “the case was dismissed”.

I notice they interpret this as “past, present and future sins”. That concept seems to be frequently inserted into the text.

 

[De_Maria]

I think part of that misconception comes from passages like this one:

Col 2:12-15
13 And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when** he forgave us all our trespasses**, 14 erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.

Paul here is clearly using legal terms and concepts. It is as if he is saying “the case was dismissed”.

I notice they interpret this as “past, present and future sins”. That concept seems to be frequently inserted into the text.

You might be correct. But I’ll await Christian Unity’s or another Protestant’s explanation of why they believe what they believe. I personally believe it is rude to sit around putting words in other people’s mouths, be they Catholic or Protestant. And I find speculation on the matter, unproductive.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

It seems that you believe that you merit salvation through good works done in Christ, correct?

Yes. By God’s grace.

Here is the Catholic Teaching:
TRENT VI
CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.…
ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

Does that say that we do not merit the grace of salvation? No. It says that nothing that we do is equal to the grace of salvation.

Here’s a short parable or metaphor to press home the point. Suppose that a billionaire drives through your neighborhood. He gets a flat tire, but he’s in the middle of a phone call making a deal worth gazillions of dollars.

He sees you working in your yard and asks you if you will accept a hundred thousand dollars in exchange for changing his flat.

That would be a gift, wouldn’t it. The exchange is ridiculously one sided. Changing a tire, in the real market is worth perhaps $20 box and that is high.

Its the same with salvation. God asks us to love Him and treat our neighbors with respect and in exchange, will be given eternal life in union with Him.

God made the rules, not we. Scripture says:

Matthew 25:31-46
King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Without God’ s grace, it would be impossible for us to merit anything by our faith or our works.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Our mutually exclusive views of justification has led to our division in the body of Christ for 500 years. Therefore, this is an important topic to discuss.

I agree.

So, let’s go through the Scripture and apply the test of which view is agrees with Scripture and which doesn’t.

Does Scripture say that we are justified by faith alone? Not to my view. If it did, it would contradict itself and that is impossible. Here is the most explicit text on the matter:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,** and not by faith only**.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

We are defintely siblings in Christ, but two things seem obvious in our differences. The role of the Catholic Church is extremely big for the Catholic Christian since she dispenses the grace of God through the sacarments.

Correct. Through the Sacraments we receive the sanctifying grace of Jesus Christ.

Yet Protetstants do not receive the Catholic sacraments from her,

Then where did you get the Sacrament of Baptism?

but we still know God through Christ and by His grace we endure to end and are saved to the praise of His glorious justifying and transforming grace.

If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church, which passed on the Scriptures through all generations, you would not know God through Christ, today.

The Catholic view does allow mankind to boast in his part of salvation, since the Catholic view cannot ever say that salvation is all of God…

Two things here?

1. Have you ever heard a Catholic boast about his salvation? I haven’t. I’ve heard plenty of Protestants boast however.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Protestants who sit on street corners and besiege people with the question, “Are you saved?”

And if we answer, “I don’t know.” Which is the Biblical answer. They get upset, because they don’t know the Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 4:2-4
King James Version (KJV)
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

We await the Judgment of our Lord and that infuriates Protestants. They want to judge themselves saved. And then they continually boast in their salvation which they caused by their faith alone.

1. It is Protestants who boast of their salvation. Catholics hold to the Teaching of the Church which is expounded in Scripture:

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

to the praise of His saving and transforming grace. Does that seem correct?

Your characterization of Catholics seems incorrect. We do not boast in our works. Protestants accuse us of it, but they are lying between their teeth when they say so.

However, Protestants do proclaim themselves more faithful than anyone else and extol themselves as holier than the rest of the human race. But Scripture says:

Luke 14:11
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

We are not saved by faith, rather faith is the instrument in which the grace of God flows through, We are saved by the work of Christ which merits the grace we receive. Christ saves or the grace earned for us by Christ saves us.

That is Catholic Teaching. Now factor in the fact that if you do not do the works of God, you won’t be saved and you will understand it perfectly.

Romans 2:7-12
King James Version (KJV)
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Read on.

Ephesians 2:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We were created in the womb in order that when we were born, we would do the works which God ordained from the beginning. The Ten Commandments. And those who do not walk in His works, will not be saved.

Do you deny it?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

The Catholic way of salvation is synergistic for initial justification

Hm? Here’s the exact Catholic Teaching:

TRENT VI
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called;…
ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm

In other words, God offers salvation to all, without any merit on their part. However, if they accept the offer of salvation, then they must keep their end of the bargain. They must keep the Commandments.

and the life of the Catholic striving for eternal justification.

That sounds correct:

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

There seems to be lot’s of emphasis of co-operation between God and man through means of grace provided through the Catholic Church with the seven sacraments.

For Catholics. But everyone must cooperate with the grace of God, whether it be through the Sacraments or the ordinary graces of everyday life.

When I post that meritorious works is done in Christ, I am implying it is work done from dispensed grace through faith and not of the flesh.

That would agree with Catholic Teaching. Scripture says:

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Ultimately, the Catholic view of salvation means mankind determines his own fate by cooperating with God through the Catholic sacraments for strength and progress.

I would agree:
1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

That does make the Catholic Church essential for the Catholic Christian since sacraments that strengthens flows from the Catholic Church.

For the Catholic. True.

For the Catholic sibling in comparison to Reformation theology, only the historic Reformed Christian can boast that salvation is all of God.

Not true. You only come to that opinion if you discard some of the Scriptures. Scripture says that we cooperate in our salvation and that salvation is all of God all in one breath.

Example:
Philippians 2:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

When we work, it is God working in us. Yet God credits us with the work:
Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister

The Catholic view allows the individual to boast in his part of salvation,

And yet, Catholics don’t boast, but Protestants do.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

and the Catholic individual becomes sovereign over God…

On the contrary, it is the Catholic who obeys God and accepts God’s judgment. It is the Protestant who claims sovereignty over God by dismissing God’s judgment and replacing it with his own.

which is a very difficult view to receive since we do not want to rob God of His glory for saving wretched sinners like me and you.

That is why we obey God and thus give Him glory through our works:

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

The Catholic also can never have assurance or confidence that you are a true child of God through adoption since your adoption is always conditional upon how you cooperate with God.

It is Protestants who can’t. We believe that we are justified in Baptism. You don’t.

Heck, you can be faithful your entire life, and commit a mortal sin near the end of your life and die without being restored to a state of grace.

Have you not read in Scripture:
Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Have you not also read in Scripture:
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God doesn’t change. If a man turn away from God, he will be condemned.

Would it be fair to say that you guys are conditional adopted children of God?

No. We believe in our adoption. We cry “Abba, Father” when we pray to God as Jesus commanded. You, on the other hand, deny the effectiveness of Baptism. Therefore, you deny your rebirth as children of God:

Colossians 2:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[JonNC]

Yes, that baptism is the one in which the HS unites us to Christ, but it is not separated by the one that involves water. Jesus entered the waters of baptism, joining the HS to them. The Aposltes never separated them, so we don’t either.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

This is why the ancient creeds say “one baptism”.

This.

Where in the Bible does it say that baptism is symbolic?

A question for which I await an answer.

Jon

 

[De_Maria]

Rom 6:2-4
How can we who died to sin go on living in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Yep, I agree with Romans 6:2-4; howeever, I see that baptism as one that the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ, which is seperate than the one done by the hands of men in the sacrament of baptism in symbolizing what the Spirit already did. Do you believe people are born from above by hearing and receivng the gospel before partaking in the sacrament of baptism?

Scripture speaks of circumcision without hands, in reference to Baptism:
Colossians 2:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

There is no reference to a Baptism without hands.

Scripture tells us that the Baptism of Christ is Baptism by water.

Acts 8:38
King James Version (KJV)
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Christ has given the water the power to infuse the Holy Spirit into all those who believe:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

You sure take Catholic apologetics seriously.

As is proper.

Don’t worry; I’m not here to try to sake the faith of any Catholic siblings.

Then why are you here?

I do believe there will be no Catholic or Protestant distinction in Heaven.

Perhaps, but Scripture says that judgment begins at the Church.

1 Peter 4:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And that the Church will judge even angels:
1 Corinthians 6:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

So, for those who want to be saved, the distinction is very critical here on earth:

I say, live and let live according to your own Christian conscience. One day, we will all be catholic.

That is a judgment which God will make:
Matthew 7:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic way of salvation is synergistic for initial justification

I understand how it might seem that way to you, since we believe that God loves us, and we are made in His image and likeness. We believe that God is Love, and as such, He allows us to choose to partake of His divine nature, or refuse it. Catholics don’t consider the matter of choice to be “synergistic” in the sense that it is a human effort (apart from grace).

So along these lines, I have a question for you about justification. Please refer to Acts ch. 10 and tell me at what point was Cornelius justified?

and the life of the Catholic striving for eternal justification.

This is not entirely accurate, since we have already been justified by grace through faith in baptism. The striving relates to the elements of sanctification listed above in the passage from Peter. We strive because we are commanded to strive. But this striving is not to attain justification, which is already ours, but to work out what is at work in us by grace. We run the race so that we can be united with the heavenly inheritance that is already held imperishable for us in heaven.

 There seems to be lot's of emphasis of co-operation between God and man through means of grace provided through the Catholic Church with the seven sacraments.

Do you think it is inappropriate for Catholics to cooperate with God’s grace?

1 Cor 3:7-9
8 The one who plants and the one who waters have a common purpose, and each will receive wages according to the labor of each. 9 For we are God’s servants, working together; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Synergistically.

When I post that meritorious works is done in Christ, I am implying it is work done from dispensed grace through faith and not of the flesh. Ultimately, the Catholic view of salvation means mankind determines his own fate by cooperating with God through the Catholic sacraments for strength and progress.

I am glad you cleared that up. It comes across as if you think they originated in human ability, rather than God’s grace. I don’t think your “ulitmate Catholic view” is entirely accurate. Catholics understand that salvation is available to those who are not Catholic, and who don’t have access to the sacraments, so “mankind” is a little broad for your assertion. Since we believe choice is part of what is loving, then yes, we believe that God allows us to choose whether we want to partake of HIs divine nature, or not.

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you

Salvation is of the Jews, and God gave the Jews choice.

God gives us the freedom to reject His purpose of salvation for ourselves. The ultimate fate, however, is His. It is He who gives eternal life, and He who separates those from Himself that do not wish to enter it.

 That does make the Catholic Church essential for the Catholic Christian since sacraments that strengthens flows from the Catholic Church.

I know it is difficult for Christians who have been separated from the Sacred Tradition to understand that Jesus and His Holy Bride are not separated. He is the Head of the Church, and we are members of Him, and of one another. Yes, His grace flows through the Church. As we have discussed, it is not limited to His Church, but it is a sure source of His grace, which He has provided for our sanctification.

Eph 3:8-13
8 Although I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given to me to bring to the Gentiles the news of the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make everyone see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 **so that through the church the wisdom of God in its rich variety might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. **11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose that he has carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have access to God in boldness and confidence through faith in him.

God’s plan was for HIs grace, mercy, wisdom and power be made known THROUGH THE CHURCH. So yes, we are graced to be grafted into His building, and to be joined to HIm as our Head. This is difficult for modern Protestants to understand, because they have been given a deficient understanding of what the Church is. Most modern evangelicals have been told that the Church is the “body of believers on earth”, which is not biblically true, and nor is it consistent with what the early church believed and taught.