Forgiveness FAQ

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

I believe i might have given the false impression that i thought you were advocating harboring resentment. I do NOT believe you were!

Anyone who has read through even a portion of my posts to this thread would be well under the impression that I do not advocate harboring resentment! What a funny false impression that would be, indeed!

My point was that i believe i must first deal with my thoughts of resentment before i pardon or absolve. I must repent of my desire to resent. Once i have forgiven the person in my thoughts by ceasing to resent her, i can then proceed to forgive by my actions. I do not see how i can sincerely forgive by pardoning or absolving first and ceasing to resent later.

This has been my point precisely. Forgiveness, as it is an act of love (or as the Catechism calls it, the first effect of love) must, by necessity, be an outpouring of grace from the heart of a man.

We forgive from the inside out, i think.

Ideally, yes, I think so, too. This would be the ordinary mode of forgiveness. But, there are those times in which outward signs of forgiveness, can act upon a heart and cause a transformation which was not previously realized or completed.

An example of such would be those small, but profound acts of willful charity which, upon becoming habitual, turn from isolated instances of ejaculatory grace to rivers of love and mercy flowing from within.

This, I believe, is how forgiveness changes the forgiver.

“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”

(John 7:38)

And just as living water transforms the land upon which it flows, so too does forgiveness, streaming from the heart of man, begin a process of true conversion. As the water flows, the banks become wider and the soil is made fertile. Such is the nature of forgiveness, flowing, changing, transforming for the glory of God!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Anyone who has read through even a portion of my posts to this thread would be well under the impression that I do not advocate harboring resentment! What a funny false impression that would be, indeed! …

LOL! Yeah.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… This has been my point precisely. Forgiveness, as it is an act of love (or as the Catechism calls it, the first effect of love) must, by necessity, be an outpouring of grace from the heart of a man. … And just as living water transforms the land upon which it flows, so too does forgiveness, streaming from the heart of man, begin a process of true conversion. As the water flows, the banks become wider and the soil is made fertile. Such is the nature of forgiveness, flowing, changing, transforming for the glory of God!

Yes, i concur. It’s the love of God flowing from within me that makes it possible to love those i hate, “because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us” (Romans 5:5). If my motive to forgive is love, then i am not acting out of hatred. Any act that is not hatred cannot be one of resentment, for resentment is hatred for another.

I suppose it might be possible to pardon and absolve a person from any consequences for the sins she had willfully and deliberately and knowingly committed against me. This would not be an example of love for the forgiven, however, if i still resented her at the time i pardoned and absolved her. It might be love for God, but certainly not love for the offender. For how can resentment be anything less than hatred?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

And there is no resentment in God’s motives, for resentment is hatred. And God never hates, “because God is love” (1 John 4:8).

So we have the first of three answers to my last question:

* *

*Q. 30. Is the way that God forgives really as different as we think it is from the way He wants us to forgive?*For the first way you and i forgive, which is to not resent, is the way that God Himself also (and always) forgives, for He never resents. Do you think that what my fingers speak is true, my friend Jane?

 

[JaneFrances]

And there is no resentment in God’s motives, for resentment is hatred. And God never hates, “because God is love” (1 John 4:8).

So we have the first of three answers to my last question:

* *

*Q. 30. Is the way that God forgives really as different as we think it is from the way He wants us to forgive?*For the first way you and i forgive, which is to not resent, is the way that God Himself also (and always) forgives, for He never resents. Do you think that what my fingers speak is true, my friend Jane?

I think the market you are cornering is just the one you boycotted mere weeks ago!

I think our efforts to forgive because of love are, indeed, the most perfect reflections of God’s own forgiveness.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think the market you are cornering is just the one you boycotted mere weeks ago!

I think our efforts to forgive because of love are, indeed, the most perfect reflections of God’s own forgiveness.

I believe my error was in thinking that ceasing to resent was mercy, not forgiveness. I suppose God will pardon me for this, as i erred in ignorance. I know He will not resent me for it, for you do not resent me, and you could not possibly love me more than He!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

We are agreed, then, that i should forgive as God forgives in not resenting. Although i do not think it possible to eradicate such feelings of resentment completely, with God’s help i might not act on those feelings. Being tempted to resentment is not a sin, for temptation is not a sin; giving into it is. When i do not give into that temptation i am forgiving more like God, i think.

That leaves us with two other ways i might forgive: by pardoning a person for his sins against me and by cancelling the debt the person owes me for the wrongs he has perpetrated.

Now, the word Christian literally means “Little Christ”. It was a way of mocking the early followers of Jesus who were willing to give up their lives as He did, through persecution and suffering. I think it is fitting, too, for Christians are always a little like Him and rarely, if ever, exactly like Him (though this is my desire).

So what do you think of pardon, Jane? Is there any way that i pardon that is in some small way a little like the way God Himself pardons?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

**Waiting for Jane’s reply. **

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http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/primary/images/1206101/blue_down_arrow.gif

 

[JaneFrances]

So what do you think of pardon, Jane? Is there any way that i pardon that is in some small way a little like the way God Himself pardons?

Sorry to have delayed so long. . .

What do I think of pardon? It is good.

Is there any way that I pardon that is in some small way like the way God Himself pardons? Yes.

When I pardon anyone who doesn’t deserve my pardon, I am reflecting in some small way the pardon that I recieve for my sin which I will never deserve.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Sorry to have delayed so long. . .

What do I think of pardon? It is good.

Is there any way that I pardon that is in some small way like the way God Himself pardons? Yes.

When I pardon anyone who doesn’t deserve my pardon, I am reflecting in some small way the pardon that I recieve for my sin which I will never deserve.

You make me smile, Jane! It appears we have caught a glimpse of the one who is the truth, if only in our minds with the help of the Spirit. The same is true of absolution, i think, you and i should always try to forgive in some small way the way God forgives by cancelling the debts of those for whom it is just to do so. I think you agree it is often just to pardon and cancel the debts of those whom we believe have truly repented.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

And so this is a bitter sweet close to a wonderful journey, like watching a movie you want to never end or finishing a book you just could not put down. There was so much conflict that might have resulted in evil, but God meant it for our good, i think. He has given us a beautiful picture of forgiveness that is, i’m sure, just a wonderful glimpse of the reality in Jesus Christ. Though we have not seen Him, you and i love him, Jane, and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy. For we are receiving the goal of our faith; the salvation of our souls. To be sure, we are saved not because of the righteous things we have done but because of his mercy. We are saved by the washing and rebirth of the Holy Spirit, for God has filled our hearts with His love. It’s a love that forgives as He forgives, always showing mercy, never harboring resentment, and justly pardoning and generously forgiving the debts of those who, having once wronged us, have a change of heart, repent of their sins, and turn to us and God to be forever forgiven and forever grow closer to us and Him. When we see Him face-to-face, we shall finally be like Him, and He shall wipe away every tear from our eyes, as he promised, and we shall hear those words we longed to hear: “Well done, good and faithful servant.” For we always tried to be, in some small way, as much like Jesus as the Father enabled us. Though we often failed, we continuously longed to forgive as much like Him as we could. Not by our own might, nor by our own power, but by his Spirit did we obey the command to “Forgive as the Lord forgave you.” Having seen the truth of this forgiveness, i think we have nothing left to say, and nothing more satisfying to do but admire His beauty and think about Him.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

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[Ellen_G]

Am going to give another try ! The more I read of this the more confused I get – too abstract and no faces ! – even in your play acting, Socrates ! Dr Victor Frankl ( wrote: Will To Meaning ) stated that we do not know God intellectually, but intuitively ( intellect plays a part ). Dr Frankl explained this as a Mother being tuned into her baby’s cry in the middle of the nite, where as she could sleep through a train whistle after conditioning herself.

Without God’s Grace, we could go to confession a 100 times a day and still turn around and go back in again ! Pope John Paul went every day. All I have to do is listen to the liberal politicians and I get angry unless I say " Father forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing. St Paul said that he did the things that he hated. Our Lord told St Peter that we had to forgive continuously. It is also easier to forgive someone that is at a distance than up close who has wounded us deeply. Now that I’m retired and get to daily mass, I can see a bit of progress from the graces received from the sacraments. When I was in the work force there were always personalities involved that made life more difficult.Pope John gave us the year of the Eucharist and those of us that got in the habit of adoring would all testify to the graces received ( I find myself getting angry with our priests who don’t encourage this devotion ! How’s that for progress in my spiritual life ! Pope John Paul stated that 2 things were important in our present world: 1. Personal relation with Christ. 2. Sense of humor.

Will end with what my favorite Franciscan used to tell us students: Everyone’s crazy except Thee and Me, and sometimes I wonder a wee bit about Thee. Love you all in Christ !

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Am going to give another try ! The more I read of this the more confused I get – too abstract and no faces ! – even in your play acting, Socrates ! Dr Victor Frankl ( wrote: Will To Meaning ) stated that we do not know God intellectually, but intuitively ( intellect plays a part ). Dr Frankl explained this as a Mother being tuned into her baby’s cry in the middle of the nite, where as she could sleep through a train whistle after conditioning herself. …

Ellen:

Please do not try to understand it on your own! First of all pray before you read for God’s guidance (i did so each day):

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

Second of all, ask questions, lots of them, for Christians should always answer your sincere questions:

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect… .

(1 Peter 3:15)
I’ll be gone on a trip for the next week, but i’m sure that Jane, the good doctor, Guano, or one of the many other participants in this conversation will be here for you. Good hunting! May God bless you with answers to all your questions.

 

[JaneFrances]

Happy Travels, Socrates4Jesus. Be safe.

 

[Ellen_G]

Didn’t mean to give you the impression that I was attempting to do it on my own Socrates’ – Receive the Body and Blood of our Lord daily and ask for discernment in this regard. I used to wrestle with anxiety over lifes’ dilemmas but have a better handle on these situations, thanks to God’s grace through the sacraments. I do also attempt to stay in the present, regarding what’s going on in the world. I am a retired nurse and am concerned ( different than worry ) about what is taking place ( esp for my beautiful grandbabies future ). God doesn’t usually come direct ( I’ve been told ! ) but uses us creatures to help make our mini-world His Kingdom here on Terra Firma. I just finished reading a great book, hot off the press, by Sam Brownback: “Power to Purpose”. This Man had a faith experience when he faced cancer and is now running for President. Talk about FORGIVENESS – this man asked forgiveness from his enemies, right on the senate floor. Sam is able to work with his opponets in ways that have left all of us behind. I would encourage all to read about what he has to say about our culture ( pornography, slave sex trade, etc etc.).

Prayers for safe travel.

In Jesus, through Mary ( with a smile ! )

 

[DrPiano]

Didn’t mean to give you the impression that I was attempting to do it on my own Socrates’ – Receive the Body and Blood of our Lord daily and ask for discernment in this regard. I used to wrestle with anxiety over lifes’ dilemmas but have a better handle on these situations, thanks to God’s grace through the sacraments. I do also attempt to stay in the present, regarding what’s going on in the world. I am a retired nurse and am concerned ( different than worry ) about what is taking place ( esp for my beautiful grandbabies future ). God doesn’t usually come direct ( I’ve been told ! ) but uses us creatures to help make our mini-world His Kingdom here on Terra Firma. I just finished reading a great book, hot off the press, by Sam Brownback: “Power to Purpose”. This Man had a faith experience when he faced cancer and is now running for President. Talk about FORGIVENESS – this man asked forgiveness from his enemies, right on the senate floor. Sam is able to work with his opponets in ways that have left all of us behind. I would encourage all to read about what he has to say about our culture ( pornography, slave sex trade, etc etc.).

Prayers for safe travel.

In Jesus, through Mary ( with a smile ! )

So Ellen - is there anything that we can help you out with? Would you like to elaborate a little on your confusion? Where do we have you puzzled?

 

[clmowry]

:clapping: :clapping: :dancing: :clapping: :dancing: :clapping:

 

[Ellen_G]

"
IN TE Domine Speravi – let me not be confused forever !

Maybe confused wasn’t the right word to use, maybe searching was the right word ! I have worked with hospice patients and have read extensively on what is discerned through research in Death and dying. I have seen a few beautiful deaths and they have involved reconcilliation with family and friends. So far in this forum, I do not think we are moving forward. " – Doesn’t mean I don’t Love You !

In Jesus through Mary – HUGS

 

[DrPiano]

"
IN TE Domine Speravi – let me not be confused forever !

Maybe confused wasn’t the right word to use, maybe searching was the right word ! I have worked with hospice patients and have read extensively on what is discerned through research in Death and dying. I have seen a few beautiful deaths and they have involved reconcilliation with family and friends. So far in this forum, I do not think we are moving forward. " – Doesn’t mean I don’t Love You !

In Jesus through Mary – HUGS

I would agree that reconciliation is a beautiful thing. I also know it isn’t always possible - nor is it synonymous with forgiveness. Reconciliation is a two-way dance - it requires both parties to come together, admit they’ve been wrong, and go from there to rebuild all the trust and help each other heal. For some, this just isn’t possible - not because they don’t want it, but because the other person involved doesn’t want it.

Reconciliation is beautiful. Certainly sometimes we can offer it freely, without repentance by the other person, but often it is not loving to the other person to offer it without expecting an apology and a change of heart. To do so may put the other person in the near occcasion of sin, it might minimize the seriousness of their actions. It could certainly be offered, with the hope that the act of grace shown by offering it will spur them to repentance, but it does not seem to be required of us.

At least that is the way I see it. Do you have other thoughts you’d like to share?