Forgiveness and Punishment

[Verum1980]

If I accept Christ and His forgiveness and confess my sins at Confession, will God still punish me for those sins that He has forgiven? (After all, a parent can both punish and forgive.) And if He does punish, will he do it here on earth or after I die, or both?

 

[convert31894]

That’s what Purgatory’s for. Although God’s Mercy does not desire our punishment there, or by purification on Earth, His Perfect Justice demands it. Exactly as you said, parents both forgive and punish their children. That’s exactly what God does. Through indulgences on Earth, we can shorten our time in Purgatory, and even purify our souls completely so we can attain Heaven immediately after death. So yes, punishment takes place on Earth and in Purgatory (and in Hell for the unrepentant). Therefore, go to Reconciliation, and obtain forgiveness, and bear your punishment with joy, knowing the heavenly reward that awaits you. Always remember, never despair in the mercy of God.

 

[Verum1980]

What kind of indulgences can help me earn Heaven? Do you mean fasting or tithing, or doing kind things for other people?

 

[ChibiViolet]

What kind of indulgences can help me earn Heaven? Do you mean fasting or tithing, or doing kind things for other people?

Get a Brown Scalpular, have it blessed with the proper blessing by a priest. Worn devoutly this will greatly minimize your time in Purgatory (assuming that’s where you go when you die.) In order to get the benefits of it, you have to live chastly for your state in life (single, married, religous or priest,) and either pray the Rosary every day, pray the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary every day, abstain from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays or, with permission from a priest, some other form of prayer, fasting or good deed.

Also, it’s important to note that wearing it and just sinning (mortally) as you please and not going to Confession will not help you avoid Hell (which is another one of the promises.)

 

[convert31894]

Any of those things are great indulgences. Purgatory is a difficult topic to discuss. We should appreciate it in the sense that without its existence, Hell would be the only other alternative. Yet, we should strive to purify ourselves completely on Earth, because we should desire to be united with God as soon as possible. Therefore, take advantage of the indulgences you’re able to recieve on Earth. They will help in the long run

 

[Verum1980]

Get a Brown Scalpular, have it blessed with the proper blessing by a priest. Worn devoutly this will greatly minimize your time in Purgatory (assuming that’s where you go when you die.) In order to get the benefits of it, you have to live chastly for your state in life (single, married, religous or priest,) and either pray the Rosary every day, pray the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary every day, abstain from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays or, with permission from a priest, some other form of prayer, fasting or good deed.

I have never heard of a Brown Scalpular. If there is something such as this that can save us so much suffering after we die, why wouldn’t it be more popular? So, the only mandatory act you must do when you where it, is live chastely in addition to one of the other works?

 

[convert31894]

It’s not as popular because it carries the task of living a holy life with it. The only difference in living in God’s grace and living in God’s grace with a Brown Scapular is that the Scapular contains special graces that maintain God’s grace within you. Many people expected to attain salvation simply by wearing the Brown Scapular and not having to do anything else. When they realized the Holy conditions that came along with it, they abandoned it. That wonderful gift from Our Lady should indeed be more popular. So many more souls would be saved.

 

[Verum1980]

This is where I get lost. If God forgave me, why would he punish me here, then in Purgatory plus the punishment that I do to myself, in hopes to lessen my time in Purgatory? Doesn’t St. Paul talk to the Romans about being justified through faith and not justified through works? I thought he meant once Jesus died for us, we were forgiven. Indulgences sound like works. But, maybe I am reading it wrong.

 

[atheistgirl]

This is where I get lost. If God forgave me, why would he punish me here, then in Purgatory plus the punishment that I do to myself, in hopes to lessen my time in Purgatory?

Isn’t this about restitution?

In other words, you can be forgiven, but you still have to make up for the wrongs you’ve committed.

So rather than thinking of it as punishment, think of it as making restitution for the wrongs done.

If you wrong me, I may forgive you. We can hug, and I can tell you all is well, and that I still love you as my friend.

However, there’s still the small matter of you having to make good the wrong you just did me - let’s say that was defrauding me $15000.

So, I hug you, tell you I love you, tell you we’re all good, but you still got to wash my trucks every week for the next 3 years to pay back the $15000

The less wrong you do, the less restitution you got to make good on

Sarah x

 

[Julia_Mae]

That’s what Purgatory’s for. Although God’s Mercy does not desire our punishment there, or by purification on Earth, His Perfect Justice demands it. Exactly as you said, parents both forgive and punish their children. That’s exactly what God does. Through indulgences on Earth, we can shorten our time in Purgatory, and even purify our souls completely so we can attain Heaven immediately after death. So yes, punishment takes place on Earth and in Purgatory (and in Hell for the unrepentant). Therefore, go to Reconciliation, and obtain forgiveness, and bear your punishment with joy, knowing the heavenly reward that awaits you. Always remember, never despair in the mercy of God.

You have any reference fort this? It’s not any Catholic theology I ever read. Once you have received absolution, that’s it -* you are absolved*. The priest may assign penance. That’s the so-called “punishment.”

Purgatory is a place of purification, for that which we have not had absolved in life. ** No one is getting “punished” for sins they have confessed. **

 

[Verum1980]

In other words, you can be forgiven, but you still have to make up for the wrongs you’ve committed.

 

[atheistgirl]

Isn’t that what we mean when we say “He has paid our price by dying for us on the cross”?

My understanding is by doing so, the way was open for all to receive a heavenly reward.

However, there is still the inconvenient matter of making restitution, making good on the wrongs done.

That was my understanding, and I could be miles off track.

I understood it all to mean, ask for forgiveness and genuinely repent, and you’re forgiven. This forgiveness means the way is clear for you to get to heaven. However, before you can do so, you still have to make up for the wrongs done.

You’ve been forgiven. The sins are washed away.

But you still have to make restitution.

Just like the $15000.

You don’t have that kinda money. But you defrauded me of it. I’ve forgiven you. We’re friends again. I welcome you into my home and share my food with you.

BUT, you’re still going to clean my trucks for the next three years to make good on the $15000.

That’s your purgatory.

Sarah x

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

You have any reference fort this? It’s not any Catholic theology I ever read. Once you have received absolution, that’s it -* you are absolved*. The priest may assign penance. That’s the so-called “punishment.”

Purgatory is a place of purification, for that which we have not had absolved in life. ** No one is getting “punished” for sins they have confessed. **

I believe what’s being referred to is the temporal punishment due to sin even after it’s absolved. This is in multiple catechisms. Yes, absolution remits the eternal punishment (keeps you from going to hell), but there is still the temporal punishment that needs to be made up for. It can either be done here on earth while we’re alive, or in purgatory. Note, it’s much worse in purgatory, so one should strive to make up for everything while alive.

The purification part of purgatory is also to remove any and all defects and imperfections from us in order for us to be in the presence of God.

 

[PJM]

=Verum1980;10238173]If I accept Christ and His forgiveness and confess my sins at Confession, will God still punish me for those sins that He has forgiven? (After all, a parent can both punish and forgive.) And if He does punish, will he do it here on earth or after I die, or both?

Hmmmm,

Nor for the sins precisely. Once forgiven they are FORGOTTEN by God.

BUT: sins have a public aspect to them. Meaning that sin effects those around us and the Church itself. Their is someting termed “temporal punishment for sins” that absoutely require a “pay-back”. In an absoulete sense our Souls MUST be made perfect in oder to be granted access to God Presence: “The Beatific Vision”

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

THIS IS THE PRECISE REASON GOD CREATED PURGATORY; so even after death so long as we have NO unconfessed or unforgiven Mortal sins on pour souls.

God who loves us even prmtis payabck to hppen while we live. Prayers, charity, sacrifieces all work towards repaying these debts. The PROBLEM is that ONLY God knows 1. the amont of temporal punishment we have and the amount og “payback” He credits to us through these good works.

In giving the Key’s to heaven to Peter [Popes]; God grants them a GREAT deal of authority. READ Mt. 16:19 and John 20:21-23**. So the Church is empowered to assist us and to encourage us while here on earth to “payback” all that We OWE to God.

Indulgences are have this is accomplished. They take two forms
SEE this site for details: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm.

Their are “partial” payback and Complete payback [Plenary Indulgences] available to us CONDITIONALLY. It is a wise and prudent Catholic who learns about these GIFTS from the Church and accepted by God.

Thanks for asking,

pat/PJM

 

[Verum1980]

Hmmmm,

Nor for the sins precisely. Once forgiven they are FORGOTTEN by God.

BUT: sins have a public aspect to them. Meaning that sin effects those around us and the Church itself. Their is someting termed “temporal punishment for sins” that absoutely require a “pay-back”. In an absoulete sense our Souls MUST be made perfect in oder to be granted access to God Presence: “The Beatific Vision”

pat/PJM

So, God forgives and forgets my sins but the Church won’t? Why am I going to suffer in Purgatory if God has forgotten the sin that I am suffering for? Who am I “paying back”?

 

[clem456]

So, God forgives and forgets my sins but the Church won’t? Why am I going to suffer in Purgatory if God has forgotten the sin that I am suffering for? Who am I “paying back”?

No, the Church does not forgive siins outside of Christ. Ultimately, it is Christ’s power to forgive sins.
Just because you are forgiven doesn’t mean that YOU are completely conformed to God.
Using common sense examples, if you are elected to the senate, you don’t just walk in the first day and sit in leadership of committees etc…

Gaining entrance to a music school doesn’t make you a finished product.

Purgatory can be looked on with anticipation, as a positive process drawing us closer to the beatific vision.

 

[Verum1980]

My understanding is by doing so, the way was open for all to receive a heavenly reward.

However, there is still the inconvenient matter of making restitution, making good on the wrongs done.

I understood it all to mean, ask for forgiveness and genuinely repent, and you’re forgiven. This forgiveness means the way is clear for you to get to heaven. However, before you can do so, you still have to make up for the wrongs done.

You’ve been forgiven. The sins are washed away.

But you still have to make restitution.

Just like the $15000.

You don’t have that kinda money. But you defrauded me of it. I’ve forgiven you. We’re friends again. I welcome you into my home and share my food with you.

BUT, you’re still going to clean my trucks for the next three years to make good on the $15000.

That’s your purgatory.

Sarah x

I understand the Justice of your point. I mean if I stole $15,000 from you, the court would order me to pay it pack to you. That is just. Your forgiveness does me no service though. It is a kind act but really, I still have the burden of paying you back. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful to Christ for opening the gates of Heaven to us. But, it just seems like less of a gift when you say “I forgive you, BUT…”

 

[atheistgirl]

So, God forgives and forgets my sins but the Church won’t? Why am I going to suffer in Purgatory if God has forgotten the sin that I am suffering for? Who am I “paying back”?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

I understand the Justice of your point. I mean if I stole $15,000 from you, the court would order me to pay it pack to you. That is just. Your forgiveness does me no service though. It is a kind act but really, I still have the burden of paying you back. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful to Christ for opening the gates of Heaven to us. But, it just seems like less of a gift when you say “I forgive you, BUT…”

Isn’t Jesus merciful and just?

So, the merciful bit - you get forgiven, and the gates of heaven open for you.

But that would be just letting you do what the heck you liked, get forgiven, and have a free pass to heaven.

That wouldn’t be just.

Jesus is Just.

So, while you’re forgiven, the merciful part, the justice part demands satisfaction, otherwise it would be mercy, without justice.

So, you have to make up for the ‘‘effects’’ of those sins for which you have been forgiven.

This is done here on earth through good works, sacrifice, indulgences, and in purgatory if necessary.

Ok, so I’m disobedient to my parents, I steal my brothers football, and I break a neighbors window with it.

The ‘‘sin’’ is the disobedience and theft. My parents forgive me for the ‘‘sin’’. In other words, there will be no punishment for the fact I disobeyed them, and stole my brothers football.

BUT - there is still a justice to be satisfied, that is, the effect on others, of the sins for which I’ve just been forgiven. So, my parents stop my allowance for a month to pay for a new window for the neighbor. And I have to apologize to my brother, and take his turn washing the dishes for a week.

Once justice has been satisfied, you’re good to go

Now, that is my understanding from everything I’ve read.

You must read everything I write with that little voice in the back of your head saying: Sheesh, she’s an atheist, what does she know huh?



Do NOT take instruction or clarification of the Catholic faith from ME!!!

I’m just sharing with you my understanding of the topic, having looked into it myself out of interest.

Sarah x

 

[Verum1980]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The punishments of sin

1472 … On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures…

1473…He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85

Sarah x

1472- Can someone explain that?

1473- Isn’t this what St. Paul was writing to the Romans about? Justification through works/faith? Please tell me how I am not reading it right.