Forensic Justification - what's your view about it?

[onemangang]

From saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html

Faith Hope and Charity prior to Baptism.

One might ask that if faith, hope and charity are theological virtues imputed by grace, how could a person be moved to conversion to Christianity or experience faith, hope and charity prior to Baptism**. It should be emphasized that the Holy Spirit leads a person to Christianity through an act of actual grace**. In addition, faith, hope and charity can exist in the natural state of man prior to baptism. However, the motive for natural charity is often misplaced. Works of natural goodness found among the unbelieving person is often for love of mankind rather than God. **Natural faith can aspire and lead one to God through the work of the Spirit, but baptism is needed to bring sanctifying grace to the soul to purify it and impute supernatural faith, hope and charity. **The Catechism notes that “the faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop…For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. (CCC 1253).”

Peace and Love in Christ!

 

[SteveVH]

I agree with you 100% Steve. I see De Maria’s point that the intent of Protestant baptism is often not what the Catholic Church does, and that many evangelicals deny the power of God working through the sacrament, and it does not make sense to me that they would be accepted for those reasons, I will defer the the Church, and pray for better understanding.

Thank you. I don’t think I have ever tried to state such a simple premise with such a confusing outcome.

 

[Christian_Unity]

From saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html

Faith Hope and Charity prior to Baptism.

One might ask that if faith, hope and charity are theological virtues imputed by grace, how could a person be moved to conversion to Christianity or experience faith, hope and charity prior to Baptism**. It should be emphasized that the Holy Spirit leads a person to Christianity through an act of actual grace**. In addition, faith, hope and charity can exist in the natural state of man prior to baptism. However, the motive for natural charity is often misplaced. Works of natural goodness found among the unbelieving person is often for love of mankind rather than God. **Natural faith can aspire and lead one to God through the work of the Spirit, but baptism is needed to bring sanctifying grace to the soul to purify it and impute supernatural faith, hope and charity. **The Catechism notes that “the faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop…For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. (CCC 1253).”

Peace and Love in Christ!

I don’t believe most Protestant are opposed to the sacrament of baptism. All Christians should immediately partake in the sacrament of baptism for an act of obedience and for sanctifying grace. It is interesting that the CCC mentioned that baptism brings sanctifying grace…which I believe too as a Protestant. It seems a Protestant view of sanctifying grace meets the intent of the CCC in regards to baptism.

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t believe most Protestant are opposed to the sacrament of baptism. All Christians should immediately partake in the sacrament of baptism for an act of obedience and for sanctifying grace. It is interesting that the CCC mentioned that baptism brings sanctifying grace…which I believe too as a Protestant. It seems a Protestant view of sanctifying grace meets the intent of the CCC in regards to baptism.

Which Protestants? Baptist, Fundamentalist, Evangelical? None of them believe in sanctifying grace. If there is one thing I have learned on this forum it is not to use the word Protestant when speaking about a particular belief or docitrine as if it applies across the board, because it doesn’t.

If, however, one does bellieve in sanctifying grace and baptismal regeneration then yes, I would say they have the correct intent. But then again, I don’t speak for the Church.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Which Protestants? Baptist, Fundamentalist, Evangelical? None of them believe in sanctifying grace. If there is one thing I have learned on this forum it is not to use the word Protestant when speaking about a particular belief or docitrine as if it applies across the board, because it doesn’t.

If, however, one does bellieve in sanctifying grace and baptismal regeneration then yes, I would say they have the correct intent. But then again, I don’t speak for the Church.

Yep, I know. I distance myself from Fundamentalism and independent Baptist theology. The conservative Fundamentalist right wing political agenda is a movement that I opposed strongly. As a Reformed Christians, you can verify with the Reformed confessionals that we believe the sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace. I would guess that Lutheran, Anglican, and Methodist would be other Protestant denominations who would say that the sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace. We have a new light in regards to the CCC; it seems we are in agreement that baptism is a means of sanctifying grace… boy I worried about the intent clause. There is no where in that CCC reference about baptism is for justifying grace; it only mentions sanctifying grace.

One might ask that if faith, hope and charity are theological virtues imputed by grace, how could a person be moved to conversion to Christianity or experience faith, hope and charity prior to Baptism. It should be emphasized that the Holy Spirit leads a person to Christianity through an act of actual grace. In addition, faith, hope and charity can exist in the natural state of man prior to baptism. However, the motive for natural charity is often misplaced. Works of natural goodness found among the unbelieving person is often for love of mankind rather than God. Natural faith can aspire and lead one to God through the work of the Spirit, but baptism is needed to bring sanctifying grace to the soul to purify it and impute supernatural faith, hope and charity. The Catechism notes that “the faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop…For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. (CCC 1253).”

 

[SteveVH]

Yep, I know. I distance myself from Fundamentalism and independent Baptist theology. The conservative Fundamentalist right wing political agenda is a movement that I opposed strongly. As a Reformed Christians, you can verify with the Reformed confessionals that we believe the sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace. I would guess that Lutheran, Anglican, and Methodist would be other Protestant denominations who would say that the sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace. We have a new light in regards to the CCC; it seems we are in agreement that baptism is a means of sanctifying grace… boy I worried about the intent clause. There is no where in that CCC reference about baptism is for justifying grace; it only mentions sanctifying grace.

One might ask that if faith, hope and charity are theological virtues imputed by grace, how could a person be moved to conversion to Christianity or experience faith, hope and charity prior to Baptism. It should be emphasized that the Holy Spirit leads a person to Christianity through an act of actual grace. In addition, faith, hope and charity can exist in the natural state of man prior to baptism. However, the motive for natural charity is often misplaced. Works of natural goodness found among the unbelieving person is often for love of mankind rather than God. Natural faith can aspire and lead one to God through the work of the Spirit, but baptism is needed to bring sanctifying grace to the soul to purify it and impute supernatural faith, hope and charity. The Catechism notes that “the faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop…For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. (CCC 1253).”

 

[SteveVH]

Yep, I know. I distance myself from Fundamentalism and independent Baptist theology. The conservative Fundamentalist right wing political agenda is a movement that I opposed strongly. As a Reformed Christians, you can verify with the Reformed confessionals that we believe the sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace. I would guess that Lutheran, Anglican, and Methodist would be other Protestant denominations who would say that the sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace. We have a new light in regards to the CCC; it seems we are in agreement that baptism is a means of sanctifying grace… boy I worried about the intent clause.

One might ask that if faith, hope and charity are theological virtues imputed by grace, how could a person be moved to conversion to Christianity or experience faith, hope and charity prior to Baptism. It should be emphasized that the Holy Spirit leads a person to Christianity through an act of actual grace.

Or however the Holy Spirit chooses to lead. God continually draws all people to himself. He has provided the normal means of receiving grace and that is through the sacraments. But he loves all and desires all to be saved. God can do whatever God wishes to do in the redemption of souls and we should place no limitations on his ability or desire to save souls.

In addition, faith, hope and charity can exist in the natural state of man prior to baptism. However, the motive for natural charity is often misplaced. Works of natural goodness found among the unbelieving person is often for love of mankind rather than God. Natural faith can aspire and lead one to God through the work of the Spirit, but baptism is needed to bring sanctifying grace to the soul to purify it and impute supernatural faith, hope and charity. The Catechism notes that “the faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop…For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. (CCC 1253).”

 

[Christian_Unity]

Or however the Holy Spirit chooses to lead. God continually draws all people to himself. He has provided the normal means of receiving grace and that is through the sacraments. But he loves all and desires all to be saved. God can do whatever God wishes to do in the redemption of souls and we should place no limitations on his ability or desire to save souls.

Agreed on the point that God desires all people to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:3-5

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[JonNC]

Yep, very contradictory theology by Luther. Do you have something which shows that Luther believed in adult baptismal regeneration? I thought he only believed in infant baptismal regeneration which makes more sense. I’ve seen Lutheran statement of faith websites and they are very similar to Reformed Churches on the essentials. Maybe you are mistaken in regards to Martin Luther’s view on adult baptismal regeneration, but maybe I’m incorrect.

Only contradictory if one doesn’t understand the Lutheran concept of sacrament and justification.

Jon

 

[Christian_Unity]

Only contradictory if one doesn’t understand the Lutheran concept of sacrament and justification.

Jon

I’m not Lutheran bro; therefore, help me understand the concept of sacrament and justification according to Luther. I still need to understand if Lutherans or Luther believed in adult baptismal regeneration. Can you clarify that question on adult baptismal regeneration first?

 

[SteveVH]

I’m not Lutheran bro; therefore, help me understand the concept of sacrament and justification according to Luther. I still need to understand if Lutherans or Luther believed in adult baptismal regeneration. Can you clarify that question on adult baptismal regeneration first?

I’m confused. What does either being an infant or being an adult have to with with whether or not Baptism is regenerational? It cleanses our souls from the stain of sin and we are infused with supernatural life. The only difference between an adult and an infant would be the cleansing of actual sin as well as original sin in the case of an adult.

 

[JonNC]

Reformed Christians as well as other Protestants (Lutheran, Anglicans, etc) do believe that the sacraments are a means of sanctifying grace. Baptist and non-denominational Christians reject that view. The issue here and the thread topic is about a forensic justification. It would help to understand that historic Protestantism separates justification from the process of sanctification. Catholics don’t make such a distinction; therefore, we are going to run into definition issues and talk beyond each other.

Back to the link I provided in post #15.
Even though we distinguish justification and sanctification, we never separate them. Justification is salvation; sanctification is salvation. When we look at salvation from the perspective of what we deserve and what we have earned or can earn, all we can see is the Saviour and what He has done. That is justification by faith alone. When we look at salvation from the perspective of how we live on the basis of what He has done, we see that it is our joy and privilege to be (by grace) fellow-workers with God and participants in the arduous, awesome, but ultimately joyous process of being conformed to His image. That is sanctification; that is living by faith. In the end, it is all one: justification is sanctification is salvation. Salvation is accomplished by His all-sufficient sacrifice, and worked out in our lives with our cooperation with grace, by grace.

Jon

 

[Christian_Unity]

I’m confused. What does either being an infant or being an adult have to with with whether or not Baptism is regenerational? It cleanses our souls from the stain of sin and we are infused with supernatural life. The only difference between an adult and an infant would be the cleansing of actual sin as well as original sin in the case of an adult.

Remember, Protestant theology makes a distinction between positional justification (forensic) and sanctification (personal holiness). When is the adult Catholic considered born from above, when hearing and receiving the gospel by faith, or when the adult believer partakes in the sacrament of baptism?

 

[JonNC]

I’m not Lutheran bro; therefore, help me understand the concept of sacrament and justification according to Luther. I still need to understand if Lutherans or Luther believed in adult baptismal regeneration. Can you clarify that question on adult baptismal regeneration first?

Baptism is baptism. There isn’t one thing that happens to an infant, and another to an adult. From The Augsburg Confession:

Article IX: Of Baptism.

1] Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary 2] to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God’s grace.

"…through Baptism is offered the grace of God." That applies to anyone wh is baptized, regardless of age.

**"… and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God’s grace." ** This says that it also applies to infants and children.

Jon

 

[jmcrae]

Remember, Protestant theology makes a distinction between positional justification (forensic) and sanctification (personal holiness).

I don’t think that anyone can speak for the whole of Protestantism, since there are differences in understanding between the various Protestant groups. However, I take it that this is the understanding of the particular group of Protestants that you regularly fellowship with.

When is the adult Catholic considered born from above, when hearing and receiving the gospel by faith, or when the adult believer partakes in the sacrament of baptism?

The adult non-Christian convert to the Catholic faith is (typically) “born from above” at the Easter Vigil when he has completed spiritual, emotional, and intellectual preparation for the Sacraments (possibly two years or longer); when he has heard a recounting of the history of Salvation through a number of readings, psalms, and hymns, has had the Gospel proclaimed to him, and has received Baptism, Confirmation, and First Holy Communion.

The central action is Baptism, but all of these other things - the two years of preparation, the seven readings from the Old Testament, the Psalm and hymn responses, the Gospel proclamation, the homily, and his subsequent Confirmation and First Holy Communion, all contribute to the rebirth of his soul in the newness of Christ.

We hope and assume that the new covert will take up the lifestyle of an actively practicing Catholic - that he will obey the Commandments of God and the precepts of the Church, and live according to the specific laws that govern his state of life. (Single, married, old, young, male, female, etc.)

 

[guanophore]

Here you go Jon… in regards to Martin Luther: A forensic justification and imputation is what Luther believed.

presenttruthmag.com/archive/III/3-4.htm

gracesermons.com/robbeeee/imputed.html

I think this sentence in that second link above sums it up nicely:
Sproul:

We can reduce its meaning to the concept of legal declaration.

This is essentially what has happened in the Reformed tradition. What the apostles believed and taught as One Faith, has been sliced, diced and “reduced” so that much of it has been lost.

Of course the NT is a Catholic book, and since it contains the concept of the legal declaration, this idea is certainly contained in the Apostolic faith. But “reducing” the concept of justification by faith to this one concept is like settling for the Reader’s Digest portion of the gospel. IT is not wrong, it is just incomplete.

The Apostles’ taught that we are declared righteous because we are united to Christ in His death and resurrection through baptism, which washes us clean, and allows us to stand before God with a clean conscience.

 

[guanophore]

This appears to be an un-biblical tradition you are espousing?

Where do the Scriptures say that we are “plugged by God” so that the Holy Spirit leaks not from us?

Thanks for joining the thread PR.

To be fair, you won’t be able to find the idea that “we leak” in Scripture either, though it certainly does seem to describe our daily struggle.

 

[PRmerger]

Thanks for joining the thread PR.

To be fair, you won’t be able to find the idea that “we leak” in Scripture either, though it certainly does seem to describe our daily struggle.

No, not in Scripture, but it’s definitely part of the faith, given once for all, to the saints. Otherwise, what we would have, if we were indeed “sealed” without any leakage, is the beatified walking around our planet.

One look at our newspapers tells us this is not the case.

 

[JonNC]

We are going to confuse each other. Remember, Luther said that the doctrine of justification by faith alone is the article in which the church stands or fall. The thread topic of a forensic justification and imputation is really about what Luther and the others Reformers believed on the vital issue of justification (being right with God). **We need to go back and understand that Protestants make a big separation between justification and sanctification (personal holiness). ** Catholic theology does not make such a separation and distinction. It helps to understand our mutually exclusive positions on these issues regarding salvation. There is much common ground, but what separate Protestants from Catholics are two main issues: authority and our views on justification.

There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow. - Luther

Jon

 

[Christian_Unity]

There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow. - Luther

Jon

I understand the Reformed view and Lutheran view which is different than easy believism. Lordship is big in the Reformed circles too. However, the issue is a forensic justification. I still don’t believe Luther believed in an adult baptismal regeneration position, rather he believed in a forensic justification through imputation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide