Forgiveness FAQ

[Socrates4Jesus]

… “When you stand to pray, forgive anyone against whom you have a grievance, so that your heavenly Father may in turn forgive you your transgressions.”

How can you reconcile this with not forgiving those who do not repent? If you believe that you should not forgive someone who does not repent, then you are allowing someone else to prevent you from receiving the gift of forgiveness from your Father.

It doesn’t say here, forgive those who have repented but don’t forgive those who have not. It says “forgive anyone whom you have a grievance against”.

Either your interpretation is incorrect, or the Word of God is contradicting Himself.

Chuck:

Jesus also does not say in the passage that you quoted that we should forgive those who refuse to repent. I do not see how God would hold it against me if i did not forgive someone whom He Himself refused to forgive.

A better interpretation of the passage you quoted is that Jesus is saying that if i fail to forgive someone whom i am certain has repented, then God will not forgive me. I should treat others the way i myself want to be treated. I should forgive others the way i myself want to be forgiven. Not arbitrarily, but only when i sincerely turn from my sin and back to Him.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Perhaps this will help. Do you think that God forgives you “because” you repent? Or has He already forgiven you and your repentance is simply the acceptance of that free gift? Chuck

That is actually an extremely deep question, Chuck. Some believe that God forgives at the moment a person repents and puts his faith in Him, and that this existing in a state of grace never ends from that day forward. Others believe that God forgives day by day, and that one might fall out of the state of grace at any moment. I believe many people who hold either view consider repentance a condition to receiving God’s forgiveness and the gift of eternal life.

I’m not sure where i stand on the issue, but i do believe that repentance is a requirement to receive God’s forgiveness, yes. By his mercy (unconditionally) God offers forgiveness to me, for mercy (my dictionary tells me) is being ready to forgive. By repentance (conditionally) i receive His gift of being pardoned for my sins, for pardoning someone and cancelling his debt (my dictionary also tells me) is what forgiveness is.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

So I’ve been following the thread closely even in my “absence” and I’ve noticed that there are a couple of passages that keep getting overlooked. So I’d like to throw a few of these into the mix.

The first is a possible example of where Jesus forgave without requiring repentance. Its told in 3 of the 4 gospels, and its the story of Jesus healing the Paralytic Man. It’s found in Matthew 9:1-8, Mark 2:1-12, and Luke 5:17-26. For the sake of simplicity, I’m only going to quote one:

Quote:17One day as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law, who had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem, were sitting there. And the power of the Lord was present for him to heal the sick. 18Some men came carrying a paralytic on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus. 19When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus. 20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.” 21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 22Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, “Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? 23Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 24But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” He said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 25Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God. 26Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, “We have seen remarkable things today.” Now, Socrates, I’d be interested to know where it says here that the man repented. If Jesus gave ANY reason for forgiving his sins, it was that his Friends had Faith. …

Doctor, good to see your thoughts again!

What you are doing is making a common logical error. It is called an argument from ignorance, or argumentum ad ignorantiam for the Latin savvy among us. You regard the lack of evidence for one view as constituting evidence or proof that another view is true. This is fallacious reasoning. You may read about it here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

I could commit the same logical fallacy and say that because it does not say that he refused to repent, then he must have repented. The truth is, neither of us know whether or not the man repented before Jesus forgave him. The passage does not say that he did nor does it say he did not repent.

I will be interested to see if you do find an example of Jesus (or anyone) forgiving someone who said he would not stop sinning.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jane did not say it was an example of forgiving someone who refuses to repent. Nor did she imply a belief that the woman returned to a life of prostitution. For you to then charge her with ignorance is uncharitable and insulting. …

My apologies for not being careful with my words, YYMom. Argument from ignorance is a term philosophers and theologians use to describe a certain logical error. I was not saying Jane was ignorant; i was merely saying she made the mistake of committing a logical fallacy. You may read about what an argument from ignorance is here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc -

IMHO I dont think there is much more for me to contribute other than to say that you need to follow your heart in what God leads to do. Love is the standard by which we will be judged, not reason.
You continue to ignore the difference between God the Father and God the Son in your quest to forgive “as the Father forgives”. Your “dialogue” with Jesus is all in your head - nowhere does forgiving another person preclude you from simultaneously acting to move that person to repentance. That is a barrier of your own construction. The false dichotomy of “if I forgive unconditionally I encourage sinful behavior” is, ultimately, a fabrication of your own making. Lastly, you cannot ever make someone repent - that is the work of the holy Spirit.

Phil:

Have you asked Jesus what He meant, yet? If so, please tell me what the Holy Spirit revealed to you.

Are you not now doubly ashamed, Phil? For you are not only saying that the Father requires the Son to not follow His example. You are also accusing the Son of deception! Please, Phil, stop thinking about what you are going to say next and listen to the Son’s words:

Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.”
(John 5:19)

Please ask the Son what He meant when He said, “Whatever the Father does the Son also does.” Ask Him if whatever includes the way He forgives.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I do not know the nature of all of this woman’s prior sins nor do I know whether or not she ever sinned again. I do not know whether or not she repented prior to her forgiveness. And neither do you.

Fair enough, sweet Jane! I cannot say for certain the woman in Luke, chapter 7 repented of her sin; you cannot say for certain she did not. Our God and Savior does make an interesting remark to her, however:

Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

(Luke 7:50)

Tell me, sweet Jane, do you believe saving faith is possible without repentance?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… God doesn’t laugh at us in our ignorance and pride. He does not mock us in our sin. …

I laugh with my son not at him, Jane. I love my son.

 

[JaneFrances]

Doctor, good to see your thoughts again!

What you are doing is making a common logical error. It is called an argument from ignorance, or argumentum ad ignorantiam for the Latin savvy among us. You regard the lack of evidence for one view as constituting evidence or proof that another view is true. This is fallacious reasoning. You may read about it here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

I could commit the same logical fallacy and say that because it does not say that he refused to repent, then he must have repented. The truth is, neither of us know whether or not the man repented before Jesus forgave him. The passage does not say that he did nor does it say he did not repent.

I will be interested to see if you do find an example of Jesus (or anyone) forgiving someone who said he would not stop sinning.

This is an interesting arguement of particulars you are formulating.

First, you contended that one must be repentant and/or ignorant in order to warrant forgiveness from another person, which you believe is the most accurate imitation of Christ. You cite two Scriptures, one which specifically states that one must forgive another who has repented and the other which exemplifies Christ forgiving seemingly unrepentant sinners who “knew not what they did.” These you hold as the conditions which you expect to be met before you forgive and challenge those opposing your viewpoint to find a Scripture which offers another condition and/or no condition at all.

Several Scriptural scenarios have been offered which do not fit your theological rubric. For example, the woman forgiven for her love. Or in another instance, the paralytic forgiven on account of the faith of his friends.

Now, asserting that these examples are not admissable because they speak from silence, you alter the original challenge. Now you want Scriptural examples which prove that Christ forgives someone who says “he would not stop sinning.”

This is absurd and far beyond the scope of your original arguement which, in any case, you have not been able to substantiate absolutely.

You forget, perhaps too, that Christ the Lord is God Himself. By the Spirit, he searches man’s hearts and knows their innermost thoughts, thus He alone is able to forgive based on absolute knowledge of contrition and culpability. You can not.

We, not being God, limited in our knowledge and wisdom are challenged to forgive, by grace, out of Chrisitian charity. Are you required by law to do this? No. It is out of love. Forgiveness, as an act of charity, is a movement of grace within you which you, then, can freely choose to generously distribute among others. If you do not have this gift, you need only ask for it and it will be given to you.

 

[DrPiano]

Doctor, good to see your thoughts again!

What you are doing is making a common logical error. It is called an argument from ignorance, or argumentum ad ignorantiam for the Latin savvy among us. You regard the lack of evidence for one view as constituting evidence or proof that another view is true. This is fallacious reasoning. You may read about it here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

I could commit the same logical fallacy and say that because it does not say that he refused to repent, then he must have repented. The truth is, neither of us know whether or not the man repented before Jesus forgave him. The passage does not say that he did nor does it say he did not repent.

I will be interested to see if you do find an example of Jesus (or anyone) forgiving someone who said he would not stop sinning.

I never said that he refused to repent. I simply said that the conditions Jesus gave here, if there were any, were the faith of his friends. I agree with the others here - the verse you consistently cite (If your brother repents, forgive him) is telling ME the forgiver of a condition I must fulfill as I forgive (If someone repents I MUST forgive him). However, what many of us are arguing is that with the same measure we forgive we will be forgiven. The greater the mercy and forgiveness we show is, the more mercy and forgiveness we will be shown by our heavenly father. We would simply rather err on the side of mercy than find ourselves trying to justify a less merciful stance before God.

Again - I’d like to hold out Mark 11:22-25 for comment (I quoted it last time, others have quoted it):

22"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. 23"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

I’d like to point out that we are STILL operating under different definitions of forgiveness and mercy. Few (if any) of us are willing to accept your definition of forgiveness and you are not willing to accept ours. So I’m not really sure that there CAN be a productive conversation here.

I will be reading (and praying) as usual. May you find the Truth

 

[JaneFrances]

Fair enough, sweet Jane! I cannot say for certain the woman in Luke, chapter 7 repented of her sin; you cannot say for certain she did not. Our God and Savior does make an interesting remark to her, however:

Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

(Luke 7:50)

Tell me, sweet Jane, do you believe saving faith is possible without repentance?

Interesting side step. I can not respond as I understand the term “saving faith” can mean a number of different things within various faith traditions.

Suffice it to say, I believe that Christ’s love and forgiveness, as examplified by Jesus in his parable of the moneylender (Luke 7), can be transformative and move a previously unrepentant soul or a soul in a state of imperfect contrition.

I do not believe that you and I are capable of absolute judgement, so, as your friend likes to quote: “It is better to err on the side of grace.” Grace, of course, being a gift freely given.

 

[JaneFrances]

I laugh with my son not at him, Jane. I love my son.

To be sure, we have several sons and I know very well the love for sons.

However, I was referring to the characterization you offered in your ficticious dialogue–the one in which the son was being deceptive, manipulative, and demanding and the character, Soc, laughed at him in his folly:

Son: Well, you said that if i do my chores i will get my allowance. But you did not say that if i do not do my chores i will not get my allowance. So give me my allowance!

Soc: (Laughing) Cleaver, but no, i’m not falling for it!

I do not believe this, as you have offered it, is an accurate parallel to God’s interaction with us and such was my meaning.

I do not doubt your love for you son. Even so, I know that though a mother forget her child, God will never abandon us. And even as a father finds amusement in his son’s sin, God will not laugh.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This is an interesting arguement of particulars you are formulating.

First, you contended that one must be repentant and/or ignorant in order to warrant forgiveness from another person, which you believe is the most accurate imitation of Christ. You cite two Scriptures, one which specifically states that one must forgive another who has repented and the other which exemplifies Christ forgiving seemingly unrepentant sinners who “knew not what they did.” These you hold as the conditions which you expect to be met before you forgive and challenge those opposing your viewpoint to find a Scripture which offers another condition and/or no condition at all. …

Yes, you are correct in your observation of my method, Jane.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Several Scriptural scenarios have been offered which do not fit your theological rubric. For example, the woman forgiven for her love. …

Correction, Jane, Jesus says she was forgiven for her faith:

Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”(Luke 7:50)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Or in another instance, the paralytic forgiven on account of the faith of his friends. …

Does Jesus give the reason why he forgave the paralyzed man? I was not aware that he did. Perhaps we should examine this account more closely?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… You forget, perhaps too, that Christ the Lord is God Himself. By the Spirit, he searches man’s hearts and knows their innermost thoughts, thus He alone is able to forgive based on absolute knowledge of contrition and culpability. You can not.

We, not being God, limited in our knowledge and wisdom are challenged to forgive, by grace, out of Chrisitian charity. Are you required by law to do this? No. It is out of love. Forgiveness, as an act of charity, is a movement of grace within you which you, then, can freely choose to generously distribute among others. If you do not have this gift, you need only ask for it and it will be given to you.

No, i have not forgotten, Jane. I never claimed that i could forgive as perfectly as God Himself forgives. Perhaps you have forgotten that we must try to forgive as perfectly as He does?

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(Matthew 5:48)
What is the perfect way that God the Father forgives, and that i should try my best to imitate, Jane?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I agree with the others here - the verse you consistently cite (If your brother repents, forgive him) is telling ME the forgiver of a condition I must fulfill as I forgive (If someone repents I MUST forgive him). However, what many of us are arguing is that with the same measure we forgive we will be forgiven. The greater the mercy and forgiveness we show is, the more mercy and forgiveness we will be shown by our heavenly father. We would simply rather err on the side of mercy than find ourselves trying to justify a less merciful stance before God. …

Then i shall stand beside you and the others and fight on the side of this truth as well, my good doctor! We do not see eye-to-eye on everything, but i agree with you have said and find it worthy of defending with the Sword of the Spirit.



If i refuse to forgive someone who has repented, then i am not repenting of my lack of forgiveness. God, in turn, is not obligated to forgive me, for i am unrepentant. I think not forgiving should be a rare and serious action to take, and only with those who are obviously hellbent.

 

[YinYangMom]

Reposting the following questions as I am most interested in your answers but you have yet to respond:

Consider also the parable of the moneylender Jesus tells:

1. 
   *]where in those passages does it say the men who owed the debts repented for those debts or even asked that they be canceled?
   *]Where does it say the moneylender set conditions on the two men **in order that **he would cancel their debts?
   *]Where in the passage does Jesus say the moneylender was wrong to cancel both debts?
   Now, I ask you…which action do you believe Jesus would value more as a demonstration of your love for Him:
   
   Forgiving someone who repents to you as **you are obliged **to do (according to the law or scripture)
   or
   forgiving the person without their repentance when **you are not obliged **to do so, nor are you prohibited from doing so (according to the law or scripture)?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Again - I’d like to hold out Mark 11:22-25 for comment (I quoted it last time, others have quoted it):Quote:

22"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. 23"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

My good doctor,

I will ask you one question. Answer me, and then i will comment on Mark, chapter 11: As you mentioned, Jesus said, “Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” Does He give you and me whatever we ask for in prayer, or only what we ask for that He wants us to have?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

Fair enough, sweet Jane! I cannot say for certain the woman in Luke, chapter 7 repented of her sin; you cannot say for certain she did not. Our God and Savior does make an interesting remark to her, however:

Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”(Luke 7:50)Tell me, sweet Jane, do you believe saving faith is possible without​

repentance?

​

Interesting side step. I can not respond as I understand the term “saving faith” can mean a number of different things within various faith traditions.

Suffice it to say, I believe that Christ’s love and forgiveness, as examplified by Jesus in his parable of the moneylender (Luke 7), can be transformative and move a previously unrepentant soul or a soul in a state of imperfect contrition. …

Let me rephrase the question, Jane: Do you believe that God the Father requires repentance and faith from a non-Catholic before she can receive His forgiveness?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I’d like to point out that we are STILL operating under different definitions of forgiveness and mercy. Few (if any) of us are willing to accept your definition of forgiveness and you are not willing to accept ours. So I’m not really sure that there CAN be a productive conversation here.

I will be reading (and praying) as usual. May you find the Truth

Then i’m afraid you are correct. We will never come to an agreement about how to show mercy and how to forgive if we mean completely different things when we say the word mercy and the word forgive.

I’m using the dictionary to determine the meaning of the words mercy and forgive. To what authority are you appealing to define these words, doctor?

mercynoun

1. 
   *]Leniency and compassion shown toward offenders by a person or agency charged with administering justice; “he threw himself on the mercy of the court” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clemency”]clemency]
   *]A disposition to be kind and forgiving; “in those days a wife had to depend on the mercifulness of her husband” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness] [ant: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercilessness”]mercilessness]
   *]The feeling that motivates compassion [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness]
   *]Something for which to be thankful; “it was a mercy we got out alive”
   *]Alleviation of distress; showing great kindness toward the distressed; “distributing food and clothing to the flood victims was an act of mercy”
   
   WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.======================================
   
   for·give http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (fər-gĭv’, fôr-) Pronunciation Key v. for·gave (-gāv’), for·giv·en (-gĭv’ən), for·giv·ing, for·gives v. tr.
   1. 
      *]To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
      *]To renounce anger or resentment against.
      *]To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
      
      American Heritage Dictionary Personally, i’m trying to use as broad a definition as possible for these words, doctor. For example, i’m assuming that to forgive means not just to renounce anger. Rather, it means to renounce anger AND pardon AND absolve from payment.