Forensic Justification - what's your view about it?

[CopticChristian]

I think that where Erich may be going is that a dead body is still a body. If you visit a morgue and ask what’s in the box, the answer is: a body. Even if it’s dead.

His question may come from Catholic Apologist John Martignoni’s argument regarding Faith vs Works which states:

James 2:26: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” There is an analogy here: faith = body; works = spirit. So, a body without a spirit is, as everyone knows, a dead body. It is really a body, but it’s a dead body. So, if faith is analogous to the body, as Scripture says, then faith without works, is really faith, it’s just dead faith. Thus the question: Is a dead body really a body? If they [Protestants] say, “Yes, a dead body is really a body,” ; then they cannot afterwards claim that faith without works is not really faith as that would contradict the analogy we find in James 2:26. If they say a dead body is not really a body, then they have just stated something that is truly idiotic and you need to drive them down to the morgue and ask them what those “things” are in there. So their choice is to answer in a way that contradicts one of their beliefs, or to answer in a way that is patently absurd.

PR,

I don’t see the analogy.

Faith is a gift.

If Faith is not used, it remains a potential gift.

If Faith is used it is a gift used.

Absent Works that Faith remains a gift.

The dead Faith is Faith that remains a potential until it produces works by which it then comes alive.

The notion of the body/faith…is that Faith is a gift to the living and I don’t recall anywhere that Faith is given to the dead as life precedes death. The only exception would be Mormons that have crazy notions about the dead.

 

[CopticChristian]

PR,

I don’t see the analogy.

Faith is a gift.

If Faith is not used, it remains a potential gift.

If Faith is used it is a gift used.

Absent Works that Faith remains a gift.

The dead Faith is Faith that remains a potential until it produces works by which it then comes alive.

Faith is a gift, in Catholic Christian theology, by way of Baptism. No baby is doing works of mercy yet has the potential.

No baby is a race car driver yet has the potential.

The notion of the body/faith…is that Faith is a gift to the living and I don’t recall anywhere that Faith is given to the dead as life precedes death. The only exception would be Mormons that have crazy notions about the dead.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Supernatural imposed virtue received at the moment of Baptism. Nevertheless this imposed virtue can be lost. Then too each of us has an obligation to preserve this faith which is grace, for the basis of our salvation is our faith. Faith/works are a contingent which requires continuity.

 

[Carlan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Unity
God’s requirment is perfection and sinlessness. I don’t think any Catholic Saint achieved the biblical requirment for reconcilation with God through their own personal holiness

Hello Christian unity, I am so glad you came to Answers concerning Forensic justification so many great apologists here to help you work out the complete Truth.

As Catholics we are redeemed by the Blood of Christ and we trust Him alone for our salvation just as you do concerning Forensic Justification, however after receiving the actual grace from God to accept that truth it is also as you mentioned here , God’s requirement is perfection and sinlessness .
So the next step is Baptism…. In Baptism all sin , original in Babes and all sin original and personal sin in adults is washed away, the garment is cleansed not simply covering the filthy muck.
We are then infused by the Holy Spirit with the sanctifying grace to help us to now grow in holiness, holy lives as Christ is Holy.
I do hope you will stay a while longer and learn about the complete Truth we here at Answers love to share!
Peace, Carlan

 

[CopticChristian]

Supernatural imposed virtue received at the moment of Baptism. Nevertheless this imposed virtue can be lost. Then too each of us has an obligation to preserve this faith which is grace, for the basis of our salvation is our faith. Faith/works are a contingent which requires continuity.

Gary,

I don’t think this is what the Catechism says…you can lose the grace that prevents you from bearing the Fruit of Faith, but not Faith…

An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.85

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

 

[KathleenGee]

Authentic Catholic spirituality, as witnessed by the saints, all say it is through self-renunciation, the Cross, and Christ Himself Who brings about their spiritual advancement.

One must not give in to discouragement or self reliance if one wishes to advance in the spiritual life.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Unity
God’s requirment is perfection and sinlessness. I don’t think any Catholic Saint achieved the biblical requirment for reconcilation with God through their own personal holiness

That’s a great post… thanks!

 

[KathleenGee]

CU…you mean to say that no Catholic saint ever claimed to be their own author of their sanctification??

They never made any claim or recognition of doing so. They could only affirm that Christ alone was the source of any goodness…nothing of themselves.

 

[PRmerger]

PR,

I don’t see the analogy.

St. James makes the analogy here: James 2:26: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

Body : faith :: spirit : works

Body without a spirit is a dead body.

Faith without works is a dead faith.

 

[CopticChristian]

St. James makes the analogy here: James 2:26: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

Body : faith :: spirit : works

Body without a spirit is a dead body.

Faith without works is a dead faith.

PR,

This I understand…however what is the point in asking if a body is dead concerning the notion that once you say yes there is a contradiction…

In the context of the Faith that is dead…and the body that is dead…the Faith that is without works is not a life…it is a gift…so the gift is unresponsive to God just as the body is unresponsive. The body is tangible and Faith…well that is a thing of Faith…

3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, “a corpse, a dead body”) – dead; literally, “what lacks life”; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions (“unable, ineffective, dead, powerless,” L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

So then what is the denial of one and the acceptance of another have to do with the entire dialogue asking if a corpse is a corpse?

 

[PRmerger]

PR,

This I understand…however what is the point in asking if a body is dead concerning the notion that once you say yes there is a contradiction…

In the context of the Faith that is dead…and the body that is dead…the Faith that is without works is not a life…it is a gift…so the gift is unresponsive to God just as the body is unresponsive. The body is tangible and Faith…well that is a thing of Faith…

So then what is the denial of one and the acceptance of another have to do with the entire dialogue asking if a corpse is a corpse?

It has to do with refuting the Sola Fide argument. Protestants often fall back on this excuse: faith without works isn’t really “faith”.

when we show them James’ mandate that faith and works are necessary.

To say that faith without works isn’t really faith is as ludicrous as saying a body without a spirit isn’t really a body. That is, a dead body isn’t really a body.

What is it, then, that’s lying in the morgue?

Mr. Martignoni articulates his refutation in his video here:
youtube.com/watch?v=G8jXidiUc8s

My own personal opinion is that this isn’t the best refutation of Sola Fide, but it’s one that Erich seemed to be setting folks up for here, using Martignoni’s argument…

And I can see Martignoni’s point. It’s just not one that I tend to use.

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU…you mean to say that no Catholic saint ever claimed to be their own author of their sanctification??

They never made any claim or recognition of doing so. They could only affirm that Christ alone was the source of any goodness…nothing of themselves.

I think historic Protestantism and the Catholic Faith both agree that progress made in sanctification (personal holiness) is done through the grace of God which has been merited by the person and work of Christ on our behalf, correct? I think the issue has to do with what is required to qualify for Heaven. I still state that perfection, and complete obedience to the law of God is required for Heaven which no human is able to obtain in this world.

All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God is the testmony of Holy Scripture; that’s a given and is the very reason we have a Savior in Jesus Christ. I do believe a forensic justification is necessary to qualify and enter Heaven, because Christ is sufficient for us; His perfect life and sacrificial death on our behalf is glorious and perfect to accomplish what God the Father has intended for our sole source of justification before a Holy God.

 

[CopticChristian]

It has to do with refuting the Sola Fide argument. Protestants often fall back on this excuse: faith without works isn’t really “faith”.

when we show them James’ mandate that faith and works are necessary.

To say that faith without works isn’t really faith is as ludicrous as saying a body without a spirit isn’t really a body. That is, a dead body isn’t really a body.

What is it, then, that’s lying in the morgue?

Mr. Martignoni articulates his refutation in his video here:
youtube.com/watch?v=G8jXidiUc8s

My own personal opinion is that this isn’t the best refutation of Sola Fide, but it’s one that Erich seemed to be setting folks up for here, using Martignoni’s argument…

And I can see Martignoni’s point. It’s just not one that I tend to use.

PR,

I understand. My own view is that this inclines a tendency to believe that we are talking Sola Scriptura in explaining Sola Fide…and this is not the Catholic Paradigm.

I am more inclined to believe that a better question is where does Faith come from? How do you get that Faith? When do you get that Faith. This delineates the paradigm and difference of belief and it differentiates consent/assent and an action on the part or a work of the person that gets the Faith.

The other thing I believe is more relevant is the book of Romans never says Faith alone…It says “obedient Faith” the first and last time the word Faith is mentioned and the correlation of James correlates. Paul does not teach Faith alone.

 

[Christian_Unity]

PR,

I understand. My own view is that this inclines a tendency to believe that we are talking Sola Scriptura in explaining Sola Fide…and this is not the Catholic Paradigm.

I am more inclined to believe that a better question is where does Faith come from? How do you get that Faith? When do you get that Faith. This delineates the paradigm and difference of belief and it differentiates consent/assent and an action on the part or a work of the person that gets the Faith.

The other thing I believe is more relevant is the book of Romans never says Faith alone…It says “obedient Faith” the first and last time the word Faith is mentioned and the correlation of James correlates. Paul does not teach Faith alone.

Is it possible that Catholics misunderstand what historic Protestants (Reformers) meant by Faith Alone? We are not saved by faith or by faith alone. We are saved by grace alone or saved by the person and work of Jesus Christ alone; His work was accomplished on our behalf which is received by faith. Again…we are not saved by faith or by faith alone. Faith is simply the instrument which grace flows from. Look at this verse again.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

:bible1:

 

[CopticChristian]

Is it possible that Catholics misunderstand what historic Protestants (Reformers) meant by Faith Alone? We are not saved by faith or by faith alone. We are saved by grace alone or saved by the person and work of Jesus Christ alone; His work was accomplished on our behalf which is received by faith. Again…we are not saved by faith or by faith alone. Faith is simply the instrument which grace flows from. Look at this verse again.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

:bible1:

CU,

Ok, now explain for me where this Faith comes from and how is it you are able to get grace.

The Catholic teaching is we are saved by GRACE alone through FAITH alone working in LOVE. These are all gifts that I do nothing to garnish. It is God working through me.

Tell me where your Faith comes from.

Tell me what this Faith does for you.

 

[CopticChristian]

Is it possible that Catholics misunderstand what historic Protestants (Reformers) meant by Faith Alone? We are not saved by faith or by faith alone. We are saved by grace alone or saved by the person and work of Jesus Christ alone; His work was accomplished on our behalf which is received by faith. Again…we are not saved by faith or by faith alone. Faith is simply the instrument which grace flows from. Look at this verse again.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

:bible1:

CU,

While you ponder the previous post…I started a thread on this in the past…see here…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=589688

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church defines Justification as sonship and is outlined in the Council of Trent. Many Protestants see Justification as an external act. Working through this I am confused. Here is what I came up with. Does this sound correct?

To have Faith that Justifies you must be born again and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Justification has nothing to do with inner moral transformation. It is only a external, forensic, legal, juridical, extrinsic act of God in His actions as a Judge, imputing Christ’s righteousness to my heavenly account.

There appears to be an inconsistency.

To be justified you have to have Faith. To have Justifying Faith you need to be reborn through the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that gives you Faith.

I am justified legally by Faith alone apart from any moral transformation although that moral transformation occurred prior to the justification and the Faith that justifies is the result of the inner transformation of the soul brought about by the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration is required to have Faith that justifies and then declare Justification to be a legal act.

It also appears that regeneration occurs on account of something that is done, a work. It appears that there is an inner transformation and yet justification is considered only external.

I want you to know that I and others have given this thought. This is not the first Justification Rodeo…

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

While you ponder the previous post…I started a thread on this in the past…see here…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=589688

I want you to know that I and others have given this thought. This is not the first Justification Rodeo…

That’s really good. Now this topic is more significant than the pot thread, right? Can you see how a Reformed doctrine of predestination is consistent with a forensic justification where regeneration precedes faith or regeneration occurs at the same time of faith? How would an unregenerate person come to Christ and obey the gospel in his unregenerate state? How would an unregenerate sinner who is running from God and loves the darkness generate saving faith on his own will power?

BTW… . I used read Mad magazines as a kid. :hey_bud:

 

[CopticChristian]

That’s really good. Now this topic is more significant than the pot thread, right? Can you see how a Reformed doctrine of predestination is consistent with a forensic justification where regeneration precedes faith or regeneration occurs at the same time of faith? How would an unregenerate person come to Christ and obey the gospel in his unregenerate state? How would an unregenerate sinner who is running from God and loves the darkness generate saving faith on his own will power?

BTW… . I used read Mad magazines as a kid. :hey_bud:

CU,

I appreciate that you believe that this is more significant than the pot thread. Realize that I have as much understanding and ability to discuss this as in the pot thread. Realize that there are others that understand this as well if not better too. Understand that I have no idea what you are talking about as you have not answered the questions I posed.

Understand that Reformed Doctrine dropped out of the Sky based on Renegade Catholics…no Church…no prior history of this teaching…the Catholic teaching at Trent is the same teaching that represents the deposit of Faith of the Apostles…

your turn…

 

[GaryTaylor]

you can lose the grace that prevents you from bearing the Fruit of Faith, but not Faith…

Faith fundamentally and literally inoperative under attack by evil? Like Judas? I agree you can’t lose the seal of Baptism till you have, however, misguided faith can lead to damnation.

 

[CopticChristian]

Faith fundamentally and literally inoperative under attack by evil? Like Judas? I agree you can’t lose the seal of Baptism till you have, however, misguided faith can lead to damnation.

GT,

Paul speaks of “shipwreck of the Faith”…but not loss…