Forgiveness FAQ

[Philthy]

I think i understand you, Philthy. Are you saying that Jesus instructs us to pray that God will forgive us the same way that we forgive others?

I think he does.
When you look at the soteriological consequences it gets a little bit more complicated though. What Jesus actually says is that IF we dont forgive others, THEN God won’t forgive us. This is a hard saying, no? I think we would both agree that we will fall short of this tall order viewed in the strictest sense. It seems to imply that if we died with harboring some hardness of heart toward another that God will judge among the unforgiven. In some theologies such a statement must be immediately reduced to pure symbolism or irrelevance as it seemingly contradicts the notions of sola Fide, OSAS, and the perfection of Christs Cross. I dont see it that way, though - there is another way those sins can be forgiven. But that is another topic…

 

[trogiah]

Jim:

My pastor taught about forgiveness using Matthew 18. What passage did your priest talk about, or what illustration did he use?

When i think about this parable, it seems like the standard of forgiveness is more than just forgiving as much as you want to be forgiven. Maybe it is forgiving as much as you have been forgiven by God. You and i might deserve the forgiveness of someone who sins as much as we do, but God, who never sinned against us; God, who let His One and Only Son die for us; God who has every right to let us suffer His wrath forgave you and me. That’s a degree of forgiveness i can never match! If i refuse to forgive someone who repents, i must be insane or have no idea how much God loves me. I like how this Bible teacher to whom i listen on the radio from time to time puts it: “You and i can only love to the degree that we are loved.”

I would go so far as to guess that someone who refuses to forgive a person who repents cannot sincerely call himself a Christian.

Soc,

The Scripture we heard and that the priest preached from was the story of David when he was confronted for his adultery and for having the husband of Bathsheba killed in combat. David was sorry (truly) and he was forgiven.

Also the story of the woman who washed Jesus’s feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair - while the Pharisee at whose house he was eating did not even give him water to wash his feet.

Overall the lesson was that those who are repentant are forgiven. Those who have much to repent will be forgiven much (if they repent) and will likely have a greater love for God.

It makes sense to me and seems related to the conclusions you have drawn.

Regarding your last conclusion, I think it is worth considering that some people are trying to follow Jesus even when they still have a lot of resentment built up. Some might say they are Christians if they are at least looking for the ability to forgive another.

I will be out of computer touch again, this time for a while. Maybe I’ll check back in in a week or two.

Jim

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc,

The Scripture we heard and that the priest preached from was the story of David when he was confronted for his adultery and for having the husband of Bathsheba killed in combat. David was sorry (truly) and he was forgiven.

Also the story of the woman who washed Jesus’s feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair - while the Pharisee at whose house he was eating did not even give him water to wash his feet.

Overall the lesson was that those who are repentant are forgiven. Those who have much to repent will be forgiven much (if they repent) and will likely have a greater love for God.

It makes sense to me and seems related to the conclusions you have drawn.

Regarding your last conclusion, I think it is worth considering that some people are trying to follow Jesus even when they still have a lot of resentment built up. Some might say they are Christians if they are at least looking for the ability to forgive another.

I will be out of computer touch again, this time for a while. Maybe I’ll check back in in a week or two.

Jim

Excellent thoughts Jim. I shall miss your (name removed by moderator)ut and look forward to your return.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think he does.

Yes, Phil, i think He does, too. I that sense, we both believe this is the truth, for the word believe has at least three meanings:

1. 
   *]To think or guess something is true.
   *]To know something is true.
   *]To put your trust in the truth you know.
   Definition (1) is not enough for me, however. I’m going to keep striving to know why what i think is true until somehow attain definition (3). I want the kind of certainty i can trust.
   
   Like the indian in Mel Gibson’s Apocalypto, i’m not going to give up. I’m going to keep fleeing the evil spears and arrows of ignorance, even the Jaguar of the devil himself, enduring the wounds and exhaustion, until i run all the way to the one i love. Her name is Wisdom, and she is beautiful and worth every effort, and any amount of suffering, to embrace.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… What Jesus actually says is that IF we dont forgive others, THEN God won’t forgive us. This is a hard saying, no? I think we would both agree that we will fall short of this tall order viewed in the strictest sense. It seems to imply that if we died with harboring some hardness of heart toward another that God will judge among the unforgiven. …

Yes, it might imply that. It might imply something else, too. I’m reminded of what Jesus said:“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.”(Matthew 23:2-3)Would you say, Phil, that you and i, if we want to forgive like God, should be the type of people who, as Jesus said, “practice what they preach”?

 

[Philthy]

Yes, it might imply that. It might imply something else, too. I’m reminded of what Jesus said:“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.”(Matthew 23:2-3)Would you say, Phil, that you and i, if we want to forgive like God, should be the type of people who, as Jesus said, “practice what they preach”?

Yes. “…let us love not in word or speech, but in deed and truth” 1John 3:18

Talk is cheap, Soc. To paraphrase St Francis of Assisi: “Preach the Gospel always - only use words when necessary.”

Phil

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes. “…let us love not in word or speech, but in deed and truth” 1John 3:18

Talk is cheap, Soc. To paraphrase St Francis of Assisi: “Preach the Gospel always - only use words when necessary.”

Phil

I think i like St. Francis! Yes, i agree with St. Francis that hypocrisy is not an option for any sincere follower of Christ.

Would you also say, Phil, that God himself is no hypocrite? He is not the kind to say, “Do as i say, not as i do” is He?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Waiting for Phil’s reply.
||
||
||
V

 

[clmowry]

I can’t believe this dialogue is still going on and basically still hasn’t progressed an inch.

Chuck

runs for the hills for fear that he get’s caught up in the discussion again

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

LOL!

Who was that masked man?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

U R welcome to post a reply, Chuck. You can post as many or as few as you like. There is no need to feel obligated to stick around.

I’m interested in knowing why you think i am no closer to the truth than when i began.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Or, if you are willing Chuck, i’d like to give you a brief summation of what i think forgiving is so that you can tell me how far i still have to go to get to the true essence of forgiveness. There is no obligation to invest (or if you prefer to waste) too much time with me.

 

[clmowry]

Now I would never consider you a waste of time. Don’t be silly.

It appears to me that your still trying to figure out how to forgive “just like Christ”. Which I’m pretty sure is where you started.

But perhaps a summary of where you are currently at would help.

Chuck

Or, if you are willing Chuck, i’d like to give you a brief summation of what i think forgiving is so that you can tell me how far i still have to go to get to the true essence of forgiveness. There is no obligation to invest (or if you prefer to waste) too much time with me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thank you, Chuck!

My current understanding of forgiveness is that it is a specific class of love. For i know that of all i say, think and do, only some of these acts are loving as Jesus Himself loves.

Some acts are neither loving nor unloving, such as sleeping and eating. Other acts are unloving and sinful and those of which i must immediately confess and repent. These unloving and neutral acts are represented as the black ellipse in the image that follows.

Some acts are loving as Jesus loves. Not all these acts can be rightly said to be merciful or forgiving, however, for not everyone i love has done something wrong for which i am aware i should forgive them. These acts are represented as the red ellipse in the following image.

Some acts constitute showing mercy, for although some ways of loving as Jesus loves are not examples of mercy, some other ways of loving as Jesus loves are merciful. Another way of putting it is that all mercy is love, but not all love is mercy. Illustrations of these might be giving to the poor or showing leniency to someone who has sinned against me or being ready to forgive someone (these are all definitions of mercy that can be found in most dictionaries). These are represented as the yellow ellipse.

Forgiveness, as you might guess, is a specific class (or kind) of mercy. For just as all mercy is love but not all love is mercy, so too all forgiveness is mercy, but not all mercy is forgiveness. Forgiveness is taking mercy a step further by granting a full pardon to the person who has sinned (for to pardon and cancel a debt are definitions of forgiveness in most dictionaries). It is a more beautiful and complete and desirable type of mercy. While mercy is loving the unlovable by meeting their needs, being lenient, and being ready to forgive, forgiveness takes this a step further by actually forgiving (or pardoning) a person for his sin. It is cancelling the debt the person owes. It results in a restoration or establishment of a closer relationship with the person. It results in restoring or establishing trust in that person. An example might be a priest who molests a child, who is finally forgiven by the child after the priest repents, goes through years of counseling, apologizes to the one he violated and makes a sincere and public commitment to God and to the child and to others to never commit the sin again.

One might say it often (though certainly not always) takes two to forgive, for the one forgiven often must repent of his sin, and prove he has repented by his words and deeds, before he should be forgiven. This is how God the Father forgives; this is how we should love like Him in the way we forgive others.

http://www.geocities.com/chris4dayspring/love_mercy_forgiveness.jpg

 

[guanophore]

The condition the Roman executioners met was that they did not know the gravity of their sin. They thought the one they were torturing was guilty and deserved His punishment. They were not responsible for their sin because they had no idea that what they were doing was wrong.

I think this is not right. If they were not responsible for their sin, why would they need forgiveness? Also, the scriptures teach us that we are still responsible for sins done in ignorance, though less so than those committed intentionally.

As St. Paul wrote

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

(1 Corinthians 2:8)

It was not the “rulers” that were putting in the nails.

Jesus also gives us insight into how God forgives, for He rebuked His enemies with this warning:

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”

(John 9:41)
The self-righteous religious leaders who opposed Jesus knew He received His power from God, so they knew full well what they were doing was wrong when they arranged for Him to be crucified.

I will agree that the one with knowledge has a greater sin, but those lacking knowledge are still in need of forgiveness.

Eph 2:1-4
2:1 And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so** we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."**

The Roman guards met the condition to be forgiven by not being culpable, the hypocritical religious enemies of Jesus did not. I think God holds us accountable for what we know, not for what we don’t know, don’t you Philthy?

They were less culpable, but still children of wrath. John 19:10-11
11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore **he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.” **

 

[guanophore]

Philthy:

Do you think God forgives conditionally or unconditionally? That is, do you think He requires you and i to meet conditions (such as being unaware of our sin or repenting of our sin) before He forgives us?

The expiation available to us is unconditional. He died once for all, nailing the bond (warrant) to the cross. However the awareness of sin is progressive as we grown in holiness. He does call us to repent from out sins, as well as do a number of other things. “Bear fruit that befits repentance”. I am not sure that could be a “condition” as much as an effect.

Luke 7:44-8:1
44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48 And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?” 50 And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Did she meet conditions?

 

[guanophore]

Yes and No.

**We CANNOT forgive as God forgives **in the fullest sense. God is worthy of judging all of creation. God’s forgiveness communicates grace and restores the relationship between Himself and the sinner which is eternal life.

Why would Jesus command us to do something that is not possible? If he did not intend for grace to flow to heal and restore, why did He tell us to forgive 70 x 7?

 

[guanophore]

Hello, I am byrdele and please to meet all of you.

Welcome to the forum byrdele.

My brother hurt me very badly by blurting some hateful things out about my personality and my quest to get where I am today (he feels I have always got what I wanted - wrong. I have always got what I needed, though, and am happy with that because I don’t dwell on the disappointments and the failures - I learn from them). OK, I sent him back a detailed email in which I bring up everything he said and show him that that is not the case. He has not responded. What brought all this on actually was the way he was treating my elderly mom.

Do we have the same brother?

I do forgive him because he is stressed out. He also has recently married and is torn between his new wife, a love for which he did wait for 50 years. so obviously he is going to have a different take on the situation than those of us who were married earlier and whose spouses are supportive of our efforts with Mom.

I understand that you are looking for mitigating cirucumstances. This is not a bad thing, but you must forgive him because God in Christ forgave you, not because he is stressed, or has other obligations. When he says mean things to you, he is really talking more about himself than he is about you. He is jealous, angry, bitter or resentful, and is trying to put his condition on you.

It is easy for him to see me, in the superior financial position I am, in a twisted way - in fact, it’s human. But obviously these ideas have been simmering for some time. I know my brother - he once confided in me about my sis and then exploded on her with exactly what he had said to me, including the “you’ve always got what you wanted”. My sis has not, btw, and what she has gotten she has worked very hard to get. And she has also taken the unwanted jobs to do what she had to do.

He is expressing his unhappiness that he does not feel he has gotten what he wanted. He is failing to be thankful in all circumstances, and to accept his lot in life as that which the Lord has given to him as a gift. As I think Philthy posted, forgivenss and acceptance helps us to grow in holiness, and is part of our growth. I think he is really angry and unforgiving of God that he has not gotten what he wants, and sounds like he is taking it out on the siblings.

Now, finally, the question: I forgive him and his wife, but I don’t really want to be around him or have communications with him. Even if he does get around to apologising, it will really be for blurting out what he was really thinking, not for somehow remembering me just sliding up the golden stairway to success rather than working for it and doing the things he refused to do. In other words, he resents me and does not like me. I don’t like him right now. I love him and pray for him, but just don’t want to be around someone who does not like me. Is this wrong? Can I forgive someone and still avoid him because he has revealed his contempt for me?

It sounds like it is not so much him you don’ tlike, but his behavior and attitudes. Forgiveness does not require that you put yourself in a position to be abused. On the other hand, if you avoid him, you will also lose an opportunity to manifest healing grace toward him, and show him how one can embrace suffering, be joyful in sacrifice, and let go of resentment. How you best conduct yourself with him in order to be light and salt must be guided by the HS, so just pray about it. For now, forgiving and praying for him lays the foundation for the future.

Also, there is my mom. He has already upset her by making these suggestions to her - she already is sensitive about “being a burden” (which she is not) and I’ve told him how she has opened up to me about it in the past and said that she wished she were dead rather than “be a burden” and cried for a half hour at time. Please help me out. Thank you.

In Christ

I think you should copy this whole post and put it in the Christian Living forum where you will also get some good feedback.

Suffering is there for us to have a chance to practice virtue. Your mom can join her sufferings with those of Christ. When she does that, they becomre a source of sanctification instead of burden. She can offer her burdens for the sake of her son, and others who suffer, and pray that he will release his resentments.

 

[clmowry]

Yep. Still right where you started from a practical stand point, but
with a much fuller articulation of a definition for forgiveness, which should, I think, get you to the right final destination.

Though you seem to have come to accept that forgiveness is a form of love you hold (I think rather stubornly) to the position that forgiveness is conditional, and that somehow it would be “unloving” to forgive someone who did not repent.

It seems to me that tor some predetermined reason it is important to you that this be the truth.

You seem to take the position that even though Christ tells us we should Love all, even our enemies, this does not apply when it comes to forgiveness.

Perhaps it would help if you focus on where Christ explicitly puts such a limitation on forgiving our neighbors.

He explicitly says we should Love all but you override this with implied interpretation that forgiveness is conditional.

I’m not sure why that is, but that’s the way I see it.

Chuck

 

[Philthy]

I think i like St. Francis! Yes, i agree with St. Francis that hypocrisy is not an option for any sincere follower of Christ.

Would you also say, Phil, that God himself is no hypocrite? He is not the kind to say, “Do as i say, not as i do” is He?

Definitely not a hypocrit - “there is no duplicity in Him”. His yes means yes and His no means no. God became one of us to do His will as one of us and become, for us, the ransom for our sin.
Now when He says “Do as I do” we can know that He is not a hypocrit.