Forgiveness and Punishment

[Verum1980]

Isn’t Jesus merciful and just?

Sarah x

Yes. My understanding was that His perfect Justice demanded that we all go to Hell because none of us could ever deserve to live in His presence. But, He loved us too much so He had mercy and sent His son to experience the Justice that was intended for us. When Jesus was on the cross and said, “Father, why hast thou forsaken me?”, Jesus was being tormented by the absence of His Father-the punishment we were meant to suffer. So, I thought the Just part of God was satisfied when Jesus suffered in our place. I thought that was the whole point.

 

[clem456]

Yes. My understanding was that His perfect Justice demanded that we all go to Hell because none of us could ever deserve to live in His presence. But, He loved us too much so He had mercy and sent His son to experience the Justice that was intended for us. When Jesus was on the cross and said, “Father, why hast thou forsaken me?”, Jesus was being tormented by the absence of His Father-the punishment we were meant to suffer. So, I thought the Just part of God was satisfied when Jesus suffered in our place. I thought that was the whole point.

God is perfectly just and merciful. Perfect in every way.
We are not. He provides us with salvation from sin…the invitation to the party if you will…
But we still have a journey to take. It’s a process not a trophy. Hence purgatory.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

atheistgirl;10240773
Isn’t Jesus merciful and just?

So, the merciful bit - you get forgiven, and the gates of heaven open for you.

But that would be just letting you do what the heck you liked, get forgiven, and have a free pass to heaven.

That wouldn’t be just.

Jesus is Just.

So, while you’re forgiven, the merciful part, the justice part demands satisfaction, otherwise it would be mercy, without justice.

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, this would have been the greatest way he could respond to each and every situation in his life. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself, Judas who betrayed him, the soldiers who crowned him with thorns and nailed him to the cross? Jesus the Son of God was in a position to demand justice for these actions

But it seems that nothing, and no one should stand in the way of Jesus living by the greatest commandments, and we know that he prayed on the cross, ‘ forgive them Father’
It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that
he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. If Jesus can forgive the people who had him killed, then it should give us hope that we can be forgiven also. What kind of a burden do we place on Jesus with our sins?

After his resurrection does the divine nature of Jesus, follow his human nature? When Jesus ascended into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each and every one of us as he loves himself?

John 15 – As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you.

Just some rambling words from a Catholic, although not found in any Catholic teachings

Blessings, and thanks for posting,

Eric

 

[PJM]

=Verum1980;10240674]So, God forgives and forgets my sins but the Church won’t? Why am I going to suffer in Purgatory if God has forgotten the sin that I am suffering for? Who am I “paying back”?

GOSH I HOPE YOUR KIDDING

It is God dear friend that COMMANDS and DEMANDS payback for the temporal punishment due to OUR sins. The Church ONLY attempts to, and makes it MORE easy to “payback this debt.”

Is it now more clear to you?

God Bless,
Pat/PJM

 

[Verum1980]

GOSH I HOPE YOUR KIDDING

It is God dear friend that COMMANDS and DEMANDS payback for the temporal punishment due to OUR sins. The Church ONLY attempts to, and makes it MORE easy to “payback this debt.”

Is it now more clear to you?

God Bless,
Pat/PJM

Unfortunately, I am not kidding. I think you are saying that the Church is making it easier for us to payback this debt by giving us penances and other indulgences to help us shorten our time in Purgatory. Am I understanding you correctly? If that is not what you meant, please try explaining one more time. And could you add how all these indulgences and works of charity that I am doing to shorten my time in Purgatory are different than the works that St. Paul talks to the Romans about?

 

[mariacamille]

For every action (sin) there is a reaction (punishment).

Now, God can forgive our sins…but we still owe him a debt. Just like the parallels with the $15000, and with the kid breaking a window…His Perfect Justice demands that we pay our debt.

That’d be pretty selfish of us to do WHATEVER we want…hurt someone we love, EXPECT complete and utter forgiveness…then do nothing to mend the hurt we caused. That’s now how the secular world works and it’s certainly not how the spiritual world works either.

YES, doing good works will help us get to Heaven…but they are not the only way.

YES, Jesus died on the cross to forgive our sins and redeem us…

But just because Jesus redeemed us doesn’t mean we accept that redemption (thus, why some people still go to hell) or do everything in our power to get to Heaven. YOU are still responsible for YOUR Soul. If you didn’t do enough on Earth…then there is still Purgatory. You’ll still eventually get to Heaven, sure…but it’s that final stop to repay your debt.

 

[PJM]

=Verum1980;10246379]Unfortunately, I am not kidding. I think you are saying that the Church is making it easier for us to payback this debt by giving us penances and other indulgences to help us shorten our time in Purgatory. Am I understanding you correctly? If that is not what you meant, please try explaining one more time. And could you add how all these indulgences and works of charity that I am doing to shorten my time in Purgatory are different than the works that St. Paul talks to the Romans about?

Yes to the first part:thumbsup:

The differences are that indulgences require very specific and precise responces. Paul speaks in broad terms of charity. Absolutely neccessary for our salvation eforts.

Temporal Punishment can be reduced by charity; but Indulgences are often prayers or adoration or Bible reading for a set time ect. The acts are specified and all of the conditions must be completed.

Does this clarify it for you?

pat/PJM

 

[Genesis315]

1472- Can someone explain that?

Every time you commit any sin, even a venial sin, you are putting something else (ie a created thing) above God.

1473- Isn’t this what St. Paul was writing to the Romans about? Justification through works/faith? Please tell me how I am not reading it right.

This passage is not about justification, but about seeking with the help of grace to be perfect as Our Father is perfect, as Jesus commands.

 

[PJM]

=Genesis315;10248963]Every time you commit any sin, even a venial sin, you are putting something else (ie a created thing) above God.

This passage is not about justification, but about seeking with the help of grace to be perfect as Our Father is perfect, as Jesus commands.

Romans is a large Teaching. Can you provide a few pasages and then I will gladly explain their meaning.

 

[Malachias111]

A really good page on Purgatory. Lays it all out so it makes sense. fisheaters.com/purgatory.html

 

[St_Hilary]

If I accept Christ and His forgiveness and confess my sins at Confession, will God still punish me for those sins that He has forgiven? (After all, a parent can both punish and forgive.) And if He does punish, will he do it here on earth or after I die, or both?

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When you ogo to confession, your guilt is taken away; however, your punishment due to the sins are hnot forgiven unless you receive a Plenary Indulgence. When we die, this is why we go to Purgatory, to have our punishments for our sins to be cleansed

 

[Verum1980]

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When you ogo to confession, your guilt is taken away; however, your punishment due to the sins are hnot forgiven unless you receive a Plenary Indulgence. When we die, this is why we go to Purgatory, to have our punishments for our sins to be cleansed

Sorry if I sound like I am beating a dead horse but that is exactly what I don’t understand. Your guilt is taken away. So that makes you innocent? If you are not guilty, you are innocent. Why would an innocent man be punished?

 

[pablope]

So, God forgives and forgets my sins but the Church won’t? Why am I going to suffer in Purgatory if God has forgotten the sin that I am suffering for? Who am I “paying back”?

Timeout…you have a lot of misconceptions.

Purgatory…it is not about punishment…it is about cleansing.

Please read this and understand purgatory…catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

This one too…acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2006/08/catechism-on-suffering-by-st-john.html

 

[PJM]

=Verum1980;10275638]Sorry if I sound like I am beating a dead horse but that is exactly what I don’t understand. Your guilt is taken away. So that makes you innocent? If you are not guilty, you are innocent. Why would an innocent man be punished?

Might I interject a thought or two?

Perhaps a more clear explaination is this.

In the Sacrament of Confession [which BTW] is the only manner commanded and mandated by God Himself: John 20:16-23; **our SINS are forgiven. Therefore one no longer needs to feel guilty about them. What “is done; is Done!” Amen

However every sin has a “public nature”; meaning a manner that effects others besides ourselves. In effect, “wronging others.” So even though the sin is forgiven and forgotten by God who is Perfect and Just; there remains this “due-back /payback” effect of our sins which too must accounted for to satisfy God Divine Justice.

Consider these sins for example; abortion, slanger, gossip, lying, theft, adultry, greed, envey, anger, Missingg Mass on purposer and on and on and on.

Others who have directly or even indirectly been hurt by our sinful actions are DUE recompense. Very often for many reasons this “payback” is not reasonalbly possible. Causing our debt to continue to exist.

**So the Church; empowered by God **[Mt.10:1-2, Mt.15:18-19, Jn. 20:19, Mt. 28:18-19] has put forth a manner of payack acceptable to God. [Mt. 15:18-19]

All of our charity, all of our prayers and pious works are like checks written to our persoanl payback account. There is however a HUGE potential problem with this system.

Only God knows HOW MUCH payback is due; and Only God knoes how much He is writting “the payback check” for. Therefore we are left hoping that what we do and have done to repay is sufficient?

BUT THEN; following Christ example of the “Good theif”; TODAY you WILL be with Me in paradise, the church gives Herself a warranty and sacrifice through the OFFER if Indulgences, of which there are partial payback and complete [Plenary] payback types.

Indulgences are options for us to avail ourselfs of using th Good Graces and merits of the Cchurch itself. They are conditional nd precise in what they require; which is far to complicated to detail here.

What we need to understand are:

1. The true and complete nature of sin
2. The “temporal punishment” all sin incures [payback due]
3. And understand the means and options for ALL of us to KNOW payback is made

I hope this clarifies the issue a bit for you? If not please ask me more questions.

God Bless,
pat/PJM