Forensic Justification - what's your view about it?

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

This is admirable. This is CAF. Catholic Answers Forum. I see that you have started threads, not asking questions, rather promoting Calvinism and in each post defending/teaching/promoting Calvinism. You started this thread and what you call discussing a difficult question about Soveriengty of God that I see as promoting Calvinism

I don’t see you asking questions.

This is Catholic Answers Forums on the subsection called Non-Catholic Religions. The description of this subsection is " Comparing and contrasting beliefs". It seems other Catholics and the site administrators believe that my threads and participation on Catholic Answers seem fine. I have received messages of support by both Catholics and Protestants alike throught the message system. I apologize that I called you the Mad doctor… I couldn’t help myself since your Avatar is the Mad guy… and you are a doctor.

:christmastree1: Peace

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you, Christian Unity for sticking up for us.

Our friend and member did the same, Anna…who was then accused of being a Catholic troll. She is not Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

Thank you, Christian Unity for sticking up for us.

Our friend and member did the same, Anna…who was then accused of being a Catholic troll. She is not Catholic.

I can see why Anna got accused. She does self identify as Catholic, and is actually more Catholic than the majority of “Catholics” who are formally/visibly Catholic.

 

[KathleenGee]

Now she does.

But when she was a member of a fundamentalist denomination, after being on here as CU is doing, she went back and began to defend the good she saw in our faith. She went on CARM. So they turned on her and accused her as such, and that is when she removed the name of her former denomination from her name.

She is still searching, but is going in the right direction. She does not accept the papacy last time I heard.

 

[Carlan]

Christian unity’s question to us was what is our view of what he calls Forensic Justification. We all, for the most part, gave him the teaching of the Apostolic faith to either accept or not.
From what I gathered his view on justification is, once accepted, all that is necessary is to believe God has given him what ever it takes to stay obedient to his commandments and if he falls short at any time in the future that disobedience has already been paid for by the Cross of Christ and therefor his salvation is assured.
If you are still attending CU, for your benefit, I will once again give you the Apostolic Truth of the Catholic Church teaching on Justification.

It is God’s actual grace that draws us to Him to accept the redemption that Christ won for us by his death for our sins on the cross but it is through Baptism that we are cleansed of original sin by the Trinity formula as babies and if adults, also of all personal sin up to that time and it is then that we are made whole, justified one in Christ by the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. Sanctifying grace is poured into our souls, we are infused with the power of Christ to continue in life to grow holy as Christ is holy.
It is a life long process through the Apostolic Church, we have been given the fullness of Truth that helps us to reach final Salvation.
If you can accept that Truth, come join us for the rest of it allBy the way the Apostolic Church prays for the unity of Christ’s flock every minute of every day through out this world .We pray, God bless and His peace to you. Carlan

 

[CopticChristian]

This is Catholic Answers Forums on the subsection called Non-Catholic Religions. The description of this subsection is " Comparing and contrasting beliefs". It seems other Catholics and the site administrators believe that my threads and participation on Catholic Answers seem fine. I have received messages of support by both Catholics and Protestants alike throught the message system. I apologize that I called you the Mad doctor… I couldn’t help myself since your Avatar is the Mad guy… and you are a doctor.

:christmastree1: Peace

CU,

I am Mad.

I am addicted.

I am Mad about looking at those that suffer from truth decay.

I am passionately addicted to the truth and those that are blinded by their own vision of the world and I want them to see.

I am madly and passionately addicted to not be content where I am and with the grace of God find where I will go. Some paradigms, like Calvinism, stunt growth and I am all about liberating and causing freedom of thought…

Within the Catholic Paradigm…there is always…room for growth…

**What do I believe…**an ocean to be swallowed commencing with the Catechism, incorporating the Bible, Patristics and more

**How do I practice what I believe…**the Sacramental life and the riches therin

How do I imitate Christ, **the moral life, **with the grace of God and the work of God having been justified live to be sanctified…to join the Holy God and be Holy as He is Holy…and I fail constantly…

I am humbled by Saints like John of The Cross…that lived to Love God…

and I pray, and others pray…becase we are to pray without ceasing…

This is the Catholic Faith handed down from the Apostles…and no one can deny you access to the truths of the Faith…they are there for everyone…

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

I am Mad.

I am addicted.

I am Mad about looking at those that suffer from truth decay.

I am passionately addicted to the truth and those that are blinded by their own vision of the world and I want them to see.

I am madly and passionately addicted to not be content where I am and with the grace of God find where I will go. Some paradigms, like Calvinism, stunt growth and I am all about liberating and causing freedom of thought…

Within the Catholic Paradigm…there is always…room for growth…

**What do I believe…**an ocean to be swallowed commencing with the Catechism, incorporating the Bible, Patristics and more

**How do I practice what I believe…**the Sacramental life and the riches therin

How do I imitate Christ, **the moral life, **with the grace of God and the work of God having been justified live to be sanctified…to join the Holy God and be Holy as He is Holy…and I fail constantly…

I am humbled by Saints like John of The Cross…that lived to Love God…

and I pray, and others pray…becase we are to pray without ceasing…

This is the Catholic Faith handed down from the Apostles…and no one can deny you access to the truths of the Faith…they are there for everyone…

I find your posting very insightful since I just got a very similar dogmatic statement through a private message of Facebook. However, this particular Christian dogmatically declared his Fundamentialist view of Christianity was the only absolute correct one, similar to what you seem to be posting through the Catholic understanding. I would say Apostle Paul would say that you are both wrong in your absolutes:

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. - Apostle Paul

 

[SteveVH]

I find your posting very insightful since I just got a very similar dogmatic statement through a private message of Facebook. However, this particular Christian dogmatically declared his Fundamentialist view of Christianity was the only absolute correct one, similar to what you seem to be posting through the Catholic understanding. I would say Apostle Paul would say that you are both wrong in your absolutes:

I don’t think so. Paul was Catholic and constantly corrected those who strayed from the Apostolic faith.

 

[KathleenGee]

St. Thomas Aquinas got a glimpse of heaven, after he had written the Suma

After seeing heaven, he said all his works were as straw.

How can human words describe the living essence of God and all His creation?

I still think the missing link to this debate is the Mass.

The Mass is the first step here on earth into heaven. It washes away through public absolution our ordinary, daily sins. We share with the angels the praise of the Glory of God. We attend again the ancient events of the Old Testament. We are as attending the very first time as the ancients, listening to the teachings of the apostles and deacons in the Epistles. And Jesus speaks to us today in the Gospel as He did when He was here on earth.

We offer our entire selves on the altar and these gifts of our entire beings are now united with Christ and made worthy sacrifices of praise to the Heavenly Father. The gifts representing us, the bread and wind, ordinary gifts, are now changed into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ of Whom we receive in faith and adoration, now filled with eternal life from Our Lord.

Yes, heaven is here on earth in the Mass, eternal life in the Eucharist that nourishes us. We are washed of our daily sins and made clean and worthy temples to receive Him.

I cannot help but see the Mass as the answer to this forensic justification.

 

[CopticChristian]

I find your posting very insightful since I just got a very similar dogmatic statement through a private message of Facebook. However, this particular Christian dogmatically declared his Fundamentialist view of Christianity was the only absolute correct one, similar to what you seem to be posting through the Catholic understanding. I would say Apostle Paul would say that you are both wrong in your absolutes:

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. - Apostle Paul

CU,

Then you may want to listen…because what I outlined for you is the divisions of the Catechism

We Believe
We Live the Sacraments
We strive for Morality through the Commandments
We Pray

The Catechism is outlined into these 4 parts… and if your funadamentalist friend…accepts the Creeds as outlined in the We Believe, has 7 sacraments, strives to live a moral life and prays…then the message you are receiving is worth listening to…since all Christian thought comes from the OHCAC…must mean something…

Have you read Moby Dick?

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

Then you may want to listen…because what I outlined for you is the divisions of the Catechism

We Believe
We Live the Sacraments
We strive for Morality through the Commandments
We Pray

The Catechism is outlined into these 4 parts… and if your funadamentalist friend…accepts the Creeds as outlined in the We Believe, has 7 sacraments, strives to live a moral life and prays…then the message you are receiving is worth listening to…since all Christian thought comes from the OHCAC…must mean something…

Have you read Moby Dick?

Oh, I understand what you believe… that is not the issue of my posting to you. From my personal opinion, I see you in the same way that I see my fundamentialist friend… all claiming that they hold to the exclusive truth of Christianity…

 

[CopticChristian]

Oh, I understand what you believe… that is not the issue of my posting to you. From my personal opinion, I see you in the same way that I see my fundamentialist friend… all claiming that they hold to the exclusive truth of Christianity…

CU,

Then you see Fundamentalists and Catholics claiming to hold exclusive truth…this means…

You are considering that one of them must be wrong

or

You include yourself in the camp of believing you hold exclusive truth…this means…

that you accept that you hold the truth and Fundamentalists and Catholics are wrong…but consider one thing…Calvin was a Catholic, his parents were Catholic…and reaching into the Past to cherry pick Augustine for Calvinistic thought…this means that the Fundamentalists must hold less truth…

this leaves you with considering your thoughts as holding truth, Catholics as holding truth…or both are wrong and you should become a Fundamentalist…

I would bet the Fundamentalist knows who wrote Moby Dick…

 

[Christian_Unity]

CU,

Then you see Fundamentalists and Catholics claiming to hold exclusive truth…this means…

You are considering that one of them must be wrong

or

You include yourself in the camp of believing you hold exclusive truth…this means…

that you accept that you hold the truth and Fundamentalists and Catholics are wrong…but consider one thing…Calvin was a Catholic, his parents were Catholic…and reaching into the Past to cherry pick Augustine for Calvinistic thought…this means that the Fundamentalists must hold less truth…

this leaves you with considering your thoughts as holding truth, Catholics as holding truth…or both are wrong and you should become a Fundamentalist…

I would bet the Fundamentalist knows who wrote Moby Dick…

I only know in part like all Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. - Apostle Paul

:hey_bud:

 

[beehumble]

…

It is interesting that the term “Baptism” - in the Greek can mean to “dip” or to “immerse” for some time. In the preparation of pickles, both things are used. The Cucumber is “dipped” to clean it, but the Cucumber itself has not changed. But then the Cucumber is immersed over time in a Brine solution and then a pickling solution. These immersions over time allow the brine and the sauce to seep into the Cucumber changing it to a Pickle.

For the Christian, being “dipped” at Baptism makes us clean and starts the process, but it is being “immersed”, and remaining “immersed” in God’s Love and grace, in action, in living and seeking unity with our Lord that brings us nearer to the perfection to which we are called…

So in short…the idea of “imputed” and “infused” justifications each have their particular place in God’s great plan of salvation.

Peace
James

Well I’m just pickled to death to hear that!
(sorry couldn’t resist! )

God bless you.

 

[PRmerger]

I only know in part like all Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. - Apostle Paul

:hey_bud:

Amen!

And the “part” that some of us know (the Incarnation, the forgiveness of sins, the atoning death of Christ) is superior to the “part” that some other folks know (the existence of One God, the Ten Commandments, the attributes of God being just and merciful).

So you can see that it’s not arrogant for Christians to say that they see a bit more clearly than, say, Jews or Muslims…

And therefore you ought not get offended when Catholics say that the “part” that we see is clearer than the “part” that you see.

 

[PRmerger]

Amen!

And the “part” that some of us know (the Incarnation, the forgiveness of sins, the atoning death of Christ) is superior to the “part” that some other folks know (the existence of One God, the Ten Commandments, the attributes of God being just and merciful).

So you can see that it’s not arrogant for Christians to say that they see a bit more clearly than, say, Jews or Muslims…

And therefore you ought not get offended when Catholics say that the “part” that we see is clearer than the “part” that you see.

 

[CopticChristian]

I only know in part like all Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. - Apostle Paul

:hey_bud:

CU,

I may interject that like Chrysostom there is a meaning that you may be inferring that others do not apply…

Do you see how in two ways he pulls down their pride? Both because their knowledge is in part, and because not even this have they of themselves. For I knew Him not, but He made Himself known to me, says he. Wherefore, even as now He first knew me, and Himself hastened towards me, so shall I hasten towards Him then much more than now. For so he that sits in darkness, as long as he sees not the sun does not of himself hasten to meet the beauty of its beam, which indeed shows itself as soon as it has begun to shine: but when he perceives its brightness, then also himself at length follows after its light: This then is the meaning of the expression, even as also I have been known. Not that we shall so know him as He is, but that even as He hastened toward us now, so also shall we cleave unto Him then, and shall know many of the things which are now secret, and shall enjoy that most blessed society and wisdom. For if Paul who knew so much was a child, consider what those things must be. If these be a glass and a riddle, do thou hence again infer, God’s open Face, how great a thing It is.

1. But that I may open out to you some small part of this difference, and may impart some faint ray of this thought to your soul, I would have you recall to mind things as they were in the Law, now after that grace has shone forth. For those things too, that came before grace, had a certain great and marvellous appearance: nevertheless, hear what Paul says of them after grace came: That which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that surpasses. 2 Corinthians 3:10

But that what I say may be made yet clearer, let us apply the argument to some one of the rites then performed, and then you will see how great is the difference. And if you will, let us bring forward that passover and this, and then shall you be aware of our superiority. For the Jews indeed celebrated it, but they celebrated it so as in a mirror, and darkly. But these hidden mysteries they never at any time did even conceive in their mind, nor what things they prefigured. They saw a lamb slain, and the blood of a beast, and door-posts sprinkled with it; but that the Son of God incarnate shall be slain, and shall set free the whole world, and shall grant both to Greeks and Barbarians to taste of this Blood, and shall open heaven to all, and shall offer what is there to the whole human race, and having taken His blood-stained flesh shall exalt it above the heaven, and the heaven of heavens, and, in a word, above all the hosts on high, of the angels and archangels and all the other powers, and shall cause it shining in unspeakable glory—to sit down upon the throne itself of the King, on the right hand of the Father these things, I say, no one, either of them or of the rest of mankind, either foreknew or was able ever to conceive.

4. But what say those who shrink from nothing? That the expression, now I know in part, is spoken in dispensations; for that the Apostle had the perfect knowledge of God. And now he calls himself a child? How sees he in a mirror? How darkly, if he has the sum of knowledge? And why does he refer to it as something peculiar to the Spirit, and to no other power in the creation, saying, For who among men knows the things of a man, save the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the things of God none knows, save the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11 And Christ again says that this belongs to Himself alone, thus saying, Not that any man has seen the Father, save He which is from God, He has seen the Father, John 6:46 giving the name, sight, to the most clear and perfect knowledge.

And how shall he who knows the Essence, be ignorant of the dispensations? Since that knowledge is greater than this.

Are we then, says he, ignorant of God? Far from it. That He is, we know, but what He is, as regards His Essence, we know not yet. And that you may understand that not concerning the dispensations did he speak the words, now I know in part, hear what follows. He adds then, but then shall I know, even as also I have been known. He was surely known not by the dispensations, but by God.

Let none therefore consider this to be a small or simple transgression, but twofold, and threefold, yea and manifold.** For not only is there this impiety that they boast of knowing those things which belong to the Spirit alone; and to the only-begotten Son of God, but also that when Paul could not acquire even this knowledge which is in part without the revelation from above, these men say that they have obtained the whole from their own reasonings. ****For neither are they able to point out that the Scripture has any where discoursed to us of these things.**5. But however, leaving their madness, let us give heed to the words which follow concerning love. For he was not content with these things, but adds again, saying,

And now abides, faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these…

And so it is that not all things are known by Scripture, but by Revelation…and we are so sure that we know that in many and various ways God spoke through the prophets and in these last days through His Son…and these deposits of Faith are available, you don’t have to go up to heaven, nor do you have to go to the depths it is near and in your mouth and you will hear it when you read the Catechism…

Have you read Moby Dick?

 

[guanophore]

Have you read Moby Dick?

CU seems to avoid this question even more than the one “at what point was Cornelius regenerated?”

Why is that?

 

[CopticChristian]

CU seems to avoid this question even more than the one “at what point was Cornelius regenerated?”

Why is that?

My Dear Oblate,

I do not know. We both agree that he has access to Bible quotes…and there is no telling whether he read Moby Dick.

It is more likely that he has access to answer your question than mine based on the evidence…

 

[PRmerger]

My Dear Oblate,

I do not know. We both agree that he has access to Bible quotes…and there is no telling whether he read Moby Dick.

It is more likely that he has access to answer your question than mine based on the evidence…

So what is this Moby Dick reference? I don’t understand. I thought I’d been keeping up on this thread…but I clearly have missed a big theme!

(NB: I know what Moby Dick is --–I just want to know why it’s being referenced here.)