Forensic Justification - what's your view about it?

[guanophore]

 For the Catholic sibling in comparison to Reformation theology, only the historic Reformed Christian can boast that salvation is all of God.

This is because Reformed Christians have a deficient understanding of salvation. Salvation from Christ is meant to transform the believer, and make him a partaker of the divine nature. This notion of salvation was rejected by the Reformers, who considered themselves snow covered dunghills. But the apostles taught that we have become the righteousness of God in Christ (not just declared, but actually).

The Catholic view allows the individual to boast in his part of salvation, …

If you see any Catholics boasting, let us know, and we will quickly correct them.

Rom 3:27-29

27 Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what law? By that of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.

Seriously, this is a very poor arguement. How can you forward a theological arguement based on someones bad behavior? At least make an arguement against something the Catholic Church actually believes and teaches. You will not find anywhere, in any Catholic document or authorative source that Catholics should or can boast about anything.

and the Catholic individual becomes sovereign over God which is a very difficult view to receive since we do not want to rob God of His glory for saving wretched sinners like me and you.

God is sovereign, and He created us with the ability to choose, then laid out the choice before us, as it states in the verse above from Deut. Since He is sovereign, He can set up salvation any way He wants. How did He decide to do it?

Eph 1:3-4

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love.

Not just “declared” holy and blameless, but actually holy and blameless before him in what? In LOVE. This is God’s love.

The Catholic also can never have assurance or confidence that you are a true child of God through adoption since your adoption is always conditional upon how you cooperate with God.

No, CU, this is not accurate. All the Scriptures in the NT on assurance were written by Catholics, for Catholics. We can, and do have confidence. And it is untru that our “adoption is conditional”. This is another thing you will NEVER find anywhere in Catholic Teaching. It is a lie that you have been told about what we believe. Our adoption is permanent, and cannot be undone.

you can be faithful your entire life, and commit a mortal sin near the end of your life and die without being restored to a state of grace.

Yes. As long as we are in the flesh, we have the choice to continue to partake of His divine nature, or to reject Him. Once we have completed the race of this life, we will have our reward.

Rom 2:5-11
5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: 7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

Would it be fair to say that you guys are conditional adopted children of God?

No, I do not think it is fair or just to bear false witness against your neighbor, and this is just a lie that you have been fed.

So now the question arises. Have you come here to tell us what we believe, or have you come here to honestly learn what we believe?

 

[Christian_Unity]

I agree.

So, let’s go through the Scripture and apply the test of which view is agrees with Scripture and which doesn’t.

Does Scripture say that we are justified by faith alone? Not to my view. If it did, it would contradict itself and that is impossible. Here is the most explicit text on the matter:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,** and not by faith only**.

Sincerely,

De Maria

If we go through the Scriptures together to determine truth, aren’t you playing the Protestant game in determining truth? If you decide to play the Scripture game with me, what happens if your belief does not line-up with official Catholic doctrine while we discuss and debate? Of course James chapter 2 is God breathed revelation which needs to be understood with all of Scripture.

 

[CopticChristian]

If we go through the Scriptures together to determine truth, aren’t you playing the Protestant game in determining truth? If you decide to play the Scripture game with me, what happens if your belief does not line-up with official Catholic doctrine while we discuss and debate? Of course James chapter 2 is God breathed revelation which needs to be understood with all of Scripture.

CU,

No, you don’t understand. Playing the Scripture game is not using anyone from your Bible study or invoking anything other than your understanding and seeing that you have learned to see things one way and others see it another. The game does not end in a draw, I must tell you.

 

[guanophore]

If we go through the Scriptures together to determine truth, aren't you playing the Protestant game in determining truth?

No, De Maria is used to debating with Protestants who reject Sacred Tradition, so has learned how to make his case using what Protestants will accept as true. He is not “determining Truth”, since that has already been done by the Church, but demonstrating to you where that Truth can be found in the Scriptures.

If you decide to play the Scripture game with me, what happens if your belief does not line-up with official Catholic doctrine while we discuss and debate?

Of course individual Catholics can depart from the One Faith, and be in error. However, in this case, I do not think you will need to concern yourelf abou that. De Maria is extremely well versed in his faith, and he will not depart from it. If he were to articulate something not consistent with the Church teaching, he would yield to the authority of the One Church, founded by Christ.

Of course James chapter 2 is God breathed revelation which needs to be understood with all of Scripture.

We are all in agreement on that point. Catholics believe saving faith is a faith that works.

Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; **the only thing that counts is faith working through love. **

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

No, you don’t understand. Playing the Scripture game is not using anyone from your Bible study or invoking anything other than your understanding and seeing that you have learned to see things one way and others see it another. The game does not end in a draw, I must tell you.

The Catholic version of truth is not determined by sola scriptura as we all know. You guys need to appeal to all written and oral sacred Catholic tradition which goes way beyond Scripture revelation. The Catholic Faith has authority that is based in Catholic apostolic succession and the Magestrium. Therefore, we have mutually exclusive forms of authority… which is the central cause of the Protestant Reformation. I do not believe that the Catholic Church in which Christ founded, but do receive Catholics as siblings as Christ. So, if you guys want to play the Protestant game of truth, we can on the subject of justification. It is a great exercise for all of us as we learn our differences. The Protesant view of the gospel and the doctrine of justfication is grounded with the entire book of Romans, Galtians, and Ephesians. We can start with Romans chapter 3 as a starter.

 

[De_Maria]

If we go through the Scriptures together to determine truth, aren’t you playing the Protestant game in determining truth?

The Bible is a Catholic book.

If you decide to play the Scripture game with me, what happens if your belief does not line-up with official Catholic doctrine while we discuss and debate?

My belief lines up with Catholic Teaching just fine.

Of course James chapter 2 is God breathed revelation which needs to be understood with all of Scripture.

Absolutely. I’m ready when you are.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Christian_Unity]

The Bible is a Catholic book.

My belief lines up with Catholic Teaching just fine.

Absolutely. I’m ready when you are.

Sincerely,

De Maria

LOL… the Holy Bible is God breathed revelation from above. Many of the authors used by God to pen his revelation were not even Catholic. Do you consider that the OT is a Catholic book? The Apostles were not called Catholics in the Bible.

 

[De_Maria]

The Catholic version of truth is not determined by sola scriptura as we all know.

But Protestant doctrine which contradicts Catholic doctrine also contradicts Scripture.

You guys need to appeal to all written and oral sacred Catholic tradition which goes way beyond Scripture revelation.

You are stalling.

The Catholic Faith has authority that is based in Catholic apostolic succession and the Magestrium.

And the Scriptures. We believe in Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium.

Scripture alone is a false doctrine which contradicts Scripture:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Therefore, we have mutually exclusive forms of authority…

You deny the authority of the Church. But Scripture teaches the authority of the Church. That is another contradiction which you have with Scripture:
Matthew 18:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

which is the central cause of the Protestant Reformation.

The central cause of the Protestant Revolution is the sinfulness of the Protestant Revolutionists.

I do not believe that Catholic Church in which Christ founded, but do receive Catholics as siblings as Christ.

It doesn’t matter what you believe, the truth is true whether you believe it or not. And the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ.

The Church described in Scripture is the Catholic Church.

First, Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

I see only a few Churches with such a Pastor. Further, Jesus Christ said that the Pastor over His Church would be infallible:

Matthew 16:17-19 (King James Version)
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.

Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.

Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.

By simple logic of elimination, that leaves only the Catholic Church.

So, if you guys want to play the Protestant game of truth, we can on the subject of justification.

You can play any games you want. But Protestant doctrine which contradicts Catholic teaching also contradicts the Scriptures.

It is a great exercise for all of us as we learn our differences.

Yes it is. And going through this exercise will highlight to you the errors which the Protestants teach.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

LOL… the Holy Bible is God breathed revelation from above.

Did God drop Bibles down from heaven? Is that what the Protestants taught you?

The Bible was written by Catholics.

Many of the authors used by God to pen his revelation were not even Catholic.

The writers of the New Testament were all Catholic.

Do you consider that the OT is a Catholic book?

Absolutely. The Catholic Church is the fulfilllment of the Old Testament.

The Apostles were not called Catholics in the Bible.

So what? They weren’t called Protestants either. And Catholics are called Christian in the Bible and throughout history because Catholics are the true Christians.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[CopticChristian]

The Catholic version of truth is not determined by sola scriptura as we all know. You guys need to appeal to all written and oral sacred Catholic tradition which goes way beyond Scripture revelation. The Catholic Faith has authority that is based in Catholic apostolic succession and the Magestrium. Therefore, we have mutually exclusive forms of authority… which is the central cause of the Protestant Reformation. I do not believe that the Catholic Church in which Christ founded, but do receive Catholics as siblings as Christ. So, if you guys want to play the Protestant game of truth, we can on the subject of justification. It is a great exercise for all of us as we learn our differences. The Protesant view of the gospel and the doctrine of justfication is grounded with the entire book of Romans, Galtians, and Ephesians. We can start with Romans chapter 3 as a starter.

CU,

I love the book of Romans, I like starting with Chapter 1…because here Paul says this…

1Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Here Paul tells you why he is writing…to discuss Obedient Faith…and then he says this…

7to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

  8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. 9For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you, 10always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you. **11For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established; 12that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other’s faith, both yours and mine. **13I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that often I have planned to come to you (and have been prevented so far) so that I may obtain some fruit among you also, even as among the rest of the Gentiles.

These are all Saints, all of the same Faith and he wants to impart a spiritual gift.,…to non-believers…no to believers…so if you plan on showing me or anyone else how the book of Romans explains how to get saved…think a bit again…

so go on…

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic version of truth is not determined by sola scriptura as we all know.

The Truth (it is not a “catholic version”) was once for all deposited to the Church. Catholics call this the divine deposit of faith. It consists of two equal strands of Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

You guys need to appeal to all written and oral sacred Catholic tradition which goes way beyond Scripture revelation.

We don’t “need” to do any such thing. How do you get to define the rules of debate? We can limit ourselves to scriptures right along with you.

We do read the Scriptures in the light of the Sacred Tradition, but it is not “way beyond” as you have been taught to believe. The Holy Scriptures were never intended to be a complete compendium of the faith. The faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. It was passed orally and accurately for decades. This Sacred Tradition, the Word of God alive and well in the Church, is infallibly protected by the Holy Spirit. It complements the Scriptures.

1 Thess 2:13-14

13 We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers.

The Sacred Tradition passed to the Church from teh Apostles is not a human Word, but God’s word. I think you will agree with us that God watches over His Word.

Isa 55:10-11
or as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
and do not return there until they have watered the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

The purpose of God’s Word is for the salvation of His elect, and it will continue to succeed in this task until the end of the age.

Catholics are obedient to the Apostolic instructions 2 Thess 2:15
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

The Apostles taught that the word of God in writing, and by word of mouth are equal in dignity and authority.

The Catholic Faith has authority that is based in Catholic apostolic succession and the Magestrium.

The authority is based in Jesus Christ. He it was who chose Peter, and gave him the keys to the kingdom. To the Church has been passed the Seat of Moses (authority to teach and discipline).

Therefore, we have mutually exclusive forms of authority… which is the central cause of the Protestant Reformation.

This is another false statement, just as your assertion that our concepts of justification are mutually exclusive. In fact the CC authored, preserved, promulgated and canonized the Scriptures and considers them authorative in matters of faith and morals.

So, if you guys want to play the Protestant game of truth, we can on the subject of justification. It is a great exercise for all of us as we learn our differences. The Protesant view of the gospel and the doctrine of justfication is grounded with the entire book of Romans, Galtians, and Ephesians. We can start with Romans chapter 3 as a starter.

Ok, but your previous comment about the post De Maria made from James is true. These verses must be taken together as a whole. I realize that Reformed Christians find their doctrines on salvation primarily in these books, but Catholics do not exclude the rest of the Scriptures when examining doctrine.

Let us play on!

 

[guanophore]

LOL… the Holy Bible is God breathed revelation from above.

Indeed it is.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

The men moved by the HS to write the books of the NT were Catholic men, who had Catholic faith. That is why there is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic.

Many of the authors used by God to pen his revelation were not even Catholic. Do you consider that the OT is a Catholic book? The Apostles were not called Catholics in the Bible.

We received the Septuagint from the Jews, and it was bound together in 382 AD with the 27 books of the NT to create the moder Bible. Catholics did that.

You are right, there is only one reference in the NT to the Church as catholic, but the term was in popular use within 50 years as a way to identify the One Church founded by Christ.

 

[CopticChristian]

The Catholic version of truth is not determined by sola scriptura as we all know. You guys need to appeal to all written and oral sacred Catholic tradition which goes way beyond Scripture revelation. The Catholic Faith has authority that is based in Catholic apostolic succession and the Magestrium. Therefore, we have mutually exclusive forms of authority… which is the central cause of the Protestant Reformation. I do not believe that the Catholic Church in which Christ founded, but do receive Catholics as siblings as Christ. So, if you guys want to play the Protestant game of truth, we can on the subject of justification. It is a great exercise for all of us as we learn our differences. The Protesant view of the gospel and the doctrine of justfication is grounded with the entire book of Romans, Galtians, and Ephesians. We can start with Romans chapter 3 as a starter.

CU,

Now before you go jumping into Romans 3 there has to be agreement that Paul is quoting the OT…quite a bit and making it mean things that had not been heard before as seen here.

biblewheel.com/wheel/CitationsInRomans.asp

and this has been discussed by this authore as well…

amazon.com/Echoes-Scripture-Letters-Paul-Richard/dp/0300054297

Now when you start with Romans 3…see here…

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

Notice how he links being a Jew and being circumcised together and notice how he says…
“first of all”…now when I read this…“first of all”…I wanted to look for…

second, or next…but it never appears…until you see this…Romans 11…

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

all that stuff from Romans 3-11 is directed to the Judaizing Christian that are trying to invoke circumcision as part of being a Christian…and everything in Romans 3 and following is correcting this error…

Now what is it you want to say about Romans 3?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Did God drop Bibles down from heaven? Is that what the Protestants taught you?

The Bible was written by Catholics.

The writers of the New Testament were all Catholic.

Absolutely. The Catholic Church is the fulfilllment of the Old Testament.

So what? They weren’t called Protestants either. And Catholics are called Christian in the Bible and throughout history because Catholics are the true Christians.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The OT writers were Jews and not Catholics. Therefore, I have no idea how you are calling the Bible a Catholic book. If anything, the Bible is a Jewish and Christian book as one cannon. In the Bible, the believers were called Christians and not Catholics. Most of the Apostles were Jews and not Catholics. I don’t believe you can support the belief that the Catholic Church is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. The Old Testament partially revealed in foreshadows and types of Jesus Christ and his gospel instead of the Catholic Church. I believe the Old Testament Saints and New Testament Saints together makeup a single people of God which we can call the body of Christ. Our hope is found in Christ alone and not the Catholic Church or any other Christian denomination. The converted believers in the Catholic Church makeup part of the universal body of Christ consisting of redeemed sinners that belong to many different Christian churches. We are drifting from the thread topic; I’m just responding to your postings right now. Sometimes our beliefs are just plain silly. You are saying that Catholics are the true Christians. So what are the Orthodox and Protestant Christians who also makeup part of the body of Christ alongside with converted Catholics, false Christians?

Acts 11:26

…and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I’m not sure who proposed to discussed the OP through Scripture alone. I don’t mind doing this if we stick to the Scriptures while we try it. That means you cannot start quoting the CCC as if is authorities to Protestant Christians. If you guys want to try to do what was proposed by a Catholic sibling, let’s try it together. We should look at this as more of a discussion for Christian unity instead of a defense for our particular Christian Church or denominational distinctive. If we want to discuss the issue of justification by sola scriptura, I will use the book of Romans and the book of Galatians as my focus. Please start posting your Scripture support for your Catholic understanding of justification. We should try hard not to proof text, but use Scripture references in their proper context. Let’s try to discuss without fighting too.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m not sure who proposed to discussed the OP through Scripture alone. I don’t mind doing this if we stick to the Scriptures while we try it. That means you cannot start quoting the CCC as if is authorities to Protestant Christians. If you guys want to try to do what was proposed by a Catholic sibling, let’s try it together. **We should look at this as more of a discussion for Christian unity instead of a defense for our particular Christian Church or denominational distinctive. ** If we want to discuss the issue of justification by sola scriptura, I will use the book of Romans and the book of Galatians as my focus. Please start posting your Scripture support for your Catholic understanding of justification. Let’s try to discuss without fighting.

CU,

No problem. Protestants are wrong. You cannot unite when someone is wrong. You can unite in truth.

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

No problem. Protestants are wrong. You cannot unite when someone is wrong. You can unite in truth.

You can have your opinion my friend, but this is a Forum site open for discussions within Forum rules. Are you familar with the documents called “Evangelicals and Catholics Together 1” and Evangelcials and Catholics Together 2" written in 1994 and 1996? Are you opposed to that work by both Catholics and Evangelicals for the cause of Christ? Are you familar with the Joint Declaration on Justification by Catholics and Lutherans too? We can push unity to a certain point for the cause of Christ. Catholics and Protestant will never completely agree over the issues of justification and authority, but we can unite.

 

[CopticChristian]

You can have your opinion my friend, but this is a Forum site open for discussions within Forum rules. Are you familar with the documents called “Evangelicals and Catholics Together 1” and Evangelcials and Catholics Together 2" written in 1994 and 1996? Are you opposed to that work by both Catholics and Evangelicals for the cause of Christ? Are you familar with the Joint Declaration on Justification by Catholics and Lutherans too? We can push unity to a certain point for the cause of Christ. Catholics and Protestant will never completely agree over the issues of justification and authority, but we can unite.

CU,

Then if you know of the Joint Declaration and you believe in agreement you can save lots of time by agreeing that we agree on certain points and then go from there. Do you agree with that declaration?

 

[KathleenGee]

The Calvinists pulled away from the Lutherans because they thought they were getting out of hand, and wanted a more strict understanding of faith. Calvin even condemned the Liturgy of the Hours as superstition…

Calvin had great faith in Christ’s divinity, but as such think labelling Catholic structured prayers of the psalms as superstitious, for example, appears to not have faith in Christ’s humanity or very lacking to say the least that Christ moves through people, sinners.

The more one falls into understanding of Christ as God…and along with Christ judging us with the power to forgive or condemn us to hell, this inclination takes away from Christ in His full humanity, Who chose men, the apostles, to be the carnate foundation of His Church, and to their successors.

Subsequently, we are Ecclesial Deists. Our faith in Christ is big enough to see Him as also True Man. It is Jesus Christ Who reconciled us back to God…and also back to our own humanity. We can drink wine, we can structure our prayer form, we can adopt the Mass to fit into different cultures but still retain its proper function.

Christ was big enough to place His working authority in Peter…what Peter binds or breaks, is bound or broken in heaven, sins are forgiven or they are not forgiven. Peter has this authority. And the apostles and their successors the bishops have Christ’s authority to found churches and to ordain new clergy, and pass on the transmission of faith, and the power through the Holy Spirit, to change ordinary bread and wine, in proper form, into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, this in effect since the Last Supper.

Protestants are very limited in doctrine and there is no authority. Each one prays and discerns what fits him. And it is at the point now that here in the USA there are 40,000 sects unable to come together in the Lord. This movement contradicts the will of Christ Who prayed we would be one. And this idea of no authority except the Bible alone…in text form, makes it vulnerable to all sorts of interpretation, and this concept, along with denying any actual Christ founded authority in His Church, has shattered any Christian political block in this country. Christianity is the biggest voting block in this country but the most divisive.

Division and dissension are not fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Dissension is equated on the same level even with witchcraft! Look at its fruits, and how the mind is constantly questioning and challenging Christ’s authority and the shattered faith it results in us, as well as the loss of the Eucharist that brings us eternal life, promised by Christ Himself.

In spiritual discipline, it is said that for spiritual progress, we must first renounce our will. If we operate and pick and choose what we want to believe in that feels comfortable for us, we will always be stuck in being the operator, instead of walking in greater spiritual advancement, one step after another.

If one is following only one’s will and one’s personal interpretation of Christ, one will never find peace and the certainty of faith.

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

Then if you know of the Joint Declaration and you believe in agreement you can save lots of time by agreeing that we agree on certain points and then go from there. Do you agree with that declaration?

First of all, the Joint Declaration on justification between Catholics and Lutherans is not binding to both Catholics and Lutherans alike. As you know, there are many different Protestant circles that don’t believe like Lutherans. There are both Catholics and Lutherans who are against the Joint Declaration, unwilling to give up theological ground for their exclusive position. So, we should first decide what is the purpose and limitation of the Joint Declaration on Justification. I personally see it as being something we are attempting here… moving forward to unity as compared to seperation. We need honest discussion as compared to staunch defense of the faith from our circles to move forward. You can give me all of the Catholic apologetics response which really causes seperation as comparision to a step toward unity. Remember, the Vatican encourages discussion and dialog with separated brethrens. So, let’s please discuss with Christian charity and love.