Forensic Justification - what's your view about it?

[PRmerger]

LOL… good one! Yet if it glorifies God to finish the work that He started, the leak would be plugged by God for the reason of God’s glory and our good.

This appears to be an un-biblical tradition you are espousing?

Where do the Scriptures say that we are “plugged by God” so that the Holy Spirit leaks not from us?

 

[JonNC]

Here you go Jon… in regards to Martin Luther:

presenttruthmag.com/archive/III/3-4.htm

Agreed. And by what tools, provided by christ, can this happen? Word and Sacrament!!!

Jon

 

[Christian_Unity]

Agreed. And by what tools, provided by christ, can this happen? Word and Sacrament!!!

Jon

Yep, very contradictory theology by Luther. Do you have something which shows that Luther believed in adult baptismal regeneration? I thought he only believed in infant baptismal regeneration which makes more sense. I’ve seen Lutheran statement of faith websites and they are very similar to Reformed Churches on the essentials. Maybe you are mistaken in regards to Martin Luther’s view on adult baptismal regeneration, but maybe I’m incorrect.

 

[PRmerger]

How about this one?

“In the imputation of Adam’s sin to us, of our sins to Christ, and of Christ’s righteousness to believers, the nature of imputation is the same, so that one case illustrates the other” (Hodge: Systematic Theology, 2:194).

CS Lewis who was very Catholic friendly described imputation as “the great exchange”; my sins exchanged for His righteousness. Here is the Bible verse too in regards to imputation and a forensic justification:

I don’t have a problem with this paradigm, provided that we understand that God can only see truth.

He does not “pretend” to see us as saints when we are actually sinners.

That would be contrary to his nature, no?

What God sees is what we are. If we are clothed in righteousness, he sees us as clothed in righteousness. If we embrace sin, then God sees our sin.

He cannot do otherwise. :nope:

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

Amen!

 

[onemangang]

Luther and Calvin may have disagreed regarding the sacraments. However, I do beileve they both embraced a forensic justification. How can Luther be credited for the coined phraise of “justification by faith alone is the article in which the church stands and falls” and not embrace a forensic justifcation?

Scripture, when it treats of justification by faith, leads us in a very different direction. Turning away our view from our own works, it bids us look only to the mercy of God and the perfection of Christ. The order of justification which it sets before us is this: first, God of his mere gratuitous goodness is pleased to embrace the sinner, in whom he sees nothing that can move him to mercy but wretchedness, because he sees him altogether naked and destitute of good works. He, therefore, seeks the cause of kindness in himself, that thus he may affect the sinner by a sense of his goodness, and induce him, in distrust of his own works, to cast himself entirely upon his mercy for salvation. This is the meaning of faith by which the sinner comes into the possession of salvation, when, according to the doctrine of the Gospel, he perceives that he is reconciled by God; when, by the intercession of Christ, he obtains the pardon of his sins, and is justified; and, though renewed by the Spirit of God, considers that, instead of leaning on his own works, he must look solely to the righteousness which is treasured up for him in Christ.

John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion (3.11.16)

Hey the same John Calvin also wrote

“So then we must ever come to this point, that the Sacraments are effectual and that they are not trifling signs that vanish away in the air, but that the truth is always matched with them, because God who is faithful shows that he has not ordained anything in vain.*And that is the reason why in Baptism we truly receive the forgiveness of sins, we are washed and cleansed with the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, we are renewed by the operation of his Holy Spirit.
And how so? Does a little water have such power when it is cast upon the head of a child? No. But because it is the will of our Lord Jesus Christ that the water should be a visible sign of his blood and of the Holy Spirit.*Therefore baptism has that power and whatsoever is there set forth to the eye is forthwith accomplished in very deed.”
**
[John Calvin, Sermons on Deuteronomy, p. 1244.] **

This article is on the grace of justification, it may shed light on this subject!

saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html

 

[Christian_Unity]

I don’t have a problem with this paradigm, provided that we understand that God can only see truth.

He does not “pretend” to see us as saints when we are actually sinners.

That would be contrary to his nature, no?

What God sees is what we are. If we are clothed in righteousness, he sees us as clothed in righteousness. If we embrace sin, then God sees our sin.

He cannot do otherwise. :nope:

Amen!

If our relationship with God is dependent on our personal holiness and sinlessness, then we would all still be children of the darkness, and would not qualify as adopted children of God. That is the very reason God became man, so we can be reconciled to God and adopted into his family of the basis of the person and work of Christ on our behalf. How does the Apostle Paul describe himself during his lifetime on personal holiness? What we are really discussing is the sufficiency of Jesus Christ on our behalf. We are united to Christ, so He sees us in Christ. Our vital union with Christ is everything! Check out these verses:

Romans 5

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[KathleenGee]

Onemangang,

What you have shown here on this recent post is the problem with Protestants and not understanding that we as Catholics who look to Sacred Scripture and our faith in Christ in context of the whole…Christ Who is Logos.

It is an ongoing situation where we are continually witnessing concepts taken out of context of belief.

When it comes to the Catholic faith, about what happened in specific times and conditions, it is always about context…and Sacred Scripture…taken out of context of its whole…because it is about people, not about specific, individualized statements of text, phrases that are taken out and used to make a sect or another division in the Body of Christ. Again, the Word of God is Christ Himself.

Thanks for your excerpt from Calvin. The rite of baptism must use water, just as Jesus did. He came to the River Jordan to begin His ministry here on earth. Likewise by having St. John the Baptist baptize Him, He was showing us right then and there that He would minister to us through not only His Word but also His sacraments…and that He would be the minister of the sacrament using chosen followers to be His representatives – the priesthood.

St. John the Baptist prepared the way for the Lord. But the Lord, because He is God, could have prepared His own way. Yet He did not.

So the Lord instead had a sinner baptize Him and thus initiate His earthly ministry as well as be instrumental in the great theophany where the Heavenly Father affirms His Son of Whom He is well pleased, as well as the Holy Spirit coming in the form of a dove Who appeared over Christ with the voice of Our Heavenly Father.

We are Ecclesial Deists. We believe Christ was God enough to chose mortal men through whom to administer His Church and sacraments and sacred worship in the Liturgy.

By believing in context of the whole of Scripture where each part connects to the other, we retain its integrity that Christ came to people in His Person, and not in written text. Doing so He became Man to connect with us, to restore us to Him…and into communion, and by participating in His Church, we are blessed with communion…

 

[PRmerger]

If our relationship with God is dependent on our personal holiness and sinlessness, then we would all still be children of the darkness, and would not qualify as adopted children of God.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise, CU.

If our relationship with God is dependent upon our personal holiness and sinlessness, then, when we are holy and sinless, our relationship with God thrives.

That conclusion follow, no?

 

[Christian_Unity]

Hey the same John Calvin also wrote

“So then we must ever come to this point, that the Sacraments are effectual and that they are not trifling signs that vanish away in the air, but that the truth is always matched with them, because God who is faithful shows that he has not ordained anything in vain.*And that is the reason why in Baptism we truly receive the forgiveness of sins, we are washed and cleansed with the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, we are renewed by the operation of his Holy Spirit.
And how so? Does a little water have such power when it is cast upon the head of a child? No. But because it is the will of our Lord Jesus Christ that the water should be a visible sign of his blood and of the Holy Spirit.*Therefore baptism has that power and whatsoever is there set forth to the eye is forthwith accomplished in very deed.”
**
[John Calvin, Sermons on Deuteronomy, p. 1244.] **

This article is on the grace of justification, it may shed light on this subject!

saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html

Reformed Christians as well as other Protestants (Lutheran, Anglicans, etc) do believe that the sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace. Baptist and non-denominational Christians reject that view. The issue here and the thread topic is about a forensic justification. It would help to understand that historic Protestantism separates justification from the process of sanctification. Catholics don’t make such a distinction; therefore, we are going to run into definition issues and talk beyond each other.

 

[KathleenGee]

Separating…that is the essence of Protestantism. Too much scrupulosity when the true faith is already present and nurturing in profession of faith at the Mass. The Catholic faith was still being taught prior to the Protestant Reformation, which as also part of the movement of nationalism in Germany, England, and other northern countries of Europe.

The Reformation addressed abuses, but consequently the cause of a loss of fervor of faith as well. There were parish movements in Germany that focused on great sanctification led by pastors and their congregations, but did not make an much effect, because true reform in the Church must always come from its ecclesiastics.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise, CU.

If our relationship with God is dependent upon our personal holiness and sinlessness, then, when we are holy and sinless, our relationship with God thrives.

That conclusion follow, no?

We are going to confuse each other. Remember, Luther said that the doctrine of justification by faith alone is the article in which the church stands or fall. The thread topic of a forensic justification and imputation is really about what Luther and the others Reformers believed on the vital issue of justification (being right with God). We need to go back and understand that Protestants make a big separation between justification and sanctification (personal holiness). Catholic theology does not make such a separation and distinction. It helps to understand our mutually exclusive positions on these issues regarding salvation. There is much common ground, but what separate Protestants from Catholics are two main issues: authority and our views on justification.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Separating…that is the essence of Protestantism. Too much scrupulosity when the true faith is already present and nurturing in profession of faith at the Mass. The Catholic faith was still being taught prior to the Protestant Reformation, which as also part of the movement of nationalism in Germany, England, and other northern countries of Europe.

The Reformation addressed abuses, but consequently the cause of a loss of fervor of faith as well. There were parish movements in Germany that focused on great sanctification led by pastors and their congregations, but did not make an much effect, because true reform in the Church must always come from its ecclesiastics.

Thanks for sharing that, but if we go back to the thread topic of a forensic justification, we can start understanding why the church split from a Protestant perspective, and why Evangelical leaders unite together seperate and apart from Catholic siblings in the 21st century. There is a reason why the Pope made an ecumencial statement that “Luther was right in faith alone” (read in context).

“Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love.” - The Pope

catholicworldreport.com/Blog/939/the_pope_martin_luther_and_our_time.aspx

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=556136

 

[guanophore]

Luther and Calvin may have disagreed regarding the sacraments.  However, I do beileve they both embraced a forensic justification. How can Luther be credited for the coined phraise of "justification by faith alone is the article in which the church stands and falls" and not embrace a forensic justifcation?

There is much of the Apostolic Faith that Luther retained. One of those Sacred Tradtitions was that faith that saves is a faith that works.

He also did not separate the remainder of the Scriptures in understanding soteriology, so he did not fall into the error of OSAS. Instead, he recognized the Apostles teaching that we are to work out our salvation by fear and trembling, hoping in Christ, the author and finisher of our faith.

Scripture, when it treats of justification by faith, leads us in a very different direction. Turning away our view from our own works, it bids us look only to the mercy of God and the perfection of Christ.

This departs from Apostolic faith in two ways. The first is Calvin’s defiinition of justification by faith. Catholics include Apostolic writing and the Gospels in understanding the meaning of this term. As James says “we are not justified by faith alone”. This does not mean that we are justified BY our works, but neither is saving faith “alone”. It is always accompanied by the fruits that befit repentance.

We also do not look “only” to what God does, but to our response to His work of grace in us. Calvin separates this into sanctification, whereas, Catholics do not separate justification from sanctification. We believe that the grace that justifies is also the grace that sanctifies.

The order of justification which it sets before us is this: first, God of his mere gratuitous goodness is pleased to embrace the sinner, in whom he sees nothing that can move him to mercy but wretchedness, because he sees him altogether naked and destitute of good works.

This statement is based upon Calvin’s concept of “total depravity”, a concept contradicted by Scripture, and not believed or taught by the Apostles.

He, therefore, seeks the cause of kindness in himself, that thus he may affect the sinner by a sense of his goodness, and induce him, in distrust of his own works, to cast himself entirely upon his mercy for salvation. This is the meaning of faith by which the sinner comes into the possession of salvation, when, according to the doctrine of the Gospel, he perceives that he is reconciled by God; when, by the intercession of Christ, he obtains the pardon of his sins, and is justified; and, though renewed by the Spirit of God, considers that, instead of leaning on his own works, he must look solely to the righteousness which is treasured up for him in Christ. John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion (3.11.16)

I don’t see anything in this section that contradicts Catholic faith. Perhaps someone else can?

 

[onemangang]

Reformed Christians as well as other Protestants (Lutheran, Anglicans, etc) do believe that the sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace. Baptist and non-denominational Christians reject that view. The issue here and the thread topic is about a forensic justification. It would help to understand that historic Protestantism separates justification from the process of sanctification. Catholics don’t make such a distinction; therefore, we are going to run into definition issues and talk beyond each other.

Both say by grace through faith, how do we define faith?

Is faith part of justification?

**
Definition of faith
"the act of the intellect assentingtoaDivinetruthowingtothe movement of the will, which is itself moved by the grace of God
**

Maybe this is why justification and sanctification are not separate !

 

[guanophore]

from Monergism.com:

“Our sins, when laid upon Christ, were yet personally ours, not his; so his righteousness, when put upon us, is yet personally his, not ours.” - John Bunyan

“The gospel is saying that, what man cannot do in order to be accepted with God, this God himself has done for us in the person of Jesus Christ. To be acceptable to God we must present to God a life of perfect and unceasing obedience to his will. The gospel declares that Jesus has done this for us. For God to be righteous he must deal with our sin. This also he has done for us in Jesus. The holy law of God was lived out perfectly for us by Christ, and its penalty was paid perfectly for us by Christ. The living and dying of Christ for us, and this alone is the basis of our acceptance with God.”

• Graeme Goldsworthy, Gospel and Kingdom, p. 86

“In the imputation of Adam’s sin to us, of our sins to Christ, and of Christ’s righteousness to believers, the nature of imputation is the same, so that one case illustrates the other” (Hodge: Systematic Theology, 2:194).

“Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.”. (Rom 5:15-18)

Paul is making the point that if Adam’s disobedience to the law of God was the reason for death, then Jesus full obedience to all the prescriptions of the divine law unto death is what brings us righteouness.

I don’t see any concepts here that are not Catholic. I think what may differ is how we understand “imputed righteousness”. The Apostles taught that Chirst righteousness is actually imparted to us, within us (not just "declared) so that we then become partakers of the divine nature. We are not the righteousness of God in Christ only because He has declared it, but because He has accomplished it.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Both say by grace through faith, how do we define faith?

Is faith part of justification?

**
Definition of faith
"the act of the intellect assentingtoaDivinetruthowingtothe movement of the will, which is itself moved by the grace of God
**

Maybe this is why justification and sanctification are not separate !

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Many people mistakenly believe that we are saved by faith. That is incorrect. The Demons believe or have faith and shutter (James 2). We are saved by grace through the instrument of faith. Grace is free for us, but it was merited by Christ by His perfect life and subsitutional death. So grace is earned by another, but we want to access this grace. Consider electricity as being symbolic for grace. Now consider the conduit or wires as faith. Electricity (grace) flows through conduit or wires (faith). Unless you turn on the light switch, the wires have no power in themselves.

 

[guanophore]

LOL… good one! Yet if it glorifies God to finish the work that He started, the leak would be plugged by God for the reason of God’s glory and our good. Salvation of sinners if first and foremost, for God’s glory and His name sake. We are only secondary beneficaries to such a glorious act of kindness, mercy, and grace… for the praise of His glorious grace (Ephesians 1).

Indeed He does finish that which He has begun in us. Yet it pleased Him to be glorified IN His saints, and IN His Church. There is no separation between His glory, and what He wants to do for those who are His.

How about this one?

“In the imputation of Adam’s sin to us, of our sins to Christ, and of Christ’s righteousness to believers, the nature of imputation is the same, so that one case illustrates the other” (Hodge: Systematic Theology, 2:194).

CS Lewis who was very Catholic friendly described imputation as “the great exchange”; my sins exchanged for His righteousness. Here is the Bible verse too in regards to imputation and a forensic justification:

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

I think where some go astray is an inadequate understanding of the Trinity. I have heard pastors say that Jesus, in the moment our sins were imputed to Him, and he “became sin” was abhorrent to the Father, and that is why the Father turned His back on the son, and the Son cried out “why have you forsaken me”:

Jesus became sin, and bore our sins to the cross in a mystical manner that we cannot understand, because God Himself cannot “become” sin in the way we might think. Neither was His death substitutionary, in the sense that He paid the penalty we owed. If that were the case, he would be in Hell for eternity. No, He took our penalty and cancelled the bond against us, but how that happens remains a mystery.

 

[onemangang]

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Many people mistakenly believe that we are saved by faith. That is incorrect. The Demons believe or have faith and shutter (James 2). We are saved by grace through the instrument of faith. Grace is free for us, but it was merited by Christ by His perfect life and subsitutional death. So grace is earned by another, but we want to access this grace. Consider electricity as being symbolic for grace. Now consider the conduit or wires as faith. Electricity (grace) flows through conduit or wires (faith). Unless you turn on the light switch, the wires have no power in themselves.

Catholics believe that faith is a gift of grace so we do not believe we are “saved by faith” but by grace through faith!

 

[KathleenGee]

As I said prior, when the Catholic Church said that Luther was right, well, the Church was already teaching we are saved by grace in Jesus Christ…and the Catholic saints were teaching this hundreds of years prior to Luther.

My class on ecumenism was presented by a bishop who none other, was a bishop on the Council of Ecumenism. He made it very clear this whole situation was due to Luther’s scrupulosity who was not focused on the teachings of the Church and those of the saints and their lives, but focused on his own unworthiness. Luther was in his own sense of isolation, and not practically living in the fullness of faith. And albeit, it must have been very difficult for devout Catholics as well to witness such abuses.

But nevertheless, many devout Catholics persevered and were not wiped out by the wave of Protestantism, we witnessing this in Germany and the Catholics in England. Very sad.

The Church was taking the stand of alot of humility to help reaffirm the just points Luther made, but he likewise went off the deep end after he left, stating a number of things, the divisions becoming so great within nationalism, that the military got involved, many people died, and it is a tragedy.

So I don’t understand why anyone would want to follow one man or another to join a new church. Yes, the name of this umbrella was the Evangelical Church vs the universal Catholic Church. And various protestants were reacting to extremes coming out of this that were considered embarrassing, and they were already into trying to find churches in which to join that didn’t have imbalanced ideas.

Even Luther himself reflected that the Protestants were not following the Gospel as well as the Catholics, the Calvinists were so out of touch of Christ’s humanity, they considered the Liturgy of the Hours…essentially psalms and readings from the Old Testament with writings from the New Testament epistles and Early Church Fathers combined with prayers for the Church as superstition.

Wounds of division in the Christianity are opposite of what Christ prayed for on our behalf that we would be one. We cannot pick lines and passage out of Scripture based on our way of thinking to make another sect. It further divides us from each other, and this preoccupation must certainly take us farther from Christ Who provided us His sacraments, His shepherding, His teaching through the Church when we face ongoing challenges from our societies around us.

I thought in the past where would I go if I left the Church…and I see no place that can properly teach me, help me deal with the world around me and its contradictions, nor can any other nurture me in the physical presence of Christ Himself…the Eucharist does not lead me to split or protest or follow my own will, but instead to go out after Mass with much life but to simply pray and serve others around me and to bring His joy into the world.

My kids grew up never hearing anything spoken in Church or gatherings against Protestants…never.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Let’s try to go back to the thread topic of a forensic justification. Also, I started a predestinaton free will thread in which I think should challenge all of us too.