Forgiven or not?

[teachccd]

It has always been my understanding that if one was to be conscious of committing a mortal sin the he or she must confess that sin in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. That’s pretty basic and straightforward. However the Church also recognizes that one can in the same situation pray an act of perfect contrition which includes the contrition due to an almighty, infinite loving God and not out of fear of punishment. Then that person must promise to get to Confession as soon as possible. If that is done then the mortal sin is forgiven at that time. Now my question stands that since the Church still holds that the person cannot receive the Eucharist until the sacrament of Reconciliation then was that person really forgiven? One is either forgiven or not. There is no such thing as half dead and so the soul would have to be in the grace of God otherwise it is still dead and was not forgiven. So then, how is it that one can remit a mortal sin in the manner described above and yet at the same time not be able to receive the Eucharist? Is the person truly forgiven with the act of perfect contrition and the intention to go to confession or not?

 

[StTommyMore]

It has always been my understanding that if one was to be conscious of committing a mortal sin the he or she must confess that sin in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. That’s pretty basic and straightforward. However the Church also recognizes that one can in the same situation pray an act of perfect contrition which includes the contrition due to an almighty, infinite loving God and not out of fear of punishment. Then that person must promise to get to Confession as soon as possible. If that is done then the mortal sin is forgiven at that time. Now my question stands that since the Church still holds that the person cannot receive the Eucharist until the sacrament of Reconciliation then was that person really forgiven? One is either forgiven or not. There is no such thing as half dead and so the soul would have to be in the grace of God otherwise it is still dead and was not forgiven. So then, how is it that one can remit a mortal sin in the manner described above and yet at the same time not be able to receive the Eucharist? Is the person truly forgiven with the act of perfect contrition and the intention to go to confession or not?

I will have to think on this…

 

[thomas_jd]

It has always been my understanding that if one was to be conscious of committing a mortal sin the he or she must confess that sin in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. That’s pretty basic and straightforward. However the Church also recognizes that one can in the same situation pray an act of perfect contrition which includes the contrition due to an almighty, infinite loving God and not out of fear of punishment. Then that person must promise to get to Confession as soon as possible. If that is done then the mortal sin is forgiven at that time. Now my question stands that since the Church still holds that the person cannot receive the Eucharist until the sacrament of Reconciliation then was that person really forgiven? One is either forgiven or not. There is no such thing as half dead and so the soul would have to be in the grace of God otherwise it is still dead and was not forgiven. So then, how is it that one can remit a mortal sin in the manner described above and yet at the same time not be able to receive the Eucharist? Is the person truly forgiven with the act of perfect contrition and the intention to go to confession or not?

Yes the person is truly forgiven under those conditions.

 

[teachccd]

Yes the person is truly forgiven under those conditions.

Ok, then why is that person still prohibited to receive the Eucharist?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Ok, then why is that person still prohibited to receive the Eucharist?

There is what I call a dual effect in the Eucharist and Confession

In the Eucharist, we not only become one with Christ, we become one with the Church. When we sin, we damage our relationship not only with God but with the Church. And through the Sacrament of Penance, not only does it restore our relationship with God, it also restores us in the Church. So even if God forgives our sins through prayer, our relationship with the Church is still damaged by sin and only an official representative of the Church (a valid priest with valid faculties) can restore you to the Church. So you cannot become one with the Church through Communion if your relationship is damaged by mortal sin.

 

[teachccd]

There is what I call a dual effect in the Eucharist and Confession

In the Eucharist, we not only become one with Christ, we become one with the Church. When we sin, we damage our relationship not only with God but with the Church. And through the Sacrament of Penance, not only does it restore our relationship with God, it also restores us in the Church. So even if God forgives our sins through prayer, our relationship with the Church is still damaged by sin and only an official representative of the Church (a valid priest with valid faculties) can restore you to the Church. So you cannot become one with the Church through Communion if your relationship is damaged by mortal sin.

Ok. That is sound and I concur. However, if the Church includes the Church triumphant and the Church suffering, then if I were to die wouldn’t I (having been forgiven of the mortal sin) have an opportunity to join either the Church suffering or the Church triumphant? So how, on one hand can I be forgiven yet still separated from the Church and on the other hand be forgiven and have the same opportunity to either enter the beatific vision or purgatory upon my death?

I have pondered and acknowledged your reply prior to your post since I am aware of the double effect of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. But what I cannot come to terms with is that one can be restored to the graces necessary to gain heaven yet not quite enough to receive the Eucharist. It would seem to me that the intention of receiving the Sacrament of reconciliation (which is a requirement for this forgiveness) is a condition that would be implied at the moment that God forgives our sin.

I guess that I just cannot understand how we are forgiven by God and yet we cannot receive the same God in the Eucharist who removes our sins as far as the east is from the west. I would have to think that just like the Sacrament of Reconciliation this type of forgiveness would reconcile us fully given the intention of receiving the sacrament. I’m sorry that I am stuck here. Please note that I submit myself to all of the Church’s teachings and so I do refrain from the Eucharist until I receive this Sacrament of Confession. But I cannot reason this out.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and I value your reply. In your explanation, however, I still cannot find the logic. God bless you… teachccd

 

[ConstantineTG]

Ok. That is sound and I concur. However, if the Church includes the Church triumphant and the Church suffering, then if I were to die wouldn’t I (having been forgiven of the mortal sin) have an opportunity to join either the Church suffering or the Church triumphant? So how, on one hand can I be forgiven yet still separated from the Church and on the other hand be forgiven and have the same opportunity to either enter the beatific vision or purgatory upon my death?

Sounds like a cop-out answer, but thats what Purgatory is for. Its supposed to perfect us for heaven.

I have pondered and acknowledged your reply prior to your post since I am aware of the double effect of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. But what I cannot come to terms with is that one can be restored to the graces necessary to gain heaven yet not quite enough to receive the Eucharist. It would seem to me that the intention of receiving the Sacrament of reconciliation (which is a requirement for this forgiveness) is a condition that would be implied at the moment that God forgives our sin.

Well, the unworthiness to receive the Eucharist lies on the fact that you have a damanged relationship with the Church. So when you receive the Eucharist and become one with the Church, there is a lie that you are not one with the Church because of this damaged relationship, that is what made you unworthy. Remember too that the Eucharist is not a requirement to enter heaven. We receive it for the graces we need on earth as we strive on our journey back home to God. If a atheist or pagan were to convert on their deathbed and receive baptism 2 minutes before death, they would have received the graces to enter heaven even without receiving the Eucharist ever. So it is possible that we may receive forgiveness through contrite penance and prayer, and even though we are unworthy to receive the Eucharist we may still enter heaven.

I guess that I just cannot understand how we are forgiven by God and yet we cannot receive the same God in the Eucharist who removes our sins as far as the east is from the west. I would have to think that just like the Sacrament of Reconciliation this type of forgiveness would reconcile us fully given the intention of receiving the sacrament. I’m sorry that I am stuck here. Please note that I submit myself to all of the Church’s teachings and so I do refrain from the Eucharist until I receive this Sacrament of Confession. But I cannot reason this out.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut and I value your reply. In your explanation, however, I still cannot find the logic. God bless you… teachccd

Its not an easy teaching. I guess that is why many disciples left in John 6:66. Lots of prayers and lots of meditation and reading the Church teachings help us get closer to the right understanding.

 

[revert_jen]

The ordinary means for the forgiveness of sins is the sacrament of Penance. God is capable of judging whether you have achieved perfect contrition–you are not. Restricting reception of the Eucharist until after you have received the sacrament (which only requires imperfect contrition for forgiveness of mortal sin) prevents unintended sacrilege.

At least I believe this is the reason. IANACL.

–Jen

 

[teachccd]

Sounds like a cop-out answer, but thats what Purgatory is for. Its supposed to perfect us for heaven.

But isn’t the Eucharist Christ Himself? Then who can be perfect enough to receive Him here on earth? Only those who know that they are heaven bound immediately after death? I don’t this was a cop-out answer. I think that it would be a cop- out to separate the Holy of Holies from heaven itself.

Well, the unworthiness to receive the Eucharist lies on the fact that you have a damanged relationship with the Church. So when you receive the Eucharist and become one with the Church, there is a lie that you are not one with the Church because of this damaged relationship, that is what made you unworthy. Remember too that the Eucharist is not a requirement to enter heaven. We receive it for the graces we need on earth as we strive on our journey back home to God. If a atheist or pagan were to convert on their deathbed and receive baptism 2 minutes before death, they would have received the graces to enter heaven even without receiving the Eucharist ever. So it is possible that we may receive forgiveness through contrite penance and prayer, and even though we are unworthy to receive the Eucharist we may still enter heaven.

This does not pertain to my question. Yes, the thief on the cross next to Jesus was not baptized nor did he receive the Eucharist. Your last statement seems problematic. How can one who is not worthy to receive Christ in the Eucharist be worthy enough to enter heaven. Either we are not worthy in either case or we are. I believe that we are not and that is what purgatory is for. But here on earth we who are bound for purgatory can still receive the eucharist.

Its not an easy teaching. I guess that is why many disciples left in John 6:66. Lots of prayers and lots of meditation and reading the Church teachings help us get closer to the right understanding.

Like I said before, I am not like those in Jesus’ bread of life discourse. I know that Jesus has the words of eternal life. And I will follow them. I am just looking for someone who can give me a clearer understanding if there is one to be found. thank you and peace… teachccd

 

[ConstantineTG]

But isn’t the Eucharist Christ Himself? Then who can be perfect enough to receive Him here on earth? Only those who know that they are heaven bound immediately after death? I don’t this was a cop-out answer. I think that it would be a cop- out to separate the Holy of Holies from heaven itself.

That is why Christ became man, to share in our humanity. That is why we eat His flesh and drink His blood, flesh and blood are marks of humanity. Through His humanity we receive His entirety. Through His humanity, we are brought to the divine.

This does not pertain to my question. Yes, the thief on the cross next to Jesus was not baptized nor did he receive the Eucharist. Your last statement seems problematic. How can one who is not worthy to receive Christ in the Eucharist be worthy enough to enter heaven. Either we are not worthy in either case or we are. I believe that we are not and that is what purgatory is for. But here on earth we who are bound for purgatory can still receive the eucharist.

Some will say that the thief received a baptism of desire. He professed his faith in Christ but because they were hanging on the cross, it was impossible for him to get baptized the normal way. From another point of view, you can say that God’s mercy goes beyond the Sacraments. To say that salvation is limited by the Sacraments is to say that God is limited. He is not. Its in the Catechism that we do not discount the possibility that God may save those who do not receive the Sacraments at all for such is His mercy.

Remember the parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. There are those who agreed to work for the same wage from early in the morning. And there are those who late in the afternoon agree to the same wage to work. To those who come into the faith early and are baptized from Birth, we receive the same wage of heaven. And those who repent on their deathbed could also receive the same heaven. We should not be jealous or angry for we all agreed to the same wage, which is heaven.

Like I said before, I am not like those in Jesus’ bread of life discourse. I know that Jesus has the words of eternal life. And I will follow them. I am just looking for someone who can give me a clearer understanding if there is one to be found. thank you and peace… teachccd

My friend, I’m afraid I do not have much to offer you. I think that even as I try, I’ve already exceeded my limits in knowledge of our faith. Why not approach a priest and try to get more information. If only you live in my area, I already have a priest in mind. But thats why they are here, to help us understand our faith better.

 

[teachccd]

My friend, I’m afraid I do not have much to offer you. I think that even as I try, I’ve already exceeded my limits in knowledge of our faith. Why not approach a priest and try to get more information. If only you live in my area, I already have a priest in mind. But thats why they are here, to help us understand our faith better.

You have offered me alot. I thank you for your time and sincere efforts. I will direct this to a priest for further reflection. As I’ve said, I know the teachings but I just cannot piece it together. It’s like a math problem where you know the parts and the final answer but you cannot figure out the procedure. Maybe this one is all about pure submission of faith. Thank you again and may God bless you…teachccd

 

[thomas_jd]

Ok, then why is that person still prohibited to receive the Eucharist?

CCC #1456 " Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance."
God has given the authority to forgive sins to the priests. The priests forgive in Gods name.
Penance as a Sacrement requires three conditions to be met:Contrition,Confession and Penance. Contrition fuflills only one requirement.
Perfect contrition enables one to have thier sins forgiven, it does not satisfy the Sacramental requirements of Penance.
Perfect contrition (contrition of charity) is a gift from God and cannot be attained unless received as a grace. We pray to receive the Theological Virtues.

The question would always be “is my contrition “perfect” or am I lacking in my love of God.?” The Sacrement of Penance eliminates this problem and opens the door to the reception of the Eucharist.

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[FrDavid96]

It has always been my understanding that if one was to be conscious of committing a mortal sin the he or she must confess that sin in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. That’s pretty basic and straightforward. However the Church also recognizes that one can in the same situation pray an act of perfect contrition which includes the contrition due to an almighty, infinite loving God and not out of fear of punishment. Then that person must promise to get to Confession as soon as possible. If that is done then the mortal sin is forgiven at that time. Now my question stands that since the Church still holds that the person cannot receive the Eucharist until the sacrament of Reconciliation then was that person really forgiven? One is either forgiven or not. There is no such thing as half dead and so the soul would have to be in the grace of God otherwise it is still dead and was not forgiven. So then, how is it that one can remit a mortal sin in the manner described above and yet at the same time not be able to receive the Eucharist? Is the person truly forgiven with the act of perfect contrition and the intention to go to confession or not?

Try this:
It’s not a matter of being “half-forgiven” but of being “half-reconciled.” Complete reconciliation means that we have been both forgiven by God and absolved (ie restored) to the Church (the Body of Christ, etc.).

If it’s not possible for one to go to confession, then a sincere act of Contrition (and all other conditions) will allow one to receive Communion–but only if sacramental confession is impossible. For the good of souls, the Church permits (or perhaps it’s better to say “recognizes”) that one who cannot go to confession but is sincerely sorry for sin can still be admitted to Communion. In that type of situation, the sin is not entirely remitted because reconciliation to the Church, which can come only through absolution, has not yet happened.

To put this another way, a person who is not yet reconciled to the Church, not yet absolved, can still receive Communion because, and only because, the opportunity to be reconciled to the Church isn’t there. If the opportunity for Confession is there, then the person cannot receive Communion because by his own decision, he is not accepting such reconciliation.

Whether nor not one is forgiven cannot be “determined” because that’s up to God. In Confession, yes forgiveness is there because God Himself promised us that it would be. But outside of confession, we cannot say with certainty. One who cannot go to Confession is given the “benefit of the doubt” so to speak, that the contrition is sincere and that a loving, merciful God will forgive. On the other hand, absolution can be “determined” because this is a visible act of the Church.

 

[teachccd]

CCC #1456 " Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance."
God has given the authority to forgive sins to the priests. The priests forgive in Gods name.
Penance as a Sacrement requires three conditions to be met:Contrition,Confession and Penance. Contrition fuflills only one requirement.
Perfect contrition enables one to have thier sins forgiven, it does not satisfy the Sacramental requirements of Penance.
Perfect contrition (contrition of charity) is a gift from God and cannot be attained unless received as a grace. We pray to receive the Theological Virtues.

The question would always be “is my contrition “perfect” or am I lacking in my love of God.?” The Sacrement of Penance eliminates this problem and opens the door to the reception of the Eucharist.

So then the answer to my question lies in the uncertainty of the forgiveness not in the forgiveness itself. In other words, What I might deem as an act of perfect contrition may be lacking. But then I offer, how can it not be lacking? At every Mass we pray the words, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you only say the word and I shall be healed”. Within ourselves we can never be perfect. So then how can one ever pray an act of perfect contrition?

I fully understand the sacramental graces received in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. I also fully understand that, regardless of the perfection of our contrition, the words of absolution completely remit the guilt of sin. These things I know and that is why we must include as a condition of forgiveness the reception of the sacrament as soon as possible. I have no issues here.

So perhaps you answered my question in stating our uncertainty of perfect contrition. So then, one would have to admit that if one were to commit a mortal sin, plead for God’s mercy, pray out their love for God, and resolve to get to confession but fail to get there before they die, they can end up in hell. Because not being able to receive the Eucharist is a statement that one is not fully reconciled with God. So what I just stated could be a possibility. Is that the unconditional love of God?

 

[FrDavid96]

So then the answer to my question lies in the uncertainty of the forgiveness not in the forgiveness itself. In other words, What I might deem as an act of perfect contrition may be lacking. But then I offer, how can it not be lacking? At every Mass we pray the words, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you only say the word and I shall be healed”. Within ourselves we can never be perfect. So then how can one ever pray an act of perfect contrition?

…

Part of the problem here is the term “perfect contrition” which is a phrase used by the Church, but it can be a bit misleading. “Perfect contrition” is not the same thing as “contrition which is perfect” because as human beings, nothing we do can ever be literally perfect. We use the adjective “perfect” in a poetic sense, not a literal one.

 

[blackrobe]

Part of the problem here is the term “perfect contrition” which is a phrase used by the Church, but it can be a bit misleading. “Perfect contrition” is not the same thing as “contrition which is perfect” because as human beings, nothing we do can ever be literally perfect. We use the adjective “perfect” in a poetic sense, not a literal one.

I concur. We cannot have certainty that our contrition is 100% for love of God and not tainted by fear of punishment. As an analogy, consider the requirement of being free from attachment to sin to obtain a plenary indulgence. Or for that matter the fact that one can never know with certainty in this life that one is saved. These are all aspects of the mystery that is Faith.

AMDG
jsa

 

[thomas_jd]

So then the answer to my question lies in the uncertainty of the forgiveness not in the forgiveness itself. In other words, What I might deem as an act of perfect contrition may be lacking. But then I offer, how can it not be lacking? At every Mass we pray the words, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you only say the word and I shall be healed”. Within ourselves we can never be perfect. So then how can one ever pray an act of perfect contrition?

I fully understand the sacramental graces received in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. I also fully understand that, regardless of the perfection of our contrition, the words of absolution completely remit the guilt of sin. These things I know and that is why we must include as a condition of forgiveness the reception of the sacrament as soon as possible. I have no issues here.

So perhaps you answered my question in stating our uncertainty of perfect contrition. So then, one would have to admit that if one were to commit a mortal sin, plead for God’s mercy, pray out their love for God, and resolve to get to confession but fail to get there before they die, they can end up in hell. Because not being able to receive the Eucharist is a statement that one is not fully reconciled with God. So what I just stated could be a possibility. Is that the unconditional love of God?

Perfect contrition can be attained thru God. He is all powerful!
You are attempting to definite a particular action, by a (name removed by moderator)erfect creature, as perfect.
Only God can quailfy that as perfect, and that is done by a infusion of Divine Grace.

If one would plead for Gods mercy, pray out loud their love for God, and resolve to go to confession, there would be no need for the Sacrement of Penance, no need for the authority that was handed down by Christ,etc. It would need a “perfect act of contrition” to eliminate the possibility of avoidance of hell. This is not something I am comfortable with for the various previously stated reasons.

The unconditional Love of God is possible thru the gift of free will. The gates of Heaven are open to all, just remember not to show up with a mortal sin on your soul.

 

[teachccd]

I thank all of you who responded. It definitely gives me more to think about. I’m off to my weekly confession tomorrow so I do understand the importance of the Sacrament. I just had a slight bump in my road of understanding with saying an act of perfect contrition and the Eucharist. May the peace of Christ be with you guys…teachccd

 

[smad0142]

The person is forgiven if they die. An Act of Contrition only replaces Confession when in danger of death. If the person does not actually die, than a situation did not exist in which an Act would replace Confession.

 

[mikehullhull]

St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians that we should examine ourselves before recieving the Lords supper and should not recieve Him in an unworthy manner. We need to examine our souls before confessing sins to a priest and recieving absolution. It stands to reason that recieving the Sacraramental grace of the Eucharist requires Sacramental examination of conscience and subsequent penance.
Are you forgiven through the act of contrition? Yes. Are you recieving the Lord in a worthy manner without the Sacrament of Penance? No.
God bless