Foreplay when pregnant a sin if it doesn't go any further?

[kage_ar]

Where are we getting these things from? Certainly we sin because of weakness, but that is why we have the beautiful sacrament of confession. Maturbation is a mortal sin, like it or not. A priest’s personal opinion doesn’t really matter, it is what the Church teaches that matters. If you don’t accept the teachings of the Church, you’ve got a problem. I once had a priest tell me in confession not to pray the Rosary because it’s nothing more than a mantra and doesn’t mean anything. Should I accept that just because a priest said it?

Please, people, we are getting into very dangerous ground here. When you say something, please back it up. Don’t just give your opinions. This is life and death stuff that we are talking about.

Exactly! When it comes down to it, sin really is black and white. Between Thou Shalt Not and the CCC, the Church in her wisdom knows that by age 7 we have the discretion to know what is sin, we understand more as we grow and learn.

 

[Brooklyn]

Everyone is “getting it from” the Church’s teaching.

To say that masturbation is a grave act and can be a mortal sin is completely correct.

To suggest that it is always a mortal sin would suggest that one is privy to the circumstances surrounding the act, namely, the knowledge and intent of the perpetrator. That is impossible.

If a person is truly ignorant that masturbation is a mortal sin, then he or she is not culpable. But if you know it is a mortal sin and do it anyway, you are guilty. But we have a merciful loving God who is always willing to forgive, and always willing to give us the grace, if we really want and are willing to suffer by saying no to ourselves, to overcome sin.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Here is some information on Gregory Popcak

exceptionalmarriages.com/about.htm

About Gregory K. Popcak, MSW., Ph.D. Founder/Executive Director

Dr. Gregory Popcak (POP-chak) is a nationally recognized expert in Catholic pastoral counseling, especially in the areas of affective disorders (depression, anxiety) and marriage and family problems. He has degrees in psychology and theology as well as a Master’s degree in clinical social work and a Ph.D. in human services with a specialization in pastoral counseling. He is the author of seven popular books integrating the faith with counseling psychology and has contributed many chapters to books on such topics as homeschooling, mixed-faith marriages, the priest-abuse scandal, and a textbook on family therapy. Dr. Popcak’s articles and columns can regularly be found in such publications such as Catholic Parent, Family Foundations, Faith and Family, Our Sunday Visitor and others, and he has been interviewed on marriage and family issues in publications as diverse as Columbia, Ladies Home Journal, and The National Enquirer.

He has hosted two television series for EWTN (For Better…FOREVER! and God Help Me!). Together with his wife, Lisa, Dr. Popcak hosts the daily, nationally-syndicated Catholic radio broadcast, Heart Mind & Strength. In addition to his duties as Executive Director of the Institute, he serves as the Senior Clinician for the Catholic telephone counseling practice which provides over 4000 hrs/yr of ongoing, Catholic tele-counseling services to Catholic couples, families, and individuals around the world.

The book I referred to, is endorsed by Christopher West, Janet E Smith, Most Rev. R Daniel Conlon, Bishop of Steubenville, and Fether Thomas D. Williams, LC, Dean of theology at Rome’s Regina Apostolorum University.

 

[Brooklyn]

Here is some information on Gregory Popcak

exceptionalmarriages.com/about.htm

The book I referred to, is endorsed by Christopher West, Janet E Smith, Most Rev. R Daniel Conlon, Bishop of Steubenville, and Fether Thomas D. Williams, LC, Dean of theology at Rome’s Regina Apostolorum University.

If you can manage to engage in sexual foreplay without going to climax, then you’re a better person than I am! Maybe it is okay then. But to me, foreplay means sex.

 

[beckycmarie]

The sexual act is…the sexual act, intercourse. Foreplay comes before the sexual act. If climax occurs, it must happen with the completed act (intercourse)

If climax isn’t the goal, but instead physically showing love, then foreplay is fine.

If foreplay is used to have a climax without intercourse, then that isn’t allowed.

I’m not making this up out of thin air. Gregory Popcak’s book “Holy Sex” talks about this, especially in the chapter on NFP.

Holy Sex, Gregory Popcak, page 173For example, if you and you mate were trying to avoid pregnancy in a given month and the fertile phase of the wife’s cycle lasted ten days, then on each of those days you would make a date with your partner to do any or all of the following, cuddle together, make out without going all the way

I don’t think “making out without going all the way” includes foreplay when there is no intention to complete the marital act.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I don’t think “making out without going all the way” includes foreplay.

How else would you interpret it? Am I confused?

 

[jwashu]

Where are we getting these things from? Certainly we sin because of weakness, but that is why we have the beautiful sacrament of confession. Maturbation is a mortal sin, like it or not. A priest’s personal opinion doesn’t really matter, it is what the Church teaches that matters. If you don’t accept the teachings of the Church, you’ve got a problem. I once had a priest tell me in confession not to pray the Rosary because it’s nothing more than a mantra and doesn’t mean anything. Should I accept that just because a priest said it?

Please, people, we are getting into very dangerous ground here. When you say something, please back it up. Don’t just give your opinions. This is life and death stuff that we are talking about.

Did praying the Rosary for you become a mantra? if so then it might have been meaningless? I don’t know that’s really between you & God.

If a sacramental holds no meaning or doesn’t bring you closer to God then no you shouldn’t do it just to go through the motions. The point of everything is to bring us closer to God. If praying the Rosary didn’t work for you, try Station of the Cross! Time before the Blessed Sacrament, which I need to do more often, is very meaningful to me.

What are the requirements for something being a mortal sin?

                 1.  Grievous matter
                 2. Sufficient reflection
                 3. Full consent of the will

Specifically both 2 and 3 can cause problems from a theological perspective… and in all actuality, why I mentioned Aug and Aquinas earlier, number 1 has changed from time to time as well.

What is truly meant by FULL CONSENT? Lets take a step back and talk about salvation…

We believe that if someone fully understands the Truth of the Church and leaves that they could put their soul in jeopardy. However how many people, and I mean even some Priests, truly and fully understand all the Teachings of the Church? and even then it’s only “could” not will since V2.

I’m NOT saying anyone should go against what is in the CCC, but read carefully and talk with your Priest so that he can help you better understand how those three requirements effect you and your sin. That is all.

Search the Ask an Apologist section on the forums. Fr Serpa is dead on, I’ve never seen him go against anything their Church teaches but he has discussed culpability and mitigating circumstances before as well. That’s not liberal theology or going against the Church. That is understand how we can get the most of our Confession and penance so that we can grow and remain in a state of grace.

Joe

 

[Convert_in_99]

Mary Gail is right. Anything is acceptable as long as there is no climax for either spouse outside the marital act. Also one may not make their spouse excessively aroused to the point at which they may otherwise be tempted to finish outside the marital act (in a sinful manner.)

I have gathered this from many sources on EWTN questions and answers forums.

Here is one such post and reply.

Here is another reply.

EWTN is very reliable in all things relating to the church and her teachings.

 

[beckycmarie]

How else would you interpret it? Am I confused?

To me “making out” is a reference to kissing only, but I just went and wikipedia’d it, and according to wikipedia, it can include a wide variety of activities that round several bases. . .

I think the confusion is in Popcak’s use of slang rather than being clear. Is there a way to contact the author for clarification?

My understanding is that if there is no intent to have a completed act of intercourse, then there shouldn’t be any genital activity going on.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

No, it isn’t “anything goes” as long as you don’t climax, etc.

It really varies by couple, which is why there are no set rules (you can do this, not that, etc). Basically, it is important to put effort to keep lust out of the picture. From the catechism:

**2351 ***Lust *is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. **Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes. **
…
The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.145

2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family. The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity. "

The act must always include the procreative/unitive, fidelity/fecundity aspects. This does not mean that every single act has to lead to a pregnancy. It just means that the elements need to be there, the act has to be completed as it was intended, with the aspects that are particular to it. A couple that is completely infertile, postmenopausal, etc can still partake in the marital act, and the act will still include the procreative and unitive aspects even if the couple knows there is no way a new life will come out of the act.

 

[caeli0]

Just a thought that I would like answered b/c my husband and I engaged in foreplay and it stopped there. I knew by how tired we were that it would likely just be foreplay also.

Did we still sin?

You as well as your DH obviously are old enough to be the custodians of your own souls. You are married and expecting a child, that I will assume (by the concern you have) was conceived within the marriage bond.

There is one thing that is as bad as refusing to admit that a sin exists, and that is the burden that there is one when there isn’t. Foreplay is foreplay! I again will assume that at sometime in the future you and your DH will fully partake of the marital act. Therefore foreplay is foreplay. Mutual stimulation to the point of mutual satisfaction is mutual masturbation. Foreplay is not!

You and your DH enjoy each other. Congratulations!

 

[Serap]

Thanks for your responses. Most of you mentioned that I am in mortal sin…a.k.a. destined for Hell…thanks. I still accepted the Eucharist last Sunday b/c I just don’t believe this.

I don’t believe that I am in mortal sin b/c I don’t have complete understanding and I still don’t understand why it’s a sin. I understand that masturbating and having lustful thoughts is a sin; that contraception is a sin…I get those sins. I practice NFP and I don’t masturbate alone in a room or lust after anyone. I pray the Rosary when I feel weak.

I just don’t get how my husband and I can be sinning when we are showing love to eachother. I prayed yesterday for God to help me understand and the answer that I seemed to be getting was “I forgive you. Stop worrying.”

I will mention it in Confession, but I had a very good priest tell me that as long as husband and wife are not using eachother for sexual pleasure (and that can happen with sex too guys ), then there is no sin.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Thanks for your responses. Most of you mentioned that I am in mortal sin…a.k.a. destined for Hell…thanks. I still accepted the Eucharist last Sunday b/c I just don’t believe this.

I don’t believe that I am in mortal sin b/c I don’t have complete understanding and I still don’t understand why it’s a sin. I understand that masturbating and having lustful thoughts is a sin; that contraception is a sin…I get those sins. I practice NFP and I don’t masturbate alone in a room or lust after anyone. I pray the Rosary when I feel weak.

I just don’t get how my husband and I can be sinning when we are showing love to eachother. I prayed yesterday for God to help me understand and the answer that I seemed to be getting was “I forgive you. Stop worrying.”

I will mention it in Confession, but I had a very good priest tell me that as long as husband and wife are not using eachother for sexual pleasure (and that can happen with sex too guys ), then there is no sin.

I agree that it’s sometimes is tough to understand because of ambiguity of language and there are several different valid viewpoints.

What people are telling you is that foreplay is ok if your husband completes the act in it’s proper place. That’s the only “rule” of the act. The reason being act has to be open to life and unitive. The sin occurs when you frustrate the open to life part of the equation. This can either be by contraception or having your husband not finish the act in the right place. It does not matter if it is impossible for you to get pregnant (i.e. you already are pregnant or you have some other medical condition). It does not get much more clearer than this.

One question that I have - don’t take offense and you don’t have to answer in a public forum, it’s more food for thought between your husband and yourself. What exactly is keeping you from completing the act the proper way? You guys will have to have an honest talk with each other about your concerns. Also, you may want to talk with a medical professional about any concerns you may have. Just being “self conscience” or “it may hurt the baby” or “it’s uncomfortable” may require some adjustment and/or communication with the appropriate parties. It does not, however, give you license to sin.

As for being in mortal sin, let’s review what a mortal sin is:

1. It has to be grave matter
2. You have to know it is a grave matter
3. You know it’s wrong, but still do it anyways

In your situation, #1 is true - the act is not completed properly. However, it sounds like you and your husband didn’t completely know that this is a grave matter, so it may mitigate your culpability for the sin. I would talk to a good orthodox priest about this during your confessions.

 

[Tosk]

Thanks for your responses. Most of you mentioned that I am in mortal sin…a.k.a. destined for Hell…thanks. I still accepted the Eucharist last Sunday b/c I just don’t believe this.

I don’t believe that I am in mortal sin b/c I don’t have complete understanding and I still don’t understand why it’s a sin. I understand that masturbating and having lustful thoughts is a sin; that contraception is a sin…I get those sins. I practice NFP and I don’t masturbate alone in a room or lust after anyone. I pray the Rosary when I feel weak.

I just don’t get how my husband and I can be sinning when we are showing love to eachother. I prayed yesterday for God to help me understand and the answer that I seemed to be getting was “I forgive you. Stop worrying.”

I will mention it in Confession, but I had a very good priest tell me that as long as husband and wife are not using eachother for sexual pleasure (and that can happen with sex too guys ), then there is no sin.

Hi Serap,

I admit it is kind of strange and I thought the same thing as you. It isn’t as if my wife and I can get any MORE pregnant than we already are. As for mortal sin, it sounds as if you honestly didn’t know this was a grave matter so it seems you are ok.

I think that this article by GEM Anscombe might help you understand why a little better: orthodoxytoday.org/articles/AnscombeChastity.shtml. Basically according to natural law every genital act must be the reproductive type of act, even if you can’t get pregnant, and this includes ejaculating in the proper place. Any other way of finishing the sex act is contrary to natural law.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I don’t believe that I am in mortal sin b/c I don’t have complete understanding and I still don’t understand why it’s a sin. I understand that masturbating and having lustful thoughts is a sin; that contraception is a sin…I get those sins. I practice NFP and I don’t masturbate alone in a room or lust after anyone.

One more follow up from me. I think you answered your own question here. Foreplay, in the way you have descibed is a sin for the same reasons these other sins are sins. Any use of said faculties that’s not open to life and unitive is a sin.

 

[lizziebits]

One more follow up from me. I think you answered your own question here. Foreplay, in the way you have descibed is a sin for the same reasons these other sins are sins. Any use of said faculties that’s not open to life and unitive is a sin.

I’m not sure there is compelling teaching that what she was describing is in fact a sin. I think there has been some legitimate debate about it.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I’m not sure there is compelling teaching that what she was describing is in fact a sin. I think there has been some legitimate debate about it.

It sounded like her husband completed the act outside of the proper place (sorry if I misread things).

If this is the truth, then yes, most posters here have given correct advice regarding this being grave matter. It is also grave matter to have foreplay without the intention to complete the act (for men) or in the incorrect context (for women).

 

[Convert_in_99]

Again, as long as there is no climax for either spouse outside the marital act, no spouse is excessively aroused to the point it is difficult for them to stop or avoid temptation to sin and neither spouse is doing it out of lust (purely for their own sake with out regards for the other) then passionate kissing, caressing and even mild petting are alright for some spouses. Not all spouses have good enough control to do this, and if they don’t it should be avoided all together. I think that this is what most persons on this thread are trying to say. For a lot of spouses it may be best to avoid these ‘close encounters’ all together when trying to abstain. For others it is able to be done and it can actually prepare them in mind and body to be one flesh as soon as they can next share the marital embrace.

 

[Convert_in_99]

It sounded like her husband completed the act outside of the proper place (sorry if I misread things).

If this is the truth, then yes, most posters here have given correct advice regarding this being grave matter. It is also grave matter to have foreplay without the intention to complete the act (for men) or in the incorrect context (for women).

You are right in that foreplay to climax outside the marital embrace is always wrong. Foreplay to climax for the woman is acceptable inside the marital embrace. The man must always climax vaginally during normal marital relations.

I was saying that foreplay NOT to climax is acceptable outside the marital embrace (with the other exceptions I mentioned, not being excessively aroused, not lusting after the other, etc.)

 

[lizziebits]

It sounded like her husband completed the act outside of the proper place (sorry if I misread things).

If this is the truth, then yes, most posters here have given correct advice regarding this being grave matter. It is also grave matter to have foreplay without the intention to complete the act (for men) or in the incorrect context (for women).

Hmm…that’s not what I picked up, but maybe I’m reading things wrong. In that case, yes, it is a grave matter.

But if not, I’m thinking that she’s ok.