Forgiveness FAQ

[Socrates4Jesus]

So, i ask God, “If i knew a person’s actions would result in her being condemned to hell and i did not rebuke her for this, would i be loving her or hating her?”

The answer i think i receive from the Holy Spirit and the reason God gave me is this: Rather than sin by forgiving her and not pointing out her sin that separates her from God, the most loving thing to do is to rebuke her (gently if possible) for her sin. Rebuking a person is, of course, keeping a record of her wrongs, especially if i must rebuke her more than once. And keeping a record of wrongs is certainly the opposite of forgiveness.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Q. 14. Since Jesus kept a record of wrongs when people refused to repent (e.g., Matthew 23) how can it be wrong for you and i to do the same?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…Forgiveness can be unconditional; it does not have to require repentance by The Other. That is our right; that is our obligation; that is our Christian duty; that is taking the extra step.

It seems to me we are coming into the arena of the foremost parable: that of the Prodigal Son. I must admit that I am the older brother, the Pharisee. We look at his actions (with which I -sadly- identify), at the actions of the father, and those of the returning son. This is THE story about forgiveness.

Herder:

I agree that forgiveness does not always require repentance. Jesus, for example, prayed as He suffered on the cross:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)This is not the same as forgiving unconditionally, however. The condition, in this case, was a lack of culpability. The Roman soldiers thought they were executing a criminal who deserved the death penalty. As St. Paul wrote:

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.(1 Corinthians 2:8)They did not know they were doing wrong. This is one condition a person might meet in order for you or i to forgive him. As stated earlier, Jesus gives another condition a person might meet to be forgiven:

“… if he repents, forgive him.”(Luke 17:3)There might, of course, be other conditions a person might meet to be forgiven of which i am unaware. If you have a Scripture that suggests one, please let me know.

You mentioned the parable of the lost son. The question i should answer is, “Did the lost son meet either condition to be forgiven?” Did he (a) not know what he was doing was wrong, or (b) repent of his sin?

I’m not sure about (a) but condition (b) he certainly met, for Jesus tells in the story:

“When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ So he got up and went to his father.” (Luke 15:17-20)Here, the son repents in his thoughts, for Jesus says that the son “came to his senses” and decided to return home to his father and admit he had sinned against him. His actions prove he repented, for Jesus said, “he got up and went to his father”. His sin was leaving home. He repented of his sin by returning home. His father forgave him, ran to him, embraced him, kissed him, and welcomed him home.

The question i should ask you, Herder, is what about the son who never left home? Did the father forgive him, too? Jesus says of him:

"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’ " ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ "(Luke 15:28-31)The irony of the story is that the son who stayed home was just as lost as the son who left, for he did not repent of his hatred for his brother.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ TWEETY }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

How is your mum doing? I hope she is feeling better, matey.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Does anyone have an answer?

*

Q. 14. Since Jesus kept a record of wrongs when people refused to repent (e.g., Matthew 23) how can it be wrong for you and i to do the same?*

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Perhaps the reason no one offers an answer to question # 14 is because the answer is that it is not wrong to keep a record of wrongs?

I could ask other questions such as


Q. 15. Is there even one example in the Bible where God or His children forgive a person who (A) knows what he is doing is wrong and (B) refuses to repent of that wrong?

and


Q. 16. Since it is not wrong to keep a record of wrongs when a person refuses to repent, and forgiveness is keeping no record of wrongs, then is it not true that it is sometimes not wrong to withhold forgiveness?

I think these questions would meet with silent assent as well.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

What follows are the questions i have asked:

===== Post #1 =====

Q. What conditions must someone meet before he should forgive her?

===== Post #17 =====

Q. 2: Is forgiveness an act of love, or is it something else?

===== Post #42 =====

Q. 3. Are we to forgive others in the same way God forgives us, or in a different way?

===== Post #69 =====

Q. 4. Did Jesus teach that there are any conditions people must meet before we should forgive them?

===== Post #104 =====

Q. 5. Does anyone have an opinion as to what Jesus meant in Luke 17:3-4?

*“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” *===== Post #134 =====

Q. 6. Does God forgive everyone, even those who never repent?

===== Post #141 =====

Q. 7. Is forgiveness love?

===== Post #152 =====

Q. 7a. Is forgiveness an attribute of love, or an act of love, or both, or neither?"

===== Post #206 =====

Q. 8. Since forgiveness is an attribute or act of love, which one of these attributes or acts of love listed in 1 Corinthians 13 describes forgiveness?

• patient
• kind
• not envious
• not boastful
• not proud
• not rude
• not selfish
• not easily angered
• not keeping a record of wrongs
• not delighting in evil
• rejoicing with the truth
• always protecting
• always trusting
• always hoping
• always persevering
• never failing to love
  ===== Post #223 =====

Q. 9. We should love those we forgive in every way that is wise. However, is forgiveness only that attribute or act of love that “keeps no record of wrongs” (1 Corinthians 13:4)?

===== Post #257 =====

Q. 9b. Is forgiveness only that attribute or act of love that “keeps no record of wrongs” (1 Corinthians 13:4)?

===== Post #269 =====

Q. 10. If i say i forgive with my words but do not show i am keeping no record of wrongs with my actions, am i being sincere or a hypocrite?

===== Post #257 =====

Q. 11. How do you and i show, by our actions (and not just by what we think and say) that we have truly kept no record of wrongs?

===== Post #288 =====

Q. 11b. To forgive with thoughts and words but not deeds makes us hypocrites. So, how do you and i show, by our actions (and not just by what we think and say) that we have truly kept no record of wrongs?

===== Post #279 =====

Q. 12. Since forgiveness is keeping no record of wrongs, and trust requires that we do not hold wrongs against someone, is it possible to forgive a person without trusting him?

===== Post #293 =====

Q. 13. Is not doing what encourages people to repent a good thing and that which pleases the Lord we love? If withholding forgiveness and trust convinces a person to stop sinning and seek forgiveness from you and God, how can this be wrong?

===== Post #302 =====

Q. 14. Since Jesus kept a record of wrongs when people refused to repent (e.g., Matthew 23) how can it be wrong for you and i to do the same?

===== Post #306 =====

Q. 15. Is there even one example in the Bible where God or His children forgive a person who (A) knows what he is doing is wrong and (B) refuses to repent of that wrong?

===== Post #306 =====

Q. 16. Since it is not wrong to keep a record of wrongs when a person refuses to repent, and forgiveness is keeping no record of wrongs, then is it not true that it is sometimes good to withhold forgiveness?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Something to think about. Thank you all for helping me think this through and confirm what i thought might be the truth about how to forgive.

Should i forgive her? Should i forgive him? Yes, if they did not know what they were doing was wrong, or if they knew it was wrong but have shown by their words and actions that they have repented.

That’s how Jesus forgives; that’s how i will forgive, too.

Embrace the grace,

Soc

 

[Tweety]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ TWEETY }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

How is your mum doing? I hope she is feeling better, matey.

Hi Scoc,

Ever so sorry… have only been on the net to check my emails etc… and have only briefly dropped by CAF. Some days i can spend way tooooo much time here… I’m sure God understands, but there is housework to do, preparing dinner and lots of yummy treats to make!

My mum IS better! Thank you! Yes, yesterday she had to go back to the doctor, and she is finally improving. She had a bad case of bronchitis, and with her Bronchiastatis (i think that is how you spell it) it doesn’t help her. Winter is HERE! We had the coldest day in 50 years here on Monday for this time of the year. ** 9 degrees**!!! OUCH! it WAS cold… and we got to Minus 2 the other night… You guys are farenheit, we are celcius… It was 13 yesterday and nice and sunny…

How are you going with the forgiveness thread? Forgive me but i haven’t had a chance to read through what i have missed… There is one other lady at CAF who has had a tragedy and i have kept in touch with her just to make sure she is ok… Otherwise it has been boring! I will read it all… I am not as knowledged as you guys are, so i am not really much help…i just know what is in my heart.

Anyway, have a great night… and we shall endeavour to have a great day!

Cheers mate,

Tweets

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

So glad to hear your mum is doing better. God IS good ALL the time!

You have a good one too matey. Stay warm down under.

Take care,
Soc

 

[Tweety]

So glad to hear your mum is doing better. God IS good ALL the time!

You have a good one too matey. Stay warm down under.

Take care,
Soc

Thank you Soc…

It was our coldest day in June for 50 years on Monday, it was **9 **degrees!

Have been trying to go through my religious stuff to find things on forgiveness that mum has given me from all her teachings, but today is not a good day for finding things… I will keep on looking!

Take care and stay out of the SUN! Us Aussies have more sun cancer than anyone else in the world… LEARN from us!

Tweets

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Tweety:

Good! I look forward to hearing what your mum has taught you. Remember to ask God to help you think it through, too.

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to [her].

(James 1:5)
I’ll remember the sun screen next time i relax in the hammock with a good book. I’ve finished my book of Plato’s stories of Socrates, so i’ll have to find another.

Hey matey, you said you are a Charismatic Catholic. Have you ever listened to the worship music of Hill Songs of Australia?

 

[Tweety]

Tweety:

Good! I look forward to hearing what your mum has taught you. Remember to ask God to help you think it through, too.

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to [her].

(James 1:5)
I’ll remember the sun screen next time i relax in the hammock with a good book. I’ve finished my book of Plato’s stories of Socrates, so i’ll have to find another.

Hey matey, you said you are a Charismatic Catholic. Have you ever listened to the worship music of Hill Songs of Australia?

Hi Soc,

You can never learn enough on forgiveness!

I am not a CC, but my mum and aunty are. I go to the Charismatic Masses with mum, but i am not one myself. I do love it though… My parish is just your average Dominican Parish… ‘Holy Rosary.’ Alot of elderly and older people there, not too many of us young ones! (sshhh… i am 41, it’s a secret!) Our son will be going to school there, so that is my parish - close to home!

I have found a forgiveness prayer that mum gave me:

Lord, I forgive ____________________

Lord, I give You permission to take the judgment and bitterness out of my life. I do not want this in my life - I surrender it to You and ask You to remove it - to heal me where I have been wounded, to forgive me where I have sinned. I choose not to blame or hold the actions of others against them. I hereby surrender my right to be paid back for my loss, by the one who has sinned against me, and, in so doing I declare my trust in God, alone, as the Righteous Judge.

Father God, bless them in every way. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

As for Hillsong… They are very popular in Sydney, i believe they can have thousands attend one of their services. They were in the news a while back. I think, and i do say* think *that they upset their own congregation as the leaders of Hillsong made lots and lots and lots of money… Not 100% positive, but something very similar to that. They do have nice music! They are on tv on a Sunday morning, but so is the Catholic Mass! And Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn etc… we get them all!

Am getting ready for beddy byes… we have a big day tomorrow.

Hope you find something else to read… I need to read more!

God’s peace to you and your family mate!

Tweets

PS… Watch yourself in that hammock!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

To summarize, here is the line of reasoning you have all helped me discover that leads to the conclusions of what forgiveness is and how i should forgive1) Forgiveness is an act of love.(2) St. Paul lists several acts of love in 1 Corinthians 13. (3) In 1 Corinthians 13, he says love is patient, kind, etc.(4) All of the acts of love he lists can be shown to someone who has done nothing for which he needs to be forgiven, except one.(5) The only act of love he lists that cannot be shown to someone who has done nothing for which he needs to be forgiven is to show love that “keeps no record of wrongs”.(6) Therefore, each of the other acts of love are not forgiveness. Rather, they are some other way of loving. (7) 1st Conclusion: The only act of love that is forgiveness is the love that “keeps no record of wrongs”.(8) If i say i love with my words but do not show i love with my actions, i have not sincerely loved. Rather, i have shown i am a hypocrite.(9) If i say i forgive with my words but show i am keeping a record of wrongs with my actions, i have not sincerely forgiven. Rather, i have shown i am a hypocrite.(10) I show i am sincerely keeping no record of wrongs by pardoning a person for his sin, not holding the sin against the person, and not mentioning it again. (11) St. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 13 that “love … always trusts”. (12) It is not wise to trust everyone who wrongs me, but only those who regain my trust.(13) So, trust, unlike other acts of love, is conditional. (For example, i can be kind to people regardless of how they treat me, but it is not wise to trust a person who has wronged me and will likely do so again.)(14) It might be wise to trust a person who has wronged me if he first demonstrates by his words and actions that he has repented, and sincerely intends to not wrong me again. (15) Trusting a person is impossible if i still keep a record of his wrongs; that is, i cannot trust if i still hold the wrongs a person commits against him. (e.g., Instead of saying, “I cannot trust you because you wronged me” i must change my mind and say, “Now that you have shown you have repented and do not intend to wrong me again, i can trust you again.”)(16) Since forgiving a person is also keeping no record of wrongs, anyone who loves by forgiving will also love by trusting the person she forgives. (17) Since restoring my trust in a person requires that he first repents, forgiving a person who has wronged me and knows it was wrong requires that he repents.(18) Jesus did not forgive everyone who wronged him. (For example, in Matthew 23, He did not forgive those He rebuked who refused to repent.)(19) We are to forgive as Jesus forgave, for St. Paul tells us to “be imitators of God” (Ephesians 5:1; cf. 1 Thessalonians 1:6) and he writes: “Forgive as the Lord forgave you” (Colossians 3:13).(20) We should imitate Jesus by forgiving as He forgave; and not forgiving as He sometimes did not forgive.(21) On the cross Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” (Luke 23:34).(22) When people are not culpable for their sins (e.g., when they do not know what they are doing is wrong) we should forgive them as Jesus forgave those who were not culpable.(23) Those who were culpable and yet refused to repent, Jesus rebuked rather than forgave. That is, He kept a record of their wrongs (cf. Matthew 23).(24) Jesus also taught us to rebuke people when they sin and forgive them if they repent, for he said: "“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him” (Luke 17:3).(25) Rebuking a person for his sin and withholding forgiveness from him until he stops refusing to repent might convince him to change his behavior and restore his relationship with you and with God.(26) Forgiving a person who still refuses to repent will not compel him to change his behavior and might lead him to turn his back on God forever.Therefore:2nd Conclusion: We should forgive like we trust, which is conditionally. The conditions a person should meet before we forgive him are that he should either (1) not be culpable for his sin or (2) repent of his sin and demonstrate he has repented by his words and deeds.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hi Soc,

You can never learn enough on forgiveness!

I am not a CC, but my mum and aunty are. I go to the Charismatic Masses with mum, but i am not one myself. I do love it though… My parish is just your average Dominican Parish… ‘Holy Rosary.’ Alot of elderly and older people there, not too many of us young ones! (sshhh… i am 41, it’s a secret!) Our son will be going to school there, so that is my parish - close to home!

I have found a forgiveness prayer that mum gave me:

Lord, I forgive ____________________

Lord, I give You permission to take the judgment and bitterness out of my life. I do not want this in my life - I surrender it to You and ask You to remove it - to heal me where I have been wounded, to forgive me where I have sinned. I choose not to blame or hold the actions of others against them. I hereby surrender my right to be paid back for my loss, by the one who has sinned against me, and, in so doing I declare my trust in God, alone, as the Righteous Judge.

Father God, bless them in every way. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

As for Hillsong… They are very popular in Sydney, i believe they can have thousands attend one of their services. They were in the news a while back. I think, and i do say* think *that they upset their own congregation as the leaders of Hillsong made lots and lots and lots of money… Not 100% positive, but something very similar to that. They do have nice music! They are on tv on a Sunday morning, but so is the Catholic Mass! And Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn etc… we get them all!

Am getting ready for beddy byes… we have a big day tomorrow.

Hope you find something else to read… I need to read more!

God’s peace to you and your family mate!

Tweets

PS… Watch yourself in that hammock!

Thanks, Tweety! I’ll contemplate the meaning of mum’s prayer and let you know what God shows me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I like this one

Hillsongs of Australia
"Show me Your ways"

Show me Your ways.
*That I may walk with You
*
*Show me Your ways
I put my hope in You
*

(Chorus)

*The cry of my heart
Is to love You more

To live with the
Touch of Your hand

Stronger each day
Show me Your ways
*

(Repeat verse & chorus 3 times)

(Repeat chorus)

Stronger each day
Show me Your ways

and this one

Hillsongs of Australia
"Shout to the Lord"

*My Jesus, My Savior
Lord there is none like You
All of my days
I want to praise
The wonders of Your mighty love

My Comfort, My Shelter
Tower of refuge and strength
Let every breath
And all that I am
Never cease to worship You

Shout to the Lord
All the earth
Let us sing
Power and majesty
Praise to the King
Mountains bow down
And the seas will roar
At the sound of Your Name

I sing for joy at the work of Your hands
Forever I’ll love you
Forever I’ll stand
Nothing compares to the promise I have in You

My Jesus, My Saviour
Lord there is none like You
All of my days
I want to praise
The wonders of Your mighty love

Your my comfort (My comfort)
And my shelter(My Shelter)
Your my Tower of refuge and strength
let every breath
All that I am
Never cease to worship you

Shout to the Lord
All the earth
Let us sing
Power and majesty
Praise to the King
Mountains bow down
And the seas will roar
At the sound of Your Name

I sing for joy at the work of Your hands
Forever I’ll love you
Forever I’ll stand
Nothing compares to the promise I have in You

Shout to the Lord
All the earth
Let us sing
Power and majesty
Praise to the King
Mountains bow down
And the seas will roar
At the sound of Your Name

I sing for joy at the work of Your hands
Forever I’ll love you
Forever I’ll stand
Nothing compares to the promise I have in You*

There are more here:

lyricsdownload.com/hillsongs-australia-lyrics.html

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I have found a forgiveness prayer that mum gave me:

Lord, I forgive ____________________

Lord, I give You permission to take the judgment and bitterness out of my life. I do not want this in my life - I surrender it to You and ask You to remove it - to heal me where I have been wounded, to forgive me where I have sinned. I choose not to blame or hold the actions of others against them. I hereby surrender my right to be paid back for my loss, by the one who has sinned against me, and, in so doing I declare my trust in God, alone, as the Righteous Judge.

Father God, bless them in every way. In Jesus’ name, Amen.

…

I like mum’s prayer, Tweety. I agree with it’s premise that i should not harbor bitterness or desire revenge. A few words of God that come to mind are:

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. (Hebrews 12:14-15)and

“In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. (Ephesians 4:26-27)

andAnd do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.(Ephesians 4:30-32)Yes, i agree i should be slow to get angry and quick to forgive. I know i should not harbor resentment. When someone wrongs me i should ask God to make me better, not bitter, for the pain the person caused. I think this is the spirit of mum’s prayer.

There are times, always tragic times, when people who have wronged me, and know what they did is wrong, nonetheless refuse to apologize and refuse to show any repentance in their words or deeds. I’ve asked God how to love such people, who i still meet face to face from time to time.

The answer He gave me was to remind me of 1 Corinthians 13, and to give me a desire to ask others what St. Paul means. Those who refuse to be forgiven i should love by being

• patient
• kind
• not envious
• not boastful
• not proud
• not rude
• not selfish
• not easily angered
• not keeping a record of wrongs
• not delighting in evil
• rejoicing with the truth
• always protecting
• always hoping
• always persevering
• never failing to love
  So i look them straight in the eyes and say hello with a compassionate tone and without a frown, always hoping they will stop to talk with me and tell me they were wrong. It’s not with a fake smile that i greet them but with a look of hope in my eyes. My hope is that they will begin to apologize and as soon as the words, “I’m sorry” come out of their mouths, i will say, “Hey, that’s OK. Why don’t you come over for a cookout or why don’t we make a trip to Starbucks today?”

I’ve rebuked them gently and respectfully for their sins, so they know how i feel about what they have done. They also see that i’m doing my best to not be bitter by bringing it up again and again. However, from the looks on their faces, i know i remind them of the wrongs for which they refuse to repent. It’s not my treatment of them that offends them, it is the truth.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jesus said"Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."(John 3:20)

and"The world … hates me because I testify that what it does is evil."(John 7:7)

and"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."(John 15:18)

and"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."(John 15:19)Therefore, i speak the truth as best as i understand it wherever i go. I don’t claim to be wise, for there is only One who is! I am just a lover of wisdom and try learn and apply all i can, as Socrates did. Like Socrates who was hated by some and loved by others for speaking the truth, i am either loved or hated by all with whom i speak. Those who hated Socrates had him sentenced to death by drinking poison.

Like Jesus who was hated by some and loved by others for speaking the truth, i am either loved or hated by all with whom i speak. Those who hated Jesus had him sentenced to death by crucifixion.

Did you notice, Tweety, that as soon as i raised the possibility that those who say they forgive with their thoughts but not with their actions are hypocrites people stopped posting replies to this discussion thread? Only you are left. Why? Is it not that i am hated for speaking the truth by some, but not by you?

Since i speak the truth, i am hated by many, but not by you. Why is that Tweety? Could it be because you do not hate the truth? Of course you do not hate the truth, you love Him! and Jesus said He is the truth.

So, what do you think, matey? Is it OK to love in every way you should every one that you meet? Is it OK to love them by not harboring resentment and yet still keeping a record of their wrongs and not trusting them when they refuse to stop sinning? Is it OK to pray daily that they will come to their senses and escape the trap of the devil who has taken them captive to do what he wants? Is it OK to never stop hoping that they will repent and show their repentance by their words and actions so that you can forgive them and trust them again? Do you believe, as Jesus taught, that it takes two to forgive?

If it is too personal a question to ask or one for which you need to think about and ask God for guidance, you do not have to answer.

 

[JaneFrances]

Did you notice, Tweety, that as soon as i raised the possibility that those who say they forgive with their thoughts but not with their actions are hypocrites people stopped posting replies to this discussion thread?

This is not at all when I stopped posting replies, Socrates.

Only you are left. Why? Is it not that i am hated for speaking the truth by some, but not by you?

Please do not lose sleep imagining that because of your love for truth, the truth haters hate you. Lovers of truth needn’t be lovers of quasi-classical methodology, passive aggressive argumentation, and alter-egos.

Since i speak the truth, i am hated by many, but not by you.

Hate is not the same as fatigue.

So, what do you think, matey? Is it OK to love in every way you should every one that you meet? Is it OK to love them by not harboring resentment and yet still keeping a record of their wrongs and not trusting them when they refuse to stop sinning? Is it OK to pray daily that they will come to their senses and escape the trap of the devil who has taken them captive to do what he wants? Is it OK to never stop hoping that they will repent and show their repentance by their words and actions so that you can forgive them and trust them again? Do you believe, as Jesus taught, that it takes two to forgive?

For your edification, Pope John Paul’s encyclical on Mercy, Dives in Misericordia, can be found here: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_30111980_dives-in-misericordia_en.html

To be clear, the main problem I have with your position is that it requires you to assume you can, seemingly always, rightly discern the sufficiency of another person’s repentance and/or culpability enough to withhold your mercy until someone comes to you with his tail between his legs begging for your forgiveness. Forgiveness, as you apprehend, is indeed a relational action. However, just as God’s merciful initiative prompts the soul to repentance and full reconciliation, we are called to extend mercy beyond our human inclinations and become generous distributors of God’ manifold grace. The undeniable and essential conditions for forgiveness, including recompense and reparation, are not directed by your chronological construct. Our loving Father graciously exemplifies the Truth of mercy preceding and prompting conversion and reconciliation.
Peace.

Pope John Paul II’s words are very instructive:

For this reason, the Church must consider it one of her principal duties-at every stage of history and especially in our modern age-to proclaim and to introduce into life the mystery of mercy, supremely revealed in Jesus Christ. Not only for the Church herself as the community of believers but also in a certain sense for all humanity, this mystery is the source of a life different from the life which can be built by man, who is exposed to the oppressive forces of the threefold concupiscence active within him.128 It is precisely in the name of this mystery that Christ teaches us to forgive always. How often we repeat the words of the prayer which He Himself taught us, asking “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us,” which means those who are guilty of something in our regard129 It is indeed difficult to express the profound value of the attitude which these words describe and inculcate. How many things these words say to every individual about others and also about himself. The consciousness of being trespassers against each other goes hand in hand with the call to fraternal solidarity, which St. Paul expressed in his concise exhortation to "forbear one another in love."130 What a lesson of humility is to be found here with regard to man, with regard both to one’s neighbor and to oneself. What a school of good will for daily living, in the various conditions of our existence If we were to ignore this lesson, what would remain of any “humanist” program of life and education?

Christ emphasizes so insistently the need to forgive others that when Peter asked Him how many times he should forgive his neighbor He answered with the symbolic number of "seventy times seven,"131 meaning that he must be able to forgive everyone every time. It is obvious that such a generous requirement of forgiveness does not cancel out the objective requirements of justice. Properly understood, justice constitutes, so to speak, the goal of forgiveness. In no passage of the Gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence towards evil, towards scandals, towards injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness.

 

[DrPiano]

(note before I begin - I’m splitting this post into 2 parts because it is “too long” - so read to the end of both posts before responding)

So I got to about post 200 then skipped to the end because I really couldn’t take any more of the linguistic nitpicking. I’ve read Socrates (the real one) and I didn’t like his style much either (it isn’t really looking for answers, it is trying to trip other people up by making them contradict themselves) - but that is beside the point.

I’d like to share a couple of thoughts I have on forgiveness, drawing from what I’ve learned in my years on this earth - both through experience and through what other, wiser people have taught me.

First - What is Forgiveness? Forgiveness is letting go of your personal “right” to revenge or retribution and giving it to God, who is truly the only one who can exact it. It is human nature to want to get back at someone who has hurt you - to repay them evil for evil. Forgiveness is letting go of that and giving it to God. (see, for example, Rom 12:19-21). So Forgiveness begins with an act of the will - an inner decision.

As you pointed out early on, however, words (and thoughts) require fruit - so what is the fruit (the actions) of forgiveness? I think these start at their utmost with prayer for the other person. This can take a variety of forms but at their core ought to be to pray for their soul - that they will be reconciled to God. Ultimately forgiveness results in praying for good for the person who has hurt you.

Forgiveness is NOT reconciliation. Letting go of my anger, my resentment, my desire for revenge and replacing them with a true desire for the good of the other person does not require that I allow an unrepentant person (or an unchanged person) into a place where he or she can hurt me again. However, forgiveness results in the willingness to go through the process of reconciliation with the person who has hurt me if that person wishes to do so and if that person comes and repents.

Also, I would say that forgiveness not only has some benefit for the person who harmed another, it has great benefit for the person who was harmed. Without forgiveness you are left with bitterness that ultimately consumes you. Harboring unforgiveness is akin to drinking a bottle of poison and hoping that it will kill someone else.

An example from my own life. I have a relative who I used to be fairly close to. However in the past several years she has done some very harsh things to my family. I don’t really want to go into the details, but she has hurt my mother and father and I very deeply. She does not think that she has done anything wrong and is nowhere close to being repentant, nor does she seek reconciliation or fellowship. My mom and I especially have struggled with forgiving her and what that means. For months I lived with a deep-set anger with this relative. I hated her and wanted nothing more than for her to die unrepentant and be punished for all eternity. Admittedly, this is not a very charitable or loving thing to desire. Now I am working (note - this is in present tense) to be able to pray for her good. I am in the process of forgiving. I doubt she will ever be repentant or sorry. But even if she isn’t, I want my offer of forgiveness to be there.

(to be continued…)