Foreplay Within Marriage

[Catholic_Guy1]

Hi All! My wife and I are practicing NFP. On peak days that we abstain, we might engage in some foreplay. Sometimes it gets kind of spicy without getting into detail. Is the Church ok with this if we do not intend to have the full marital act until 2-3 days later?

Thanks for any help.

 

[redbaron162]

I wouldn’t worry about it. My wife and I are in the same boat. As long as its properly ordered to be unitize and open to life, and respects the dignity of both parties then I’m sure its fine. Some people will try to get all deeply involved but those things I just listed are the requirements the Church officially states.

 

[Lea101]

As long as its properly ordered to be unitize and open to life,

Not to ask a stupid question but how can it be open to life if they’re abstaining?

 

[Jerusha]

If it is not so intense that it results in orgasm. Kissing, massage, but not involving genitals. All increasing anticipation of the actual act, and cementing the marital bond.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Is the Church ok with this if we do not intend to have the full marital act until 2-3 days later?

If the Church wasn’t okay with it, how would you know?

You’ve probably noticed that the Church doesn’t get in between married couples when they are feeling randy. Other than a few very general things, like being open to life or acting naturally or being unitive, the rest is up to you to decide for yourself.

Something to think about is…What does ‘open to life’ mean given that NFP is approved by the Church?

 

[Lea101]

So basically anything would be fine as long as the guy does not orgasm? Would it be wrong if it’s something that makes the woman climax then, since it isn’t ‘necessary’ in being open to life?

I’m not really sure about it

 

[Jerusha]

I don’t think so, but let’s wait for an authority to chime in.

 

[TheLittleLady]

It is immoral to stimulate your spouse to the point of orgasm if you do not intend the act be completed in the way that is ordered toward procreation. Mutual masturbation is still masturbation.

 

[Vonsalza]

It’s probably “No bueno”, but I doubt the canon lawyers will weigh in on this one.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”

If you assume this includes mutual masturbation, then there’s probably an issue here for some. Also consider that the same section of the catechism this is found in also discusses the virtue of self-mastery.

As with most things sexual, if you ask your priest his answer will probably be something along the lines of “consult your conscience”.

-Cheers.

 

[Lea101]

If it’s just the woman, then? And if we go by what others are saying, that these acts are simply to build up anticipation/show intimacy till they’re in the clear to have sex, would that be okay?

 

[Lea101]

This is something I don’t really get too, that definition did not specifically said that it is one’s own stimulation of their genitals. So I guess it makes people think that any direct stimulation of the genitals is masturbation even if it’s foreplay or basically giving the woman an orgasm (since it’s not common for them to achieve it through normal intercourse)?

 

[Vonsalza]

This is something I don’t really get too, that definition did not specifically said that it is one’s own stimulation of their genitals.

The language appears to be general enough in so that it refers to any stimulation; from self or some intimate other. But no canon lawyer I.

Your reply to the other post was interesting. As a woman’s orgasm is non-procreative, does it count?

Of course, defining masturbation as mere stimulation regardless of “completion” would bypass the concern. But nonetheless - interesting.

So I guess it makes people think that any direct stimulation of the genitals is masturbation even if it’s foreplay or basically giving the woman an orgasm (since it’s not common for them to achieve it through normal intercourse)?

That certainly appears what the language suggests. But again, no canon lawyer I. If you’ve seen my recent posts on contraception, you’d nod your head enthusiastically in agreement.

 

[Lea101]

The language appears to be general enough in so that it refers to any stimulation; from self or some intimate other. But no canon lawyer I.

Your reply to the other post was interesting. As a woman’s orgasm is non-procreative, does it count

That’s the thing. It’s quite confusing, lol. Imo it seems as if it’s ‘obvious’ that masturbation refers to one’s own body. I mean if you want to be really annoying…intercourse itself stimulates the sexual organs too

If women are free to have orgasms during periods of abstaining, I guess it would make waiting a lot tolerable! Kind of annoying how women have higher sex drives when they’re fertile. God isn’t sneaky, lol. But from the countless of threads about such topics, it seems to be not be allowed.

It’s pretty hard for me to talk to anyone in real life about this without the other party dying of awkwardness

 

[thistle]

Hi All! My wife and I are practicing NFP. On peak days that we abstain, we might engage in some foreplay. Sometimes it gets kind of spicy without getting into detail. Is the Church ok with this if we do not intend to have the full marital act until 2-3 days later?

Thanks for any help.

No you can’t wait a few days. Foreplay is allowed provided that the act is completed by climax inside your wife immediately after foreplay!

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

The language appears to be general enough in so that it refers to any stimulation; from self or some intimate other. But no canon lawyer I.

Your reply to the other post was interesting. As a woman’s orgasm is non-procreative, does it count

That’s the thing. It’s quite confusing, lol. Imo it seems as if it’s ‘obvious’ that masturbation refers to one’s own body. I mean if you want to be really annoying…intercourse itself stimulates the sexual organs too

If women are free to have orgasms during periods of abstaining, I guess it would make waiting a lot tolerable! Kind of annoying how women have higher sex drives when they’re fertile. God isn’t sneaky, lol. But from the countless of threads about such topics, it seems to be not be allowed.

It’s pretty hard for me to talk to anyone in real life about this without the other party dying of awkwardness

I understand. It’s one of the benefits of the anonymity of the internet.

To the point - some might consider this an anachronistic “blind-spot” of a largely patriarchal religion.
As the “completion” of the female party typically doesn’t occur during regular intercourse, most would consider ensuring that it still otherwise occurs as a simple show of good manners - even as it may run afoul of the catechism’s stance on such behavior.

“Miserere nobis domine”, I guess.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The Catechism is nice and clear: ** 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”**

 

[1ke]

Depends on whether you fool around and stop (fine) or fool around and climax in some other way (manual/oral) without intercourse (not fine).

 

[Vonsalza]

Depends on whether you fool around and stop (fine) or fool around and climax in some other way (manual/oral) without intercourse (not fine).

So in the eyes of the Church, masturbation doesn’t “count” as such if not taken to completion?

 

[AdamP88]

As the “completion” of the female party typically doesn’t occur during regular intercourse

Then you’re not doing it right.
It is very possible for a woman to orgasm during “normal” intercourse. This idea that you have to engage in mutual masturbation for the sake of the woman’s pleasure is nonsense. John Paul II specifically deals with this in “Love and Responsibility”. You may have to find a position that orks better for that but it’s not impossible.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

As the “completion” of the female party typically doesn’t occur during regular intercourse

Then you’re not doing it right.
It is very possible for a woman to orgasm during “normal” intercourse.

Actually, for most women, this is not the case.

Fair warning - Adult Sexual Biology and Physiology Info Incoming

You see, the feminine nerve center for sexual stimulation - the clitoris - is not in the direct path of friction in typical intercourse. It’s located juuuust above that path (unlike the male nerve center, the glans, which is front-and-center).

As a result, for most women [Note: MOST, not ALL], orgasm through traditional sexual intercourse is not possible.

And I’m very prepared to cite this, if you’d like. I sorta hope it won’t be necessary.

This idea that you have to engage in mutual masturbation for the sake of the woman’s pleasure is nonsense.

Just because your wife may be capable, please please don’t assume most are.

They aren’t.

John Paul II specifically deals with this…

An August and Venerable man to whom the Church owes a great debt.

This subject is a bit outside a pope’s “lane”.