Forensic Justification - what's your view about it?

[Christian_Unity]

The position that De Maria seems to take here also appears to be incompatible with the Teaching of the Catholic Church.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the** Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church**."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Thank you… I hope to continue our discussion as siblings in Christ when time permits.

 

[onemangang]

Thank you for your post. I was baptized as an infant in the Trinitarian formula in a traditional Protestant denominational church. I was also baptized as a professing adult in the Trinitarian formula too at Calvary Chapel. We may disagree of which church is the purest, or who belongs to a true church, yet we are still siblings in Christ since there is one body of Christ.

I see you mentioned your infant baptism at a “Traditional Protestant Denomination”, could you name the denomination?

You also said you we rebaptized at a Calvary Chapel, I understand the form and matter, but what was the intent of the Calvary Chapel baptism?

Three things are required for a baptism to be valid!

1. Matter
2. Form
3. Intent

 

[KathleenGee]

The rite of Baptism is permanent and you cannot wash it off.

So there is no need to get re baptized.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I see you mentioned your infant baptism at a “Traditional Protestant Denomination”, could you name the denomination?

You also said you we rebaptized at a Calvary Chapel, I understand the form and matter, but what was the intent of the Calvary Chapel baptism?

Three things are required for a baptism to be valid!

1. Matter
2. Form
3. Intent

Thanks for asking. I’m looking at my Certificate of Baptism right now and it has the Triune formula on it. The church was Ygloria Memorial Church in Olau, Hawaii. I Googled it and think it was a Congregational Church. That denomination has Reformed roots.

Calvary Chapel calls itself non-denominational, but they believe in believer’s baptism like your typical Baptist churches on this issue. I’m sure many Catholics were baptized several times too when they left their family Catholic faith, and later at a Protestant church were re-baptized in believer’s baptism.

There are quite a few of Protestant churches which baptize their infants such as Presbyterian and Lutheran. When Protestant churches baptize their infants, the meaning and intent vary, depending on that particular denomination. I don’t know off hand what Congregationalist theology believes in regards to infant baptism. On the certificate, there is a picture on it that indicates that I could have been submerged as an infant, but I could have also been sprinkled.

 

[Christian_Unity]

The rite of Baptism is permanent and you cannot wash it off.

So there is no need to get re baptized.

It’s just theology. The original Baptist after the Reformation were called anti-baptist and were persecuted for their views on rebaptism. Many Catholics and Protestants have been baptised twice, onces as an infant and later as a believer since many Catholic do leave the Catholic Church and go to Protestant circles. Some return to the Catholic Church experiencing both infant baptism and beleiver’s baptism.

 

[onemangang]

It’s just theology. The original Baptist after the Reformation were called anti-baptist and were persecuted for their views on rebaptism. Many Catholics and Protestants have been baptised twice, onces as an infant and later as a believer since many Catholic do leave the Catholic Church and go to Protestant circles. Some return to the Catholic Church experiencing both infant baptism and beleiver’s baptism.

Many Catholics that leave the Catholic Church for some non-catholic community do so due to being under catechised and unlearned in the faith. They end up then being indoctrinated with “theology” that may practice “believers baptism” or “just theology” that denies the Trinity in one form or another!

Catholics get baptized once, anything after that, they are just ending up all wet

That story includes me, right down to the Calvary Chapel part

 

[Christian_Unity]

Many Catholics that leave the Catholic Church for some non-catholic community do so due to being under catechised and unlearned in the faith. They end up then being indoctrinated with “theology” that may practice “believers baptism” or “just theology” that denies the Trinity in one form or another!

Catholics get baptized once, anything after that, they are just ending up all wet

That story includes me, right down to the Calvary Chapel part

Yep, that’s interesting and fun. You see, we have much more Christian unity than most like to believe; Catholic becoming Protestants, and Protestants becoming Catholics, or Protestants becoming Orthodox, and back around again tells me that we all know in part, yet there is only one true universal body of Christ made up of believers from various Christian denominations, branches, and circles.

For example, if a Protestant was baptised in a Triune Protestant church and becomes Catholic, then the Catholic Church acknowledges the Protestant baptism and does not rebaptise the new Catholic convert, correct? In contrast, if a Mormon was baptized in a Mormon Church and converts to the Catholic Faith, I’m sure the Catholic Church does not recognize the baptism done in the Mormon Church, thus that Mormon convert gets baptized as a Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

It’s just theology. The original Baptist after the Reformation were called anti-baptist and were persecuted for their views on rebaptism. Many Catholics and Protestants have been baptised twice, onces as an infant and later as a believer since many Catholic do leave the Catholic Church and go to Protestant circles. Some return to the Catholic Church experiencing both infant baptism and beleiver’s baptism.

I think you are meaning Anabaptist, which means “again baptized”. Those who were baptized “again” during the Reformation and after believed that the first one didn’t really “count” since they had not made a profession of faith. They were also contaminated by sola scriptura, and could not see infant baptism in the NT, so rejected it.

I was baptized again too when I wandered away from the Catholic faith. I fell into that error of "believers baptism. I did not find out until much later that it is not biblical, and is not part of what the Apostles believed and taught. I am one of those that returned to the faith in which I was baptized as an infant.

 

[onemangang]

Yep, that’s interesting and fun. You see, we have much more Christian unity than most like to believe; Catholic becoming Protestants, and Protestants becoming Catholics, or Protestants becoming Orthodox, and back around again tells me that we all know in part, yet there is only one true universal body of Christ made up of believers from various Christian denominations, branches, and circles.

For example, if a Protestant was baptised in a Triune Protestant church and becomes Catholic, then the Catholic Church acknowledges the Protestant baptism and does not rebaptise the new Catholic convert, correct? In contrast, if a Mormon was baptized in a Mormon Church and converts to the Catholic Faith, I’m sure the Catholic Church does not recognize the baptism done in the Mormon Church, thus that Mormon convert gets baptized as a Catholic.

I was raised Catholic, became agnostic, had a life changing moment that made me a believer, I then attended a Calvary Chapel, due to one of my very dedicated Christian friend recommending Calvary Chapel, I later reverted to my Catholic faith. My Calvary Chapel pastor was very anti-catholic, so all the messages ended up being more about how Catholics are wrong, (or JW’s being that his wife was an ex-JW) This forum was instrumental in my conversion to the Catholic faith, and Justification was one of those topics!

I feel that the only way unity is possible is through a hunger for the Truth, big T. I feel that there will have to be a deepening of understanding of the question Who is Christ Jesus, and what did He do? I am of the belief that we can not have a true unity, without conversion to the Catholic faith, we may be able to agree on certain things with certain doctrines, but fundamentally there will be separation on the big question Who is Christ Jesus, and what did he do?

So, when I as a Catholic pray for unity among Christians, it is for conversion, because I am foolish enough to believe, it can happen

 

[SteveVH]

I was raised Catholic, became agnostic, had a life changing moment that made me a believer, I then attended a Calvary Chapel, due to one of my very dedicated Christian friend recommending Calvary Chapel, I later reverted to my Catholic faith. My Calvary Chapel pastor was very anti-catholic, so all the messages ended up being more about how Catholics are wrong, (or JW’s being that his wife was an ex-JW) This forum was instrumental in my conversion to the Catholic faith, and Justification was one of those topics!

I feel that the only way unity is possible is through a hunger for the Truth, big T. I feel that there will have to be a deepening of understanding of the question Who is Christ Jesus, and what did He do? I am of the belief that we can not have a true unity, without conversion to the Catholic faith, we may be able to agree on certain things with certain doctrines, but fundamentally there will be separation on the big question Who is Christ Jesus, and what did he do?

So, when I as a Catholic pray for unity among Christians, it is for conversion, because I am foolish enough to believe, it can happen

And, since we already know the end of the story, your belief would be correct.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I was raised Catholic, became agnostic, had a life changing moment that made me a believer, I then attended a Calvary Chapel, due to one of my very dedicated Christian friend recommending Calvary Chapel, I later reverted to my Catholic faith. My Calvary Chapel pastor was very anti-catholic, so all the messages ended up being more about how Catholics are wrong, (or JW’s being that his wife was an ex-JW) This forum was instrumental in my conversion to the Catholic faith, and Justification was one of those topics!

I feel that the only way unity is possible is through a hunger for the Truth, big T. I feel that there will have to be a deepening of understanding of the question Who is Christ Jesus, and what did He do? I am of the belief that we can not have a true unity, without conversion to the Catholic faith, we may be able to agree on certain things with certain doctrines, but fundamentally there will be separation on the big question Who is Christ Jesus, and what did he do?

So, when I as a Catholic pray for unity among Christians, it is for conversion, because I am foolish enough to believe, it can happen

Because the Catholic Church already recognizes a Protestant Triune baptism, a Protestant is already converted and united to Christ by faith regardless if he lives out his life as a Catholic or a Protestant. Our union with Christ by faith is everything. You are either united to Adam or united to Jesus Christ; there is no middle ground. Being Catholic does not make you more united to Jesus Christ. If you don’t agree, how does becoming Catholic from being Protestant change your vital union with Jesus Christ? Conversion has to do from being born from above, or moving from the kingdom of darkness (in Adam) to the kingdom of light (in Christ) by the Spirit of God.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I think you are meaning Anabaptist, which means “again baptized”. Those who were baptized “again” during the Reformation and after believed that the first one didn’t really “count” since they had not made a profession of faith. They were also contaminated by sola scriptura, and could not see infant baptism in the NT, so rejected it.

I was baptized again too when I wandered away from the Catholic faith. I fell into that error of "believers baptism. I did not find out until much later that it is not biblical, and is not part of what the Apostles believed and taught. I am one of those that returned to the faith in which I was baptized as an infant.

I told you that many of us who were baptized as infants were baptized again as a believer. It’s not a an exclusive tension among Catholics who left and return, this is the same issue when Protestant were baptized as infants in a Protestant Church who ends up in a Baptist or non-denominational church later in life as a believer. BTW… I do believe in infant baptism, but don’t share a belief in baptismal regeneration.

 

[SteveVH]

Our union with Christ by faith is everything.

And this union is most fully realized in the Eucharist.

Being Catholic does not make you more united to Jesus Christ.

It does if we have the only valid Eucharist (and I obviously include the eastern Church in these remarks).

…how does becoming Catholic from being Protestant change your vital union with Jesus Christ?

The sacraments; the channels of grace instituted by Christ himself and administered through his Church.

 

[Christian_Unity]

And this union is most fully realized in the Eucharist.

It does if we have the only valid Eucharist (and I obviously include the eastern Church in these remarks).

The sacraments; the channels of grace instituted by Christ himself and administered through his Church.

I anticipated that you would come back with the Eucharist and Catholic sacraments. Since the Catholic Church receives Protestant Triune baptism, and the Catholic Church believes in baptism regeneration, then I would say that Catholic theology would conclude that we Protestants are born from above per baptism, and are united to Christ… without receiving the Eucharist or exclusive Catholic sacraments. Do you agree? We cannot be your separated brethren without already being in the body of Christ (united to Christ by faith). The Catholic Church does not limit the channel of grace to Catholic sacraments. We Protestants have our own means of grace too which flows from the person and work of Christ on our behalf.

 

[JonNC]

=De Maria;10039845]Yes.

An honest answer.

Good answer. Keep studying Scripture and you will be Catholic. Compare your beliefs to Scripture and you will find that the Protestants are passing down error which contradicts the Word of God.

I believe that Lutheran beliefs, found in the Augsburg Confession, are consistent with the historic teachings of the Church.

Then where does the word, “sola” come in?

Sola means “alone”. So if you’re not using Scripture as your sole basis of deciding what is the faith of Jesus Christ, why is it called “sola” scripture?

Good question. The “sola” refers to the use of scriputre as the sole final norm. It does not refer to an exclusion of Tradition, but only requires that Tradition not contradict with scripture.

Is “final” equivalent to “sola”?

No exactly. Sola is a descriptive of final. Catholics would say that sacred scripture and sacred Tradition are equal. We would say that Tradition is important, and even critical, but accountable to scripture. That’s why I said Lutherans accept the 7 early councils, and the 3 ancient creeds. They rightly reflect the teaching of scripture and represent the authority of the Church to set doctrine.

Can you provide any examples from Scripture?

An example from scripture that sola scriptura is a post-apostolic era practice?

First, you would need to provide me a definition I can compare to your understanding, so that I can see if I agree with you.

A definition of what?

Second, and so I can compare to Scripture, to see if I agree that Scripture teaches such a thing.

Teaches such a thing about what?

The Church is still here and still infallible. I’m not sure what you mean there.

Orthodoxy? Or Rome?

Is the truth dependent upon the agreement of certain people? Or does the truth stand on its own?

In a way, yes. It was “certain people” who met and wrote the creeds, who sat in the Council of Nicea, for example, and wrote canon 6.

In my opinion, that statement is a non-sequitur. The fact that many have split from the true Church of Christ is no fault of the Church nor of Christ. It is the fault of those who rejected the Truth.

What evidence do you have, from scripture or the early councils, that Rome and Rome exclusively is the true Church of Christ? Why should I believe that one patriarch on its own holds more authority than the others who have maintained communion with each other?

Jon

 

[onemangang]

Because the Catholic Church already recognizes a Protestant Triune baptism, a Protestant is already converted and united to Christ by faith regardless if he lives out his life as a Catholic or a Protestant. Our union with Christ by faith is everything. You are either united to Adam or united to Jesus Christ; there is no middle ground. Being Catholic does not make you more united to Jesus Christ. If you don’t agree, how does becoming Catholic from being Protestant change your vital union with Jesus Christ? Conversion has to do from being born from above, or moving from the kingdom of darkness (in Adam) to the kingdom of light (in Christ) by the Spirit of God.

Ah, good question! Being Catholic unites me to Christ more fully in the aspect of being faithfull to Him, by His intent, He gave us a Visable Church in through which He would guide us, so I am not confused on direction, being that the Christ provides us with a living voice in order to be on track and not wonder, He also gives us Himself through the Eucharist to sanctify our soul to unite us to Himself, for starters, not only myself, but my fellow Catholics have cohesion and direction, without ambiguity, which makes it possible to address a non believing world, united as One as Christ intended, so when the Church proclaims “Behold the Lamb of God” it is unambiguous, it simply IS!

Non-catholic Christianity looks more like a form of social constructivism, where truth is subject to the faith community, rather than the person of Jesus as His unction is spoken through the One Holy Catholic and Appostolic Church. So, outside the Catholic faith, there is a incomplete epistomology, lacking the ability to assert truth, when there is not COMPLETE unity in divine guidence on faith and morals!

I do not want to derail this thread, being its about Justification, but how does one seek unity without an absolute position on Who is Christ and what did He do? Personally, I can’t see a tenable Christianity outside of being Catholic, or Orthodox, all others seem to lack a complete epistemology and seem like social constructivism to me, if it were not for the Church, I would be a deist, believing in a Creator, who created Natural Law and conscienceness as guide, but towards what, would be merely pondering the depths of self!

 

[SteveVH]

I anticipated that you would come back with the Eucharist and Catholic sacraments. Since the Catholic Church receives Protestant Triune baptism, and the Catholic Church believes in baptism regeneration, then I would say that Catholic theology would conclude that we Protestants are born from above per baptism, and are united to Christ… without receiving the Eucharist or exclusive Catholic sacraments. Do you agree?

Yes, with qualifications. By your baptism you entered into Christ’s Church. But Christ did not only institute the sacrament of Baptism. The other sacraments are necessary, to varying degrees. One does not have to be married. One does not have to receive Holy Orders. But one does need to eat the body of Christ and drink his blood or they will have no life in them. One does need to be forgiven for sins committed after Baptism. If the sacraments were not necesssary, Christ would not have instituted them.

We cannot be your separated brethren without already being in the body of Christ (united to Christ by faith). The Catholic Church does not limit the channel of grace to Catholic sacraments. We Protestants have our own means of grace too which flows from the person and work of Christ on our behalf.

You are exactly right and I would never deny that Protestants receive grace from God. You are part of God’s family but you have run away to make your own life. God still loves you and cares for you and pours his grace out upon you but you are eating off the streets rather than at his table. You are eating scraps when he has prepared a feast. As would any good father, He wants all of his family around his table.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Ah, good question! Being Catholic unites me to Christ more fully in the aspect of being faithfull to Him, by His intent, He gave us a Visable Church in through which He would guide us, so I am not confused on direction, being that the Christ provides us with a living voice in order to be on track and not wonder, He also gives us Himself through the Eucharist to sanctify our soul to unite us to Himself, for starters, not only myself, but my fellow Catholics have cohesion and direction, without ambiguity, which makes it possible to address a non believing world, united as One as Christ intended, so when the Church proclaims “Behold the Lamb of God” it is unambiguous, it simply IS!

Non-catholic Christianity looks more like a form of social constructivism, where truth is subject to the faith community, rather than the person of Jesus as His unction is spoken through the One Holy Catholic and Appostolic Church. So, outside the Catholic faith, there is a incomplete epistomology, lacking the ability to assert truth, when there is not COMPLETE unity in divine guidence on faith and morals!

I do not want to derail this thread, being its about Justification, but how does one seek unity without an absolute position on Who is Christ and what did He do? Personally, I can’t see a tenable Christianity outside of being Catholic, or Orthodox, all others seem to lack a complete epistemology and seem like social constructivism to me, if it were not for the Church, I would be a deist, believing in a Creator, who created Natural Law and conscienceness as guide, but towards what, would be merely pondering the depths of self!

I guess I was asking for that. I did open the door for more Catholic apologetics common responses. Catholic Answers is a laymen’s apologetics training ground, but canned answers are just that… From my view, you are either united to Christ or united to Adam. Union is union… without a middle ground since nobody arrives at complete transformation on this side of glory. We all know in part including the Catholic Church who refers to mysteries all the time.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Yes, with qualifications. By your baptism you entered into Christ’s Church. But Christ did not only institute the sacrament of Baptism. The other sacraments are necessary, to varying degrees. One does not have to be married. One does not have to receive Holy Orders. But one does need to eat the body of Christ and drink his blood or they will have no life in them. One does need to be forgiven for sins committed after Baptism. If the sacraments were not necesssary, Christ would not have instituted them.

You are exactly right and I would never deny that Protestants receive grace from God. You are part of God’s family but you have run away to make your own life. God still loves you and cares for you and pours his grace out upon you but you are eating off the streets rather than at his table. You are eating scraps when he has prepared a feast. As would any good father, He wants all of his family around his table.

Are you implying Protestants who have been baptized but do not partake in the Eucharist have no life in them? How can on one hand believe that Protestants are born from above (baptismal regenation) and on the other hand say we have no life in us? Are you saying when Protestants partake in communion, that we receive no grace? Are you saying since we do not have the sacrament of confession through Catholic Priests that we are not fogiven when we confess our sins directly to God when will approach the throne of grace through Christ alone?

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by De Maria
Protestants are followers of Luther.

Goodness no. And there are those who roundly condemn us. They reject infant baptism, and baptismal regeneration, confession/HolyAbsolution, and the real presence, to name but a few things.

=guanophore;10040146]I don’t think this is an accurate statement. Even the Lutherans dont’ actually follow Luther as much as the confessions that were developed by others. And certainly Christian Unity does not as she has made it clear that she comes from a different theological position that is as antithetical to Luther as it is to Catholics in some ways.

This is correct. There are numerous things Luther said that Lutherans reject. His writings that appear in the Confessions - Small and Large Catechisms, Smalkald Articles - are clearly received by us.

Christian Unity and I have already explored some of our differences.

Jon