Forgiveness FAQ

[Socrates4Jesus]

… F2 would only appear to be forgiveness for someone who has decided that their intentions are more important than their actions.

Chuck

Chuck:

Yes, to say that one can forgive someone in his heart without forgiving someone with his words and deeds seems disingenuous to me. My good friend St. John appeared to be saying something similar when he wrote

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
(1 John 3:18)
as did our beloved Lord, who said

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?”
(Luke 6:46)

Notice that Jesus did not say, “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not think what I say you should think?”

However, perhaps ML and LM are not wrong. If forgiveness is what we think, then it would follow that this forgiveness would cause us to say and do forgiving things. If this is the case, one might logically argue that the forgiving things we say and do are not the same as forgiveness. The forgiving things we say and do are not the result of forgiveness in our minds, the forgiveness in our minds is the reason for the forgiving things we do.
Forgiveness is the cause, forgiving things we say and do are the consequence of that cause, and a cause cannot be the same as its effect. In other words, the forgiving things you and i say and do are not forgiveness itself. Forgiveness itself is what takes place in your mind and mine when we choose to love.

This brings me to the question i’ve posted previously: Do you think that forgiveness is love, or is it something else?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… This is ridiculous. I believe I explained myself clearly. Forgiveness is an act of the will. What you may or may not do or say is irreverent to the act of forgiving. Those things come after, they are responses to the act (of the will) of forgiving.

M

I’m surprised to hear you say my trying to understand what forgiveness is and how to forgive is ridiculous! You appear so certain you understand everything Jesus taught about forgiveness. Now, Jesus said

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?”
(Luke 6:46)

Can you be so sure, M, that you comprehend everything Jesus taught regarding what forgiveness is and how you are to forgive? Please be honest with me, now.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I don’t know that we can or should even try to “forgive like God does.”

We are so far removed from him it is not even possible.

God knows the hearts of all His children in a way we never can.
…

Yes, Chuck, but i believe we are to try to forgive others exactly the same way God forgives us, for St. Paul writes that we are to
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
(Colossians 3:13)

 

[mlldrl]

I’m surprised to hear you say my trying to understand what forgiveness is and how to forgive is ridiculous! You appear so certain you understand everything Jesus taught about forgiveness. Now, Jesus said

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?”
(Luke 6:46)

Can you be so sure, M, that you comprehend everything Jesus taught regarding what forgiveness is and how you are to forgive? Please be honest with me, now.

The ridiculous part is you trying to make a formula out of forgiveness. Moreover, I return to what I said before, that you over complicate things.

Also, I make no claim to comprehend everything Jesus taught so don’t put words in my mouth. This isn’t the first time I’ve had to call you out for doing so either.

Regarding forgiveness and reconciliation, I am comfortable with my understanding of it. An understanding of it that comes from receiving direction from two priests. Furthermore, I follow the lead of the Church since the sacrament of Reconciliation is an excellent model for us to follow.

M

 

[ttg]

I cannot imagine what you have gone through.

Unfortunately, I don’t have to imagine. I’ve been there.

My problem with forgiving my ex-wife has been going on for seven years now. She tearfully said she was sorry the night I confronted her with affairs. (Yes, several, not just one.) I honestly accepted her apology and told her I forgave her. But she did it again and again.

She divorced me and married one of the people she was having an affair with and converted to SDA. The one thing I needed to keep my sanity was an apology from her for her most recent affairs. I asked her for an apology and told her how important it was for me. She refused, and to this day I cannot forgive her for what she did to my family.

Why should I forgive a person who does not ask forgiveness?

 

[trogiah]

Yes, Jim, i agree. Yet, both trusting a person who deserves to be trusted and keeping no record of wrongs are attributes of love, are they not? Would you say, then, that forgiveness is really just one aspect of love, and that love is the best of all motivators which includes forgiveness, patience, trust and all other ways of good and righteous thinking?

I think much of my life I would have agreed with this but the more I consider it, the more I think putting trust in another person has little to do with love and much more to do with dealing with people in a practical way.

I could trust that a man who has always told the truth (to the best of my knowledge) is likely to tell the truth in the future. I may or may not like or love the person but I would likely trust that they would be honest.

I may love a person very much who has been in the habit of going to casinos and gambling money away but I don’t think it is to anyone benefits to give that person some money and “trust” that they would not gamble it away.

Putting trust in someone is not the same thing as loving them. All of us have our limitations and none of us deserve absolute trust. Putting more trust in someone than they have demonstrated they can handle is setting them up for failure. We are not doing them a favor by “trusting” them in situations in which they have demonstrated they are unworthy of trust.

I have learned this from both ends. Both from trusting people more than they could handle. And from being trusted more than I could handle.

Jim

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Putting trust in someone is not the same thing as loving them. All of us have our limitations and none of us deserve absolute trust. Putting more trust in someone than they have demonstrated they can handle is setting them up for failure. We are not doing them a favor by “trusting” them in situations in which they have demonstrated they are unworthy of trust.

I have learned this from both ends. Both from trusting people more than they could handle. And from being trusted more than I could handle.

Jim

Jim:

I see true wisdom in much of your words. It makes sense that it would be wrong to trust someone more than they should be trusted. For example, my youngest son who is still in grade school has asked if i would allow him to ride his bike alone to the closest gas station to get himself some candy. There is a street with heavy traffic that he would have to cross to get to this gas station. He is too young, so of course i would not allow him. I was loving him, for St. Paul writes that “love … always protects”. However, Paul also wrote in the same passage that “love … always trusts” so one might argue that i was not loving my son.

Now one day he and his older brother, who is in middle school (Jr. high) asked if they could go for a ride to the park together. Instead of going to the nearby park, they rode a mile or so to a local coffee shop, crossing the same busy street. Now my wife and i are reluctant to trust them to ride on their bikes out of our site, because love always protects.

So, i agree that when St. Paul writes

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
(1 Corinthians 13:1-8)

that he is not saying we must love a person in every way, or even that it is possible to love a person in every way. However, i think he is teaching that we should love a person in every way that is wise to love that person. If a person, who has lost my trust, has over time done all that i ask to regain my trust, it would be unloving for me to be one who will keep a record of the wrongs she did to me and refuse to trust her again. Yes, what you say makes sense.

My question to you, then, is do you think that a person who says he forgives but refuses to trust someone, when that person can handle and deserves that trust, has really forgiven the person? I know i keep coming back to St. John’s words, but they seem extremely applicable:

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
(1 John 3:18)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The ridiculous part is you trying to make a formula out of forgiveness. Moreover, I return to what I said before, that you over complicate things.

Also, I make no claim to comprehend everything Jesus taught so don’t put words in my mouth. This isn’t the first time I’ve had to call you out for doing so either.

Regarding forgiveness and reconciliation, I am comfortable with my understanding of it. An understanding of it that comes from receiving direction from two priests. Furthermore, I follow the lead of the Church since the sacrament of Reconciliation is an excellent model for us to follow.

M

Mr. M:

Have these two priests really taught you that a person should forgive regardless of what the offender thinks, says and does? What if Jesus said something contrary; would you listen to them or to Him? If what Jesus said did not agree with what they said, would not the right thing to do be to bring what Jesus said to their attention and ask them to consider it?

Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
(Galatians 1:6)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. #4. Did Jesus teach that there are any conditions people must meet before we can forgive them?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Unfortunately, I don’t have to imagine. I’ve been there. …Why should I forgive a person who does not ask forgiveness?

I cannot imagine your pain either TTG. I have suffered betrayal, but never from my wife. Why indeed should you forgive someone who refuses to be forgiven? Does God forgive everyone who refuses to be forgiven?

These are hard questions, but they need to be asked by someone living a hard life. Personally, i’ve been betrayed by people and had to make a decision to allow the pain to make me bitter or to allow God to use the pain to make me better. That might be one purpose of pain, don’t you think TTG? Suffering can help you and i “know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28).

There is also another good purpose of pain:

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows.
(2 Corinthians 1:3-5)
I’ve found that God has used my own suffering to create compassion in me for those who have suffered the same. When i try to comfort them, it helps them to know that i have gone through what they are going through. They then are more likely to listen when i tell them that God never promised to take our troubles away, but He did promise to take us through all our troubles.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I don’t know that we can or should even try to “forgive like God does.”

We are so far removed from him it is not even possible.

God knows the hearts of all His children in a way we never can.

God has given us the free gift of His forgiveness and has taken extrordinary steps to do so.

But He is not just the God of Love and forgiveness, He is also the God of Justice and will judge all of us who refuse to accept His grace in a way that we are not capable and should not try to emulate.

His forgiveness is conditional. He requires Repentance and Faith in His Word.

We cannot require either from those who have offended us.

Chuck

I said previously that you made an extremely good point about God’s forgiveness being conditional. I’d like to consider what you said, now, as Mr. D does not seem interested in reasoning with me.

Now, i agree with you that God’s forgiveness is conditional. I agree that the condition we must meet to be forgiven by God is repentance. Jesus, after all, began His ministry saying

“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

(Matthew 4:17)
and, as Matthew writes, he continued to teach people that they must repent. Indeed, he ended his ministry when

He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.”

(Luke 24:46-48)
St. Paul also taught the same Gospel, for he said

“The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

(Acts 5:30-32)
So you and i know that someone who calls himself a Christian and says he has saving faith but does not need to repent is only fooling himself. Why? I think the answer is that faith without repentance is a false faith, because faith and repentance are like two sides of the same coin. You and i cannot have one without the other. Therefore, God only forgives those who know they need to repent and who do repent. That’s why Jesus and St. Paul taught that repentance is necessary for salvation.

Continued . . .

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Now i know Mr. M misunderstands that i think forgiveness is a formula. It is not. However, we can use symbols to make a representation of the logic behind an idea about forgiveness. Forgiveness is not the logical diagram we draw, rather, the logical diagram we draw represents the conclusion we come to about forgiveness and the premises we use to reach that conclusion. The one i would like to propose that we all consider is this:

C = How a Christian is to forgiveG = How God Himself forgivesR = Forgiving only those who repentUsing these letters to represent the premises we find that the Bible teaches

C = Gfor St. Paul writes

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.(Ephesians 4:29-32)That is, we are to forgive each other (C) just as Christ God forgives us (G), as Ephesians 4:32 teaches.

Of course, if

C = Gthen

G = CThat is, God forgives us the way that He expects us to forgive one another. Moreover,

if C = GandG = RthenC = RTherefore, we are to forgive those who repent. If a person refuses to repent, God gives us the liberty to refuse to forgive, for He does no less, and we are to

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. (Ephesians 5:1-2)Does anyone disagree with this, or do you all agree that sometimes the most loving thing to do for a person who refuses to repent is to give her what she wants and not forgive her?

 

[mlldrl]

Mr. M:

Have these two priests really taught you that a person should forgive regardless of what the offender thinks, says and does?

Yes. I don’t know what give you the idea that I don’t believe that. Are you trying to place words in my mouth again?

What if Jesus said something contrary; would you listen to them or to Him? If what Jesus said did not agree with what they said, would not the right thing to do be to bring what Jesus said to their attention and ask them to consider it?

And what if monkeys fly? Again with these ridiculous statements! I don’t know what you’re getting at and since I’m certain that you don’t have Jesus on speed dial I’ll take my direction from the Church which Jesus founded…the Catholic Church. I recommend you do the same.

M

 

[clmowry]

I think, perhaps, we’v mixed up “forgiving” with “receiving forgiveness” here.

That is C is like G but C does not equal G and we are not involved in R.

Chuck

Now i know Mr. M misunderstands that i think forgiveness is a formula. It is not. However, we can use symbols to make a representation of the logic behind an idea about forgiveness. Forgiveness is not the logical diagram we draw, rather, the logical diagram we draw represents the conclusion we come to about forgiveness and the premises we use to reach that conclusion. The one i would like to propose that we all consider is this:

C = How a Christian is to forgiveG = How God Himself forgivesR = Forgiving only those who repentUsing these letters to represent the premises we find that the Bible teaches

C = Gfor St. Paul writes

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.(Ephesians 4:29-32)That is, we are to forgive each other (C) just as Christ God forgives us (G), as Ephesians 4:32 teaches.

Of course, if

C = Gthen

G = CThat is, God forgives us the way that He expects us to forgive one another. Moreover,

if C = GandG = RthenC = RTherefore, we are to forgive those who repent. If a person refuses to repent, God gives us the liberty to refuse to forgive, for He does no less, and we are to

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. (Ephesians 5:1-2)Does anyone disagree with this, or do you all agree that sometimes the most loving thing to do for a person who refuses to repent is to give her what she wants and not forgive her?

 

[mlldrl]

Deidre,

Are you still around? I sent you a PM regarding this topic.

Michael

 

[Deidre]

Deidre,

Are you still around? I sent you a PM regarding this topic.

Michael

Just replied to it! Thanks!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes. I don’t know what give you the idea that I don’t believe that. Are you trying to place words in my mouth again?

And what if monkeys fly? Again with these ridiculous statements! I don’t know what you’re getting at and since I’m certain that you don’t have Jesus on speed dial I’ll take my direction from the Church which Jesus founded…the Catholic Church. I recommend you do the same.

M

My apologies, Michael, i thought you had agreed with LM that one should always forgive others regardless of whether or not they repent.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think, perhaps, we’v mixed up “forgiving” with “receiving forgiveness” here.

That is C is like G but C does not equal G and we are not involved in R.

Chuck

Hey, Chuck. I’m not sure i understand what you mean by mixing up forgiving with receiving forgiveness. When you say “we are not involved in R” do you mean that we are not supposed to require others repent of the wrongs they have done to us before we forgive them?

Soc

 

[mlldrl]

My apologies, Michael, i thought you had agreed with LM that one should always forgive others regardless of whether or not they repent.

I do believe that you should forgive even those who do not seek your forgiveness. After all didn’t Jesus tell St. Peter to forgive seven times seventy times. Reconciliation is another matter all together.

M

 

[trogiah]

My question to you, then, is do you think that a person who says he forgives but refuses to trust someone, when that person can handle and deserves that trust, has really forgiven the person? I know i keep coming back to St. John’s words, but they seem extremely applicable:

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

There seem to be a lot of conditionals in that question but I will give it a try.

I would first say that it is possible to forgive someone but to still not trust them in certain situations. I may forgive a relative for borrowing money and not paying it back, but that doesn’t mean that I will lend them more money unless I thought I could get along even if they didn’t pay it back.

A person might forgive a spouse for being abusive but perhaps still not trust that the person would not be abusive again and so still not agree to live with that person.

Deciding to trust a person again depends on a lot of things like knowing what the worst possible case would be if the person failed the trust. If a person met certain conditions to regain trust then there would be more reason to trust again.

I would emphasis again that unconditional love and trust should only be given to God. No person, not a spouse who has always been faithful, a friend who has always been true, a parent who has always “been there”, noone should be given the whole hearted love and trust that only belongs to God. None of us are worthy of receiving that from another person. And the person who trusts that much in another person will ultimately be disappointed.

We are commanded to “love our neighbor as ourself.” which is not the same as loving and trusting with all our mind, heart, and soul.

peace

Jim