C
Christian_Unity
Guest
Protestants believe in baptism too.
- Status
D
De_Maria
Guest
I wonder how you know? If the officers of the Church had not doubt, why do you?
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
See 1 Cor 1 as the requirment to understand the Scriptures. If the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer, and if a Catholic is no longer in a state of grace based on mortal sin, etc… then does the Holy Spirit leave the Catholic believer during that time of not being in a state of grace?
J
jmcrae
Guest
I believe that the power of the Holy Spirit becomes “deactivated” in a sense. My personal experience is that when I go to Confession, everything just makes way more sense, afterwards, than it did before.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
About apostolic succession…the seat of Peter can be traced all the way back to Peter.
Consider St. Ignatius of Antioch who said that without the bishops, presbyters, and deacons there is no church. These are of the sacrament of Holy Orders, representatives of the One High Jesus Christ, in the order of Melchizedek that centers on Christ as Perpetual Sacrifice.
Through His ministers, we receive the sacraments, the anointing and filling of Jesus Christ through sanctifying grace.
We have wheat, we have chaff, and Christ said we would have to endure both side by side…the nature of life as it is, with no perfection on this earth until we are in heaven.
All human life is holy, is sacred – be they unbaptized babies or sinful men, – in that God created us in the image of Him, He gave us reason and free will, and given us our immortal soul.
And yes, entire households were baptized by Peter, head of the Church…so what he binds so does heaven because Peter and the apostles were church builders.
You have to look at the continuation of faith documented in our universal catechism, whose teachings have not changed since the beginning, you look at councils and decrees – in context of the times and cultures they addressed – but always providing us the fruit of communion.
Our faith is one, holy, apostolic, universal…giving it transcendency…meaning, there is always this common line of faith we are drawn to.
When you ask if the Word of God brings us the Holy Spirit…why,…Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Logos…the Word Made Flesh…although this latter is the working of the flesh of God into ordinary bread and wine to become our spiritual nourishment we receive bodily…so the Word becomes Flesh in us when we hear the Word at Liturgy and then receive the Eucharist in its liturgy at communion.
Our focus is not text and I think alot of good protestants exclude yourselves to the Word alone, and are not privvy to living out one’s faith in the Church where we have our focus, our sense of context on various points of faith.
Protestants look to the Word of God and follow Him…Catholics look to Christ in His living and present Personhood to us with the Word of God.
Yes, Protestants have the sacrament of Baptism and are our separated brethren, but they are devoid of the great wisdom and guidance the Church brings along with the sacraments, and you do not have canonized saints as witnesses to living out the Catholic faith…or with that…the Liturgical Year and all its seasons and feasts that embellish our faith…
Unfortunately today the secular culture is so powerful one is over busy, and I myself cannot make it to celebrate the Liturgical Year as I have in the past, and hope this time where I am having to work extra, will soon be done.
So you are missing alot not being in full communion of the Church, you are not assured of the binding of faith that Peter brings to the Church, the consistent history of thought, the saints, the celebration of faith, but most of all, the Eucharist.
Consider St. Ignatius of Antioch who said that without the bishops, presbyters, and deacons there is no church. These are of the sacrament of Holy Orders, representatives of the One High Jesus Christ, in the order of Melchizedek that centers on Christ as Perpetual Sacrifice.
Through His ministers, we receive the sacraments, the anointing and filling of Jesus Christ through sanctifying grace.
We have wheat, we have chaff, and Christ said we would have to endure both side by side…the nature of life as it is, with no perfection on this earth until we are in heaven.
All human life is holy, is sacred – be they unbaptized babies or sinful men, – in that God created us in the image of Him, He gave us reason and free will, and given us our immortal soul.
And yes, entire households were baptized by Peter, head of the Church…so what he binds so does heaven because Peter and the apostles were church builders.
You have to look at the continuation of faith documented in our universal catechism, whose teachings have not changed since the beginning, you look at councils and decrees – in context of the times and cultures they addressed – but always providing us the fruit of communion.
Our faith is one, holy, apostolic, universal…giving it transcendency…meaning, there is always this common line of faith we are drawn to.
When you ask if the Word of God brings us the Holy Spirit…why,…Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Logos…the Word Made Flesh…although this latter is the working of the flesh of God into ordinary bread and wine to become our spiritual nourishment we receive bodily…so the Word becomes Flesh in us when we hear the Word at Liturgy and then receive the Eucharist in its liturgy at communion.
Our focus is not text and I think alot of good protestants exclude yourselves to the Word alone, and are not privvy to living out one’s faith in the Church where we have our focus, our sense of context on various points of faith.
Protestants look to the Word of God and follow Him…Catholics look to Christ in His living and present Personhood to us with the Word of God.
Yes, Protestants have the sacrament of Baptism and are our separated brethren, but they are devoid of the great wisdom and guidance the Church brings along with the sacraments, and you do not have canonized saints as witnesses to living out the Catholic faith…or with that…the Liturgical Year and all its seasons and feasts that embellish our faith…
Unfortunately today the secular culture is so powerful one is over busy, and I myself cannot make it to celebrate the Liturgical Year as I have in the past, and hope this time where I am having to work extra, will soon be done.
So you are missing alot not being in full communion of the Church, you are not assured of the binding of faith that Peter brings to the Church, the consistent history of thought, the saints, the celebration of faith, but most of all, the Eucharist.
D
De_Maria
Guest
That is what “mortal” sin means. The soul has died. The Holy Spirit has left. The Spirit does not return until the person repents and confesses his sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.
D
De_Maria
Guest
I have no idea what that means.
Protestants have human assurance. You can keep it.
Catholics have hope in God.
1 Corinthians 4:2-4
King James Version (KJV)
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Romans 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Sincerely,
De Maria
CU,
Maybe I missed it, but woud you please identify what communion/denomination you belong to, preferrably in your profile? In all honesty, when you claim “we protestants”, I feel the need to know this.
Jon
CU,
A question based on this approach that you’ve mentioned more than once. When Jesus says, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
He is speaking to His disciples. Is He talking about Baptism by human hands, and if so, is this different than Baptism by the Spirit?
Jon
D
De_Maria
Guest
Sanctifying grace regenerates. You mean you consider it a means of ordinary grace.
That doesn’t make it false. It just means that it is hard to understand.
No. His faith makes him pleasing to God. And he is united to God by that faith. But faith does not regenerate. God regenerates those who by faith in His Son, submit to the Sacrament of Baptism.
Yes. He must produce works meet for repentance:
Acts 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
The Catholic Church is Christendom. The Catholic Church is God’s Kingdom on earth.
It is Protestant doctrine which makes no biblical sense.
Sincerely,
De Maria
S
SteveVH
Guest
Yes, I have probably spoken too broadly but it is hardly a secret what Baptists, for instance, believe about baptism and therefore I don’t think I am too far off in making the point I am making. As I have stated, I always defer to the Church in matters faith, I am just trying to understand and will be having this discussion with my priest tomorrow. As far as doubt is concerned, I have no doubt that the Church is correct in its judgment and the fact that I don’t understand how they arrive there is of no consequence. It certainly doesn’t make me doubt my Church, if that’s what you mean.
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
God the Holy Spirit is the thrid person of the Holy Trinity with same sovereign attributes of God the Father. Therefore, I don’t think we can deactivate the Spirit of God. I guess that goes into a deeper discussion and debate regarding the ministry of the Holy Spirit in whom He is trying to save.
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
I think the Spirit baptizes the elect to Christ at the point of when the Spirit opens the heart of the individual elect, enabling the sinner to spirituality see Christ as being desirable, so that the elect freely comes to Christ upon hearing the gospel proclaimed. I believe water baptism done by the hands of men through the sacrament of baptism represents what the Spirit does apart from and before the sacrament of baptism. I am interested to hear if Lutherans believe in adult baptismal regeneration since Luther coined justification by faith alone. I’m okay with infant baptismal regeneration in which Luther believed after leaving the Catholic Church. It is true that believers are to be baptized as an act of obdience… which the sacrament is a means of sanctifying grace.
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
That’s a good one and makes perfect sense since with have two mutually exclusive claims of apostolic succession.Interestingly, some Orthodox rebaptize Catholics, from what I’ve heard
Jon
S
SteveVH
Guest
God never forces himself upon us. If we choose to not follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit he certainly allows us to do that. In effect we do deactivate the Spirit of God by refusing his grace and God allows it because we are free, rational beings.
C
Christian_Unity
Guest
Now, that’s an unbiblical view… we can start a new thread on that one. I side with Augustine on this debate of the sovereignity of God. Please start with Romans 9 and Ephesian 1, and John 1 and John 6 … and then maybe we should start a thread on predestination and free will. Augustine is the man who crushed Pelagius!
D
De_Maria
Guest
By what authority have you pronounced them all valid?
When will you produce the document that you claim says the Church has set aside “intention” in the Baptisms of some particular group or for anyone at all?
Sincerely,
De Maria
D
De_Maria
Guest
The unbiblical view is the idea that God forces people to do His will.
As do we. The Catholic doctrine is Augustinian.
The Catholic Church crushed Pelagius with the help of St. Augustine.
Rather than being as vague as you on the verses which support the free will. I will provide one verse to begin which goes directly to the point.
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Whom ye yield yourselves to obey. Obviously, we choose whom to obey. Satan unto death. God unto righteousness.
All I need is this one verse. The Bible does not contradict itself. But I have more.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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