Foreplay when pregnant a sin if it doesn't go any further?

[baylee]

The issue is not whether or not they are open to life, but whether or not the act includes the procreative aspect, which is different to being able to get pregnant.

What is the point of the procreative aspect if it is not about being open to life/getting pregnant? This makes no sense.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

The issue is not whether or not they are open to life, but whether or not the act includes the procreative aspect, which is different to being able to get pregnant.

What is the point of the procreative aspect if it is not about being open to life/getting pregnant? This makes no sense.

I was replying to the quote
“The not being open to life issue is mute in all of this b/c this woman is already pregnant.” but actually, the fact that the act should always be open to life does not mean the act can only be done when the conditions to get pregnant are present. This is why I keep bringing up the infertile couple, the post-menopausal couple, the pregnant couple. The procreative aspect of the marital embrace is not dependent on the chances of the couple getting pregnant at the time of the embrace. If a couple is participating in the act during the time that the wife is fertile and they use ABC, withdrawl, or another form of “mutilation” to the act, the procreative aspect is not there, while, if a couple that is infertile, in fact, the woman is sterile because she had cancer and had her whole reproductive system removed, if they participate in the marital act they can have both the procreative and the unitive aspects present, and can participate fully in the act, regardless of their ability to get pregnant.

 

[Serap]

I was replying to the quote
“The not being open to life issue is mute in all of this b/c this woman is already pregnant.” but actually, the fact that the act should always be open to life does not mean the act can only be done when the conditions to get pregnant are present. This is why I keep bringing up the infertile couple, the post-menopausal couple, the pregnant couple. The procreative aspect of the marital embrace is not dependent on the chances of the couple getting pregnant at the time of the embrace. If a couple is participating in the act during the time that the wife is fertile and they use ABC, withdrawl, or another form of “mutilation” to the act, the procreative aspect is not there, while, if a couple that is infertile, in fact, the woman is sterile because she had cancer and had her whole reproductive system removed, if they participate in the marital act they can have both the procreative and the unitive aspects present, and can participate fully in the act, regardless of their ability to get pregnant.

I wanted to tell you that I appreciate that your tone in this thread has been factual and non-judgemental. Thanks for that.

 

[tampagrl]

Believe me I am there with you!! I barely found out that masturbation was a sin…like last year or the year before…so at 30 years old that to me is barely finding out… Secondly barely finding out about NFP, and 3rdly about this whole foreplay thing… I thought you had to do whatever you could to keep your partner-spouse- happy?? BUT I guess as long as it doesn’t turn him/her on that you are not committing a sin?.. Confucious say this is confusing…

lol…I know, it’s like, what am I gonna find out next?!!

I totally confused things, I think, by bringing up my NFP/fertile/infertile comments - I apologize. Everyone is focusing on that it seems and therefore, I’m not even half-understanding some of these replies, and I consider myself fairly intelligent…ya know, college grad n’ all…

Anyhoooooo…here’s MY thing. The original question was about foreplay and turning each other on W/O completing the entire sexual act - to be clear, that would be the husband ejaculating inside his wife, where regardless of either’s fertility, they are both open to life being created if God so willed it. Okay, cool.

My comes from the fact that I’m understanding a majority of people in this thread say that it IS a mortal sin if the husband and wife *intentionally *engage in foreplay that results in climaxing for the husband (outside his wife) and/or the wife climaxing from her husband due to him doing something other than being physically inside her.

I do not believe that, nor do I believe that’s the interpretation we should get from the CCC.

I do NOT think this woman is in mortal sin by engaging in consensual erotic foreplay with the knowledge that she and her husband were not planning on actually having him enter her to “complete the act” .

For me personally, if there is a legit reason that I can’t physically engage in “normal” sex with my husband, I don’t think we’re in mortal sin if we intentionally and willfully engage in other acts that result in climaxing for either of us.

I believe that a solid, healthy Catholic marriage that is open to life, is also meant to be mutally fun and exciting for BOTH husband and wife.
Bada-Bing, Bada-Boom

 

[lizziebits]

I’ve been following this whole thread for as long as its been around…and I just wanted to sum up what I think has been established so far:

1. Lust, in all circumstances, is a grave matter (potential for mortal sin with other conditions being met)
2. A man’s climax outside of intercourse is a grave matter (potential for mortal sin with other conditions being met)
3. Foreplay, when it does not involve 1 or 2, is a debatable moral position, with two options
   a) ok in the context of marriage provided it does not involve point 1) or 2) or
   b) a near occasion of sin, potentially a venial sin

I’m with group 3a, for the record, and I think that position can be supported by information gleaned from reliable sources. I also think that positions 1) and 2) are quite easily supported by all sorts of Catholic doctrine, and that sometimes this is a difficult teaching to accept.

Does anyone disagree with that analysis of the situation?

 

[Serap]

I’ve been following this whole thread for as long as its been around…and I just wanted to sum up what I think has been established so far:

1. Lust, in all circumstances, is a grave matter (potential for mortal sin with other conditions being met)
2. A man’s climax outside of intercourse is a grave matter (potential for mortal sin with other conditions being met)
3. Foreplay, when it does not involve 1 or 2, is a debatable moral position, with two options
   a) ok in the context of marriage provided it does not involve point 1) or 2) or
   b) a near occasion of sin, potentially a venial sin

I’m with group 3a, for the record, and I think that position can be supported by information gleaned from reliable sources. I also think that positions 1) and 2) are quite easily supported by all sorts of Catholic doctrine, and that sometimes this is a difficult teaching to accept.

Does anyone disagree with that analysis of the situation?

My understanding is that the CCC doesn’t state a man climaxing outside of the woman (during the marital embrace of course) as being a “grave matter”. It is described as “disordered” and against natural law.

We need to be clear on what is mortal sin and what is venial sin.

 

[lizziebits]

My understanding is that the CCC doesn’t state a man climaxing outside of the woman (during the marital embrace of course) as being a “grave matter”. It is described as “disordered” and against natural law.

We need to be clear on what is mortal sin and what is venial sin.

Would that not be contraceptive? If that is ok, why is withdrawal not a legitimate form of birth control?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’ve been following this whole thread for as long as its been around…and I just wanted to sum up what I think has been established so far:

1. Lust, in all circumstances, is a grave matter (potential for mortal sin with other conditions being met)
2. A man’s climax outside of intercourse is a grave matter (potential for mortal sin with other conditions being met)
3. Foreplay, when it does not involve 1 or 2, is a debatable moral position, with two options
   a) ok in the context of marriage provided it does not involve point 1) or 2) or
   b) a near occasion of sin, potentially a venial sin

I’m with group 3a, for the record, and I think that position can be supported by information gleaned from reliable sources. I also think that positions 1) and 2) are quite easily supported by all sorts of Catholic doctrine, and that sometimes this is a difficult teaching to accept.

Does anyone disagree with that analysis of the situation?

Yes, great breakdown of the discussion. I concur points 1 and 2, I concur point 3a (and would include female climax also).

Great analysis. In my own, somewhat limited ways I have been trying to argue point 3a,

 

[Serap]

Would that not be contraceptive? If that is ok, why is withdrawal not a legitimate form of birth control?

NFP is not considered ABC even though it is used to create and avoid.

Birth control is “artificial” - condoms, pills, IUD’s, diaphrams, etc. It creates an artificial barrier of sperm to the egg while the man is ejaculating inside the woman.

 

[lizziebits]

NFP is not considered ABC even though it is used to create and avoid.

Birth control is “artificial” - condoms, pills, IUD’s, diaphrams, etc. It creates an artificial barrier of sperm to the egg while the man is ejaculating inside the woman.

Birth control is not artificial or natural, it is simply a means of regulating births. I beleive the CCC calls it birth regulation, but I think we are splitting hairs with semantics.

Hmm…ok,here is the quote: CCC 2370

“every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:"

I’m pretty sure withdrawal would fall into that category. Do you disagree?

 

[kage_ar]

My comes from the fact that I’m understanding a majority of people in this thread say that it IS a mortal sin if the husband and wife *intentionally *engage in foreplay that results in climaxing for the husband (outside his wife) and/or the wife climaxing from her husband due to him doing something other than being physically inside her.

What you describe here is mutual masturbation.

Foreplay seems to be a code word here for masturbation.

To masturbate is to stimulate the genitals to achieve orgasm.

Foreplay is acts that stimulate the genitals into arousal to prepare those organs for sexual intercourse. It can be manual or oral.

 

[tampagrl]

My understanding is that the CCC doesn’t state a man climaxing outside of the woman (during the marital embrace of course) as being a “grave matter”. It is described as “disordered” and against natural law.

We need to be clear on what is mortal sin and what is venial sin.

Okay, I finally feel like I"m understanding…lol… I’m going to hit myself over the head after this thread is closed, you realize this…

The CCC does NOT say that it is a grave matter if the husband climaxes outside of his wife (during normal intimate relations together - I include foreplay in that)

I understand the CCC as saying, “disordered”, meaning it’s not the normal way, that is, the husband is not entering his wife and climaxing while inside. Okay. Fine.

Against the natural law - I understand that to mean that it’s not procreative. Okay, clearly, if sperm is deposited anywhere but inside a woman it’s not going to have a chance to meet an egg and potentially create life/

None of that, to me, means it’s sinful. It’s disordered, maybe, it’s against the natural law, maybe, but downright sinful? The CCC doesn’t say that.

I submit that the husband and wife should both try to please each other in a sexual way, as part of keeping their marriage healthy and vibrant, when they both feel it is appropriate to do so - and that includes erotic foreplay to the point of climaxing, outside “normal” penetration.

I’m gonna start a thread about wives climaxing via our husbands, when there is some reason we can’t have intercourse with him…lol… JUST kidding!

 

[Serap]

What you describe here is mutual masturbation.

Foreplay seems to be a code word here for masturbation.

To masturbate is to stimulate the genitals to achieve orgasm.

Foreplay is acts that stimulate the genitals into arousal to prepare those organs for sexual intercourse. It can be manual or oral.

Masturbation is done alone and the lustful thoughts that accompany it are sinful.

If a married couple embrace eachother and love eachother, but it doesn’t finish, it does not state in this context anywhere in the CCC that it is a Mortal Sin.

This is what the underlying debate has been on this thread. It may be a venial sin, yes, but a mortal sin; there is nothing that states a grave matter in the marital embrace.

 

[lizziebits]

Okay, I finally feel like I"m understanding…lol… I’m going to hit myself over the head after this thread is closed, you realize this…

The CCC does NOT say that it is a grave matter if the husband climaxes outside of his wife (during normal intimate relations together - I include foreplay in that)

I understand the CCC as saying, “disordered”, meaning it’s not the normal way, that is, the husband is not entering his wife and climaxing while inside. Okay. Fine.

Against the natural law - I understand that to mean that it’s not procreative. Okay, clearly, if sperm is deposited anywhere but inside a woman it’s not going to have a chance to meet an egg and potentially create life/

None of that, to me, means it’s sinful. It’s disordered, maybe, it’s against the natural law, maybe, but downright sinful? The CCC doesn’t say that.

I submit that the husband and wife should both try to please each other in a sexual way, as part of keeping their marriage healthy and vibrant, when they both feel it is appropriate to do so - and that includes erotic foreplay to the point of climaxing, outside “normal” penetration.

I’m gonna start a thread about wives climaxing via our husbands, when there is some reason we can’t have intercourse with him…lol… JUST kidding!

I would disagree with your assessment of the situation.

I would say that the catechism speaks of climax outside of normal intercourse as intrinsically evil.

(I want to add that I join in these discussions not with a sense of moral superiority or anything, but simply because I think it is good to clarify what the church actually does or does not teach. I’m certainly not sitting here thinking about these people on this board and how sinful they are. In actuality, when I’m not typing a reply right now, I’m thinking about how maybe I should take a nap, but its probably too late because my son is going to wake up soon).

 

[lizziebits]

Masturbation is done alone and the lustful thoughts that accompany it are sinful.

If a married couple embrace eachother and love eachother, but it doesn’t finish, it does not state in this context anywhere in the CCC that it is a Mortal Sin.

This is what the underlying debate has been on this thread. It may be a venial sin, yes, but a mortal sin; there is nothing that states a grave matter in the marital embrace.

Serap – just to clarify – do you agree that CCC is referring to withdrawal in the quote I mentioned above?

 

[kage_ar]

Masturbation is done alone and the lustful thoughts that accompany it are sinful.

If a married couple embrace eachother and love eachother, but it doesn’t finish, it does not state in this context anywhere in the CCC that it is a Mortal Sin.

This is what the underlying debate has been on this thread. It may be a venial sin, yes, but a mortal sin; there is nothing that states a grave matter in the marital embrace.

Masturbation can be done alone, or with your spouse, or BY your spouse to you or with a room full of people.

Please, do yourself a favor, get some books by Catholic Moral Teachers- start with Theology of the Body for Beginners by West and then get Holy Sex by Popcack.

 

[Serap]

I would disagree with your assessment of the situation.

I would say that the catechism speaks of climax outside of normal intercourse as intrinsically evil.

(I want to add that I join in these discussions not with a sense of moral superiority or anything, but simply because I think it is good to clarify what the church actually does or does not teach. I’m certainly not sitting here thinking about these people on this board and how sinful they are. In actuality, when I’m not typing a reply right now, I’m thinking about how maybe I should take a nap, but its probably too late because my son is going to wake up soon).

My understanding is that the CCC talks of climax outside of intercourse to mean masturbation as being alone and pleasing oneself with lustful thoughts.

In the marital embrace, this may not be the case at all. A husband and wife who really love eachother and share their love that doesn’t end in intercourse are not necessarily committing a mortal sin.

I think it’s very irresponsible to tell married couples that the CCC states they are in mortal sin. This is HUGE…they cannot accept the Eurcharist and they are doomed for Hell.

 

[kage_ar]

Remember, the Catechism does not contain the whole of Catholic Moral Teaching. It is a high level reference book with footnotes and links to the entire documents. This is a complex emotional issue, and you will do yourself well to study the actual documents and the work that has been done by Moral Theologians and Catholic Counselors based on the entire body of work.

 

[Serap]

Serap – just to clarify – do you agree that CCC is referring to withdrawal in the quote I mentioned above?

I am not sure to be honest with you. I would say “yes” using my reasoning.

 

[tampagrl]

I would disagree with your assessment of the situation.

I would say that the catechism speaks of climax outside of normal intercourse as intrinsically evil.

(I want to add that I join in these discussions not with a sense of moral superiority or anything, but simply because I think it is good to clarify what the church actually does or does not teach. I’m certainly not sitting here thinking about these people on this board and how sinful they are. In actuality, when I’m not typing a reply right now, I’m thinking about how maybe I should take a nap, but its probably too late because my son is going to wake up soon).

I disagree w/your disagreement…but I totally LOL’d b/c my son, too, is due up any minute and I’m soooo tired…but i’ve become a tad obsessed w/understanding this issue.

I think it’s been well stated that the CCC does not say that climaxing outside of normal intercouse is intrinsically evil - If you can find where it says exactly that in the CCC, then I’ll humbly concede. In regards to the phrase “intrinsically evil”, I think you’re mixing up posts below where they started talking about birth control…“pulling out” etc…THAT I agree with b/c you’re actively engaged in having sex. Pulling out is an act of trying not to conceive and shows you’re not open to life.

But this whole foreplay/climaxing outside the wife/you’re sinning and hell bound dilema, doesn’t make sense to me. It’s just not that black n’ white. What if, for whatever reason, and several have been stated here already, a husband can’t have intercourse w/his wife. Or Vice Versa…they’re supposed to never climax together via any other way? Ever?