Forensic Justification - what's your view about it?

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Erich said:
I had posed the following questions in the In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity thread, and was asked to post them here. I see that this thread has already been ongoing for quite some time, so if these questions have already been answered somewhere in the previous 27 pages, I apologize in advance and ask that someone who’s been following along can summarize the answers.
  1. Is a dead body really a body?
  2. If a man says he has faith, and has no works, can his faith save him?
  3. How are we justified…is it by faith alone? (already answered affirmatively by ChristianUnity, to whom these questions were directed)
  4. Can an incomplete faith save us?
  5. Can someone, through well doing (good works), receive eternal life?
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I don’t kow about a summary, but…
  1. In the sense that it will be again, though glorified, yes.
  2. Depends on his opportunities. However, in general, James tells us that faith without works is dead. A dead faith is not a saving faith.
  3. It is by grace alone, through faith, that we are justified…
    But *faith alone *is not a statement of exclusion of the necessity good works (faithful obedience to the commands of God). It is specifically an acknowledgement that we access justification by grace alone through faith alone.
  4. ISTM we all have an “incomplete faith”. I think of St. Paul’s statement that the wrong he would not do, that he does, etc.
  5. Not without faith.
Jon
 
Originally Posted by Erich
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  1. Can someone, through well doing (good works), receive eternal life?
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JonNC said:
I don’t kow about a summary, but…

Not without faith.

Jon
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This answer caught my eye. While I agree with you in a general sense, what about the pigmy in the darkest reaches of the Amazon who has never even seen another person outside his small tribe. Do we not believe that God has written his laws on this man’s heart as well? And if this man follows this interior voice and therefore does not kill, does not steal, honors his mother and father, etc., can he not be saved even though he has never heard of Jesus Christ, and therefore could not have faith in him?
 
SteveVH said:
This answer caught my eye. While I agree with you in a general sense, what about the pigmy in the darkest reaches of the Amazon who has never even seen another person outside his small tribe. Do we not believe that God has written his laws on this man’s heart as well? And if this man follows this interior voice and therefore does not kill, does not steal, honors his mother and father, etc., can he not be saved even though he has never heard of Jesus Christ, and therefore could not have faith in him?
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Scripture tells us how one comes to justification - it is by grace through faith. God’s, grace, however, is His to give as a gift. There’s no reason in this world for us to believe that they are saved, but God is not of this world. Therefore, I pray for their salvation by His grace.

Jon
 
SteveVH said:
This answer caught my eye. While I agree with you in a general sense, what about the pigmy in the darkest reaches of the Amazon who has never even seen another person outside his small tribe. Do we not believe that God has written his laws on this man’s heart as well? And if this man follows this interior voice and therefore does not kill, does not steal, honors his mother and father, etc., can he not be saved even though he has never heard of Jesus Christ, and therefore could not have faith in him?
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We have the hope that he might - but we send missionaries to him so that both he and we can have the certainty of hope in Christ. 🙂

Good works alone cannot save, even in this case. It is his faith in the God whose name he does not know that saves him, if it is Christ that he is following.
 
jmcrae said:
We have the hope that he might - but we send missionaries to him so that both he and we can have the certainty of hope in Christ. 🙂

Good works alone cannot save, even in this case. It is his faith in the God whose name he does not know that saves him, if it is Christ that he is following.
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Yes, I agree and I was certainly not trying to imply that it was works that might save him, but rather following the commandments of God written upon his heart. In order to follow God’s commands, I believe one must have a sense of something greater than himself. My point is that if one’s salvation were absolutely dependent upon hearing and accepting the Gospel, then the salvation of those who have never heard it is dependent upon man’s ability to find and teach them. The Church’s first command is to go out and teach all nations, baptizing them… But until we get there we can have hope in a loving and merciful God.
 
JonNC said:
Scripture tells us how one comes to justification - it is by grace through faith. God’s, grace, however, is His to give as a gift. There’s no reason in this world for us to believe that they are saved, but God is not of this world. Therefore, I pray for their salvation by His grace.

Jon
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We can have hope in a merciful God that they will be saved. Granted this would not be the ordinary way to salvation but as you say, God is not of this world.

Blessings.
 
Erich said:
Agreed, but that wasn’t my question.

My question was, “Is a dead body really a body?”
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What relevence is the body without the soul? So again, in the sense that we will be reunited with our (glorified) bodies, yes.

Jon
 
Erich said:
Agreed, but that wasn’t my question.

My question was, “Is a dead body really a body?”
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Are you trying to ask if it is, or was a “person”? Your question does not make any sense. Do you think a body is not “real” without the soul? That sounds like one of the early heresies defeated by the Church (gnosticism) which taught that the material body was just a shell and not united with the Spirit and Soul.

Why are you asking this question?
 
JonNC said:
What relevence is the body without the soul? So again, in the sense that we will be reunited with our (glorified) bodies, yes.
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So, you’re saying that a dead body is not really a body because it is without a soul?
 
Erich said:
So, you’re saying that a dead body is not really a body because it is without a soul?
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How are you defining “body”? And for what purpose?

What does this question have to do with the thread topic?
 
guanophore said:
How are you defining “body”? And for what purpose?

What does this question have to do with the thread topic?
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I think that where Erich may be going is that a dead body is still a body. If you visit a morgue and ask what’s in the box, the answer is: a body. Even if it’s dead.

His question may come from Catholic Apologist John Martignoni’s argument regarding Faith vs Works which states:

James 2:26: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” There is an analogy here: faith = body; works = spirit. So, a body without a spirit is, as everyone knows, a dead body. It is really a body, but it’s a dead body. So, if faith is analogous to the body, as Scripture says, then faith without works, is really faith, it’s just dead faith. Thus the question: Is a dead body really a body? If they [Protestants] say, “Yes, a dead body is really a body,” ; then they cannot afterwards claim that faith without works is not really faith as that would contradict the analogy we find in James 2:26. If they say a dead body is not really a body, then they have just stated something that is truly idiotic and you need to drive them down to the morgue and ask them what those “things” are in there. So their choice is to answer in a way that contradicts one of their beliefs, or to answer in a way that is patently absurd.
 
PRmerger said:
I think that where Erich may be going is that a dead body is still a body. If you visit a morgue and ask what’s in the box, the answer is: a body. Even if it’s dead.

His question may come from Catholic Apologist John Martignoni’s argument regarding Faith vs Works which states:

James 2:26: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” There is an analogy here: faith = body; works = spirit. So, a body without a spirit is, as everyone knows, a dead body. It is really a body, but it’s a dead body. So, if faith is analogous to the body, as Scripture says, then faith without works, is really faith, it’s just dead faith. Thus the question: Is a dead body really a body? If they [Protestants] say, “Yes, a dead body is really a body,” ; then they cannot afterwards claim that faith without works is not really faith as that would contradict the analogy we find in James 2:26. If they say a dead body is not really a body, then they have just stated something that is truly idiotic and you need to drive them down to the morgue and ask them what those “things” are in there. So their choice is to answer in a way that contradicts one of their beliefs, or to answer in a way that is patently absurd.
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Thanks, PR.

I think I now see where Erich is going with this. My limited experience with Mr. Martignoni leaves me with the impression that he spends most of his apolegetics on the Reformed or their derivatives, not Lutherans.
For Lutherans, the quote provides a false choice: on the one side contadiction, and on the other, absurdity. From the Lutheran perspective, we recognize - Luther recognized - that faith without works is dead. That a dead faith, one without works, is not a saving faith. I’ve often provided quotes from Luther - his commentary on Galatians 5:6, for example - on this matter, and the Lutheran confessions speak firmly on the necessity of good works.

Jon
 
Erich said:
I had posed the following questions in the In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity thread, and was asked to post them here. I see that this thread has already been ongoing for quite some time, so if these questions have already been answered somewhere in the previous 27 pages, I apologize in advance and ask that someone who’s been following along can summarize the answers.
  1. Is a dead body really a body?
  2. If a man says he has faith, and has no works, can his faith save him?
  3. How are we justified…is it by faith alone? (already answered affirmatively by ChristianUnity, to whom these questions were directed)
  4. Can an incomplete faith save us?
  5. Can someone, through well doing (good works), receive eternal life?
Click to expand...
Erich,

A body is a body. An alive body is alive. A dead body is dead. They are both bodies that are described by adjectives that correlate with their state as we see or percieve them.

Red Flowers
Live Flowers
Dead Flowers
Resurrected Flowers
Ascended Flowers
Glorified Flowers

Dead is dead. A body is a body.
 
JonNC said:
Scripture tells us how one comes to justification - it is by grace through faith. God’s, grace, however, is His to give as a gift. There’s no reason in this world for us to believe that they are saved, but God is not of this world. Therefore, I pray for their salvation by His grace.

Jon
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John,

The Cathechism for the USA that I have been listening to says something like this…all you say is true…but God is not bound by what it is you say…God saves who he saves and how he does it for the pigmy is up to God…as God is not bound by what we believe in the context of what we know…

As we know and believe what we believe in what we know comes by way of reason, Faith and revelation…we are bound by knowledge and understanding in the Covenant…but that does not bind God in the sense that God does what He does with those that are not aware as you and I are.
 
Erich said:
What about Romans 2:6-7, “For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing [good works] seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.”
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Erich,

What about reading this in context…the letter starts…written to Christians…about the obedience of Faith…and then as you say…rendered according to their works, but those works are dependent on the gift of Faith…that is later outlined and the letter ends in the obedience of Faith.

So what is it you are misunderstanding about Romans 2?
 
CopticChristian said:
John,

The Cathechism for the USA that I have been listening to says something like this…all you say is true…but God is not bound by what it is you say…God saves who he saves and how he does it for the pigmy is up to God…as God is not bound by what we believe in the context of what we know…

As we know and believe what we believe in what we know comes by way of reason, Faith and revelation…we are bound by knowledge and understanding in the Covenant…but that does not bind God in the sense that God does what He does with those that are not aware as you and I are.
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I think we agree.

Jon
 
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