Forgiveness FAQ

[Philthy]

Why would Jesus command us to do something that is not possible? If he did not intend for grace to flow to heal and restore, why did He tell us to forgive 70 x 7?

You fail to distinguish between God’s forgiveness and interhuman forgiveness. When God forgives it ACTUALLY removes the guilt of sin. We, as individuals, can’t do that when we forgive another.
That is what I was attempting to distinguish between with my comments. I’ll give you an example:

Bill is married to Sue.
Bill has an adulterous affair.
Bill tells Sue of the affair and asks her forgiveness.
Sue learns of the affair and “forgives” Bill

Question - At this point, has Bill been reconciled to God through Sue’s forgiveness? The answer is no. Sue does not judge souls - that is God’s job.

Bill, moved by Sue’s compassion recognizes his need to confess his sin before God and does so through the Sacrament of Reconciliation and receives absolution.

Question - At this point has Bill been reconciled to God? Yes, because the forgiveness of sins won by Christ on our behalf requires the sinner to confess his sin and ask forgiveness from God.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yep. Still right where you started from a practical stand point, but
with a much fuller articulation of a definition for forgiveness, which should, I think, get you to the right final destination.

Though you seem to have come to accept that forgiveness is a form of love you hold (I think rather stubornly) to the position that forgiveness is conditional, and that somehow it would be “unloving” to forgive someone who did not repent.

It seems to me that tor some predetermined reason it is important to you that this be the truth.

You seem to take the position that even though Christ tells us we should Love all, even our enemies, this does not apply when it comes to forgiveness.

Perhaps it would help if you focus on where Christ explicitly puts such a limitation on forgiving our neighbors.

He explicitly says we should Love all but you override this with implied interpretation that forgiveness is conditional.

I’m not sure why that is, but that’s the way I see it.

Chuck

Chuck:

Yes, i would say that most love is unconditional, but some love is conditional. For example, St. Paul writes that “Love … always trusts” so trust is a kind of love just like forgiveness. It would be unwise for me to trust someone who does not deserve my trust because he is untrustworthy.

*Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. **(1 Corinthians 13:4-7)*If we replace forgiving with trusting in the picture that follows, the nature of trust becomes clear. For some trust can be in ideas or things instead of people, which might be that trust which overlaps the black (and the black are things that i do that are not acts of love). Some trust can rightly be called acts of love, though not all trust is showing mercy. This is shown by the trust that overlaps the red. Still other trust might be considered acts of mercy, which are shown by the the trust which overlaps the yellow.

Now, i can love a person without showing mercy and without trusting him, for some people we love have done nothing wrong to us to require our mercy. This is represented by the area (C). These people i should always love unconditionally, for that is how Jesus loves them. I can also love people by showing mercy to them. These people might or might not be people who have sinned against me. Yet i show them mercy by being compassionate, being kind, meeting their needs, being lenient, and so forth. This love is also unconditional and is represented by area (B). Finally, there are people i love conditionally by trusting them only if they meet the conditions to show themselves trustworthy. These conditional love is shown by area (A).

Chuck, i don’t want you to walk away in anger. Please let us reason together. Do you agree that at least some love is conditional? Does it sound reasonable for me to show the love called trust only to those who meet the conditions for me to trust them? When it comes to the love called trust, Christ does not want you and me to give this kind of love to all, regardless of their trustworthiness. What does your reason and the Holy Spirit tell you?

http://www.geocities.com/chris4dayspring/Love_Mercy_Trust2.JPG

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Definitely not a hypocrit - “there is no duplicity in Him”. His yes means yes and His no means no. God became one of us to do His will as one of us and become, for us, the ransom for our sin.
Now when He says “Do as I do” we can know that He is not a hypocrit.

Yes, i completely agree, Phil!

So how does God the Father do forgiveness? Does He forgive those who repent (and perhaps those who are unaware of their sins), or does He forgive all, regardless of whether they repent?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… I will agree that the one with knowledge has a greater sin, but those lacking knowledge are still in need of forgiveness. **… **

I agree too, Guano. What you say makes sense. Sin is still sin, even if a person who commits it is unaware. Both the evil that people do in ignorance and the evil that people do with full knowledge of its immoral nature requires forgiveness from God. I’m not sure how God forgives those who do not know they have done wrong, so i will not ask that you try to explain how God forgives them, either.

However, those who do know they have done wrong and curse God and refuse to repent, do you believe that God forgives them? Take the Mel Gibson movie Apocalypto. In the movie were evil men who raped and tortured and killed innocent victims (including children) again and again. They felt no remorse, and even pride in their actions. Do you think that God would forgive such men who refuse to repent?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:Originally Posted by Philthy forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif Yes and No.

***We CANNOT forgive as God forgives ***in the fullest sense. God is worthy of judging all of creation. God’s forgiveness communicates grace and restores the relationship between Himself and the sinner which is eternal life.
Why would Jesus command us to do something that is not possible? If he did not intend for grace to flow to heal and restore, why did He tell us to forgive 70 x 7?

Guano and Phil:

You both make excellent points. The purpose of God’s forgiveness is to restore our relationship with Him, as Phil says. Jesus would not ask us to forgive in such a way as to restore a relationship with (and trust in) a person if it were impossible, as Guano says.

The question for which i am seeking an answer is what does God require the person who sins against Him to do before He forgives that person and restores His relationship with the person? Likewise, what do i have to require a person who sins against me to do before i forgive the person and restore my relationship and trust in her?

 

[Philthy]

Yes, i completely agree, Phil!

So how does God the Father do forgiveness? Does He forgive those who repent (and perhaps those who are unaware of their sins), or does He forgive all, regardless of whether they repent?

Im not sure. Why do you ask?

 

[clmowry]

I’m not angry.

I’m saddened, and perhaps a little frustrated that I cannot better articulate my position.

Not forgiving those who do not repent and ask for forgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to be healed because you’ve done so.

We are “told” to forgive, “unconditionally”, not just for the sake of the forgiven, but for our own sake.

Interestingly how we “trust” is one of those areas I pointed out early in our conversation as an aspect of love that is not necessarily to be “unconditionally” given.

I think the rest of scripture helps prove the point.

We are repeatedly told in scripture to “Trust in the Lord” in fact, I can’t think of a single place in scripture where it says we should “trust one another.”

In Proverbs, Chapter 20 it is at least implied that “none are worthy of trust”? In Psalm 118: “Better to take refuge in the LORD than to put one’s trust in mortals. Better to take refuge in the LORD than to put one’s trust in princes.”

In Micah Chapter 7: “Put no trust in a friend, have no confidence in a companion; Against her who lies in your bosom guard the portals of your mouth.”

Or in 1 John Chapter 4: “Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

Yet at the same time, we are told in Matthew Chapter 5: “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.”

So I think it should be clear that all of those aspects of Love listed in Chapter 13 do not follow the same set of “rules”.

So if you are looking to discern the truth of forgiveness from scripture we cannot universally ascribe the commands relative to “Love” to the list of attributes of “Love” found in Chapter 13.

Instead we must focus on what we are told explicitly in Scripture (and if you are willing to accept it from Church tradition) about forgiveness.

(to be cont.)

(As a side note, do you think that Corinthians Chapter 13 might be speaking particularly of Love of God? The whole chapter focuses on the Theological Virtues which are of course focused on God. Does this imply that the “trusts all things, hopes all things” portion of Corinthians pertains to Love of God as opposed to of each other?)

 

[clmowry]

Alas I cannot find any explicit verse that say “forgive without condition” so perhaps I overstate my case, however:

In Sirach Chapter 28 we read: “The vengeful will suffer the LORD’S vengeance, for he remembers their sins in detail. Forgive your neighbor’s injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven.”

Mark Chapter 11: “When you stand to pray, forgive anyone against whom you have a grievance, so that your heavenly Father may in turn forgive you your transgressions."

I see no condition placed on forgiveness any of these verses. In fact in Mark it seem implicit to me that their can be no limits. If “when we stand to pray” we are to “forgive anyone” then how are we to require their repentance before we do so? If they never ask for our forgiveness then can we never pray to be forgiven again?

And then there is the very pragmatic matter from Matthew Chapter 6: “* If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.”

Why would we place conditions on our own forgiveness?

In places like Luke Chapter 17 your read implied conditions on forgiveness where I see no conditions, but instead see explicit requirements to forgive repeatedly.

Now Matthew Chapter 18 would seem to implicitly support your position, but I think it is clear from its context that these verses are more about our obligation to correct others in fraternal love, and working with Our Lord towards the sanctification of others. Even more specifically I think this section is about the obligation that the Church Leadership has in the area of forgiveness. This is most clear I think because of verse 18. The power bind and loose does not belong to all, does it?

(cont.)

 

[clmowry]

And from the catechism:

2842 This “as” is not unique in Jesus’ teaching: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful”; “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” It is impossible to keep the Lord’s commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make “ours” the same mind that was in Christ Jesus. Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves “forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave” us.

2843 Thus the Lord’s words on forgiveness, the love that loves to the end, become a living reality. The parable of the merciless servant, which crowns the Lord’s teaching on ecclesial communion, ends with these words: "So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."It is there, in fact, “in the depths of the heart,” that everything is bound and loosed. It is not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense; but the heart that offers itself to the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.

2844 Christian prayer extends to the forgiveness of enemies, transfiguring the disciple by configuring him to his Master. Forgiveness is a high-point of Christian prayer; only hearts attuned to God’s compassion can receive the gift of prayer. Forgiveness also bears witness that, in our world, love is stronger than sin. The martyrs of yesterday and today bear this witness to Jesus. Forgiveness is the fundamental condition of the reconciliation of the children of God with their Father and of men with one another.

2845 There is no limit or measure to this essentially divine forgiveness, whether one speaks of “sins” as in Luke (11:4), or " debts" as in Matthew (6:12). We are always debtors: "Owe no one anything, except to love one another."The communion of the Holy Trinity is the source and criterion of truth in every relationship. It is lived out in prayer, above all in the Eucharist.

God does not accept the sacrifice of a sower of disunion, but
commands that he depart from the altar so that he may first
be reconciled with his brother. For God can be appeased only
by prayers that make peace. To God, the better offering is
peace, brotherly concord, and a people made one in the unity
of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

(cont.)

 

[clmowry]

So finally, if there a condition is placed on forgiveness it is placed on each and every christian to reconcile himself to both those whom he has transgressed against and those who have transgressed againts him.

I don’t see anything anywhere that says “don’t forgive someone until they ask for forgiveness.”

Chuck

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’m not angry.

I’m saddened, and perhaps a little frustrated that I cannot better articulate my position.

Not forgiving those who do not repent and ask for forgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting someone else to be healed because you’ve done so.

We are “told” to forgive, “unconditionally”, not just for the sake of the forgiven, but for our own sake. …

Cheer up, Chuck! The concepts of love, mercy and forgiveness are those with which the early church fathers and other saints struggled to comprehend. You and i are walking in good footsteps, i believe. Only good should result from our wrestling with truth! At least, that is my prayer and my hope.

What you say appears on the surface to be true, for Jesus saidFor if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

(Matthew 6:14-15)
It is self-evident that Jesus is saying the Father forgives those who forgive. It also seems evident that the Father does not forgive those who do not forgive. I think we both agree on this, Chuck.

One thing i notice when i look closely at His words is that He does not say that you and i should forgive every sin, including those of which people refuse to repent. Rather, He only says that we should forgive those who do sin. One other thing i notice is that He does not say that we should forgive everyone, regardless of whether they repent or are not aware of their sin.

The question to answer, then, is, “Who should you and i forgive?” My thought is that i should forgive those who God the Father Himself forgives. What is your thought, Chuck?

 

[clmowry]

You should forgive everyone all of their transgressions.

Perhaps this is the problem. Are we blendning “forgiveness” with “reconciliation”?

I believe you should forgive everyone all their transgressions.

You can only reconcile with those who repent of their trasgressions.

Thoughts?

Chuck

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You should forgive everyone all of their transgressions.

Perhaps this is the problem. Are we blendning “forgiveness” with “reconciliation”?

I believe you should forgive everyone all their transgressions.

You can only reconcile with those who repent of their trasgressions.

Thoughts?

Chuck

Yes, i believe reconciliation is forgiveness, or at least an inevitable result of forgiving. I believe you and i should show mercy to everyone unconditionally but forgive and reconcile a relationship with someone only conditionally. Repentance might be one condition a person must meet before i should restore my relationship with her. Isn’t this the reason that God forgives - to restore your relationship and my relationship with Him?

[Jesus] told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.”**(Luke 24:46-48)

The Lord … is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(2 Peter 3:9)

 

[clmowry]

So you say that without reconciliation there can be no forgiveness?

So, for example you cannot forgive someone who has died.

Chuck

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

So you say that without reconciliation there can be no forgiveness?

So, for example you cannot forgive someone who has died.

Chuck

An extremely deep and Socratic question, that! You are a guy after Socrates’ own heart.

Wow, let me see: Should i forgive someone who has committed some atrocity against me or my family and died without repenting of his sin? I would say no, i should not on this side of eternity. On the other side, however, if he is found to be in a state of God’s grace, how could i do otherwise than to forgive him?

You should understand, however, that not forgiving is not the same as being bitter, nor seeking revenge nor holding a grudge. Mercy, i believe (and i’m sure you agree) is an unconditional expression of love. Forgiveness, i believe, is a conditional expression of love.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Chuck:

It might help us get a better grip on this to compare the definitions of mercy and forgiveness from a common dictionary. If we can find out how they are alike and how they are unalike, we might agree on the nature of forgiveness. Perhaps even you will be able to show me where my misconception lies.

mercy
noun1. leniency and compassion shown toward offenders by a person or agency charged with administering justice; “he threw himself on the mercy of the court” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clemency”]clemency] 2. a disposition to be kind and forgiving; “in those days a wife had to depend on the mercifulness of her husband” [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness] [ant: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercilessness”]mercilessness] 3. the feeling that motivates compassion [syn: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mercifulness”]mercifulness] 4. something for which to be thankful; “it was a mercy we got out alive” 5. alleviation of distress; showing great kindness toward the distressed; “distributing food and clothing to the flood victims was an act of mercy”

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

for·give http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (fər-gĭv’, fôr-) Pronunciation Key
v. for·gave (-gāv’), for·giv·en (-gĭv’ən), for·giv·ing, for·gives

v. tr.

1. 
   *]To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
   *]To renounce anger or resentment against.
   *]To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
   v. intr.
   To accord forgiveness.
   
   American Heritage Dictionary
   
   Mercy and forgiveness are alike, i think, in that they both renounce anger or resentment. Mercy is also leniency and a disposition to be kind and forgiving and a feeling and act of compassion, and i think all of these might describe forgiveness as well. This is why i believe all forgiveness is mercy.
   
   What forgiveness does not have in common with mercy, however, is that forgiveness means to pardon and to cancel a debt. This is why i believe that not all mercy is forgiveness.
   
   An example of mercy might be a judge who gives a convicted murderer life in prison instead of the death penalty. This is leniency. An example of forgiveness might be a governor of a state who grants a full pardon to the man about to be executed. A person who receives such a pardon has his debt to society cancelled and walks out of prison a free man.
   
   An example of mercy might be a wife who does not divorce her husband who beats her, but moves out of harms way and lives with relatives instead. An example of forgiveness might be the same battered wife who pardons her husband and moves in with him again and trusts him not to harm her.
   
   What would the violent man have to do to receive such a pardon and restoration of trust and relationship, Chuck?

 

[clmowry]

It appears that we are much more in agreement than I believed.

Mostly it appears we have a difference in terminology.

What you are applying to Mercy, I am applying to Forgiveness.

What your applying to Forgiveness, I’m applying to Reconciliation.

Trust an Pardon? Now we’re on to a different subject (at least for me).

I don’t belive that a restoration of Trust and a Complete Pardon are necessary for Reconciliation

For example, I can forgive a man who stold from me and still not give him the combination to my safe and expect him to pay back the money to the best of his ability.

They are, however, necessary to a successful marriage.

So to answer your question some professional counciling and a prolonged period of humble paternal service.

Chuck

 

[Philthy]

Chuck:

What forgiveness does not have in common with mercy, however, is that forgiveness means to pardon and to cancel a debt. This is why i believe that not all mercy is forgiveness.

Forgiveness involves a wrongdoing between two parties. Mercy does not necessarily involve a wrong doing. We have already covered this topic 10 pages ago.

BTW, back in post 486 you had asked:
soc:

So how does God the Father do forgiveness? Does He forgive those who repent (and perhaps those who are unaware of their sins), or does He forgive all, regardless of whether they repent?

To which I responded, “I’m not sure, why do you ask?” and you have not given an answer.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:Originally Posted by Philthy forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif *Definitely not a hypocrit - “there is no duplicity in Him”. His yes means yes and His no means no. God became one of us to do His will as one of us and become, for us, the ransom for our sin.**Now when He says “Do as I do” we can know that He is not a hypocrit.*Quote:Originally Posted by SocYes, i completely agree, Phil! So how does God the Father do forgiveness? Does He forgive those who repent (and perhaps those who are unaware of their sins), or does He forgive all, regardless of whether they repent?Im not sure. Why do you ask?

Sorry, Phil, i somehow missed your question. The reason i ask is this:

You and i agree that a hypocrite is one refuses to practice what he preaches. That is, instead of saying, “Do as I say and do” a hypocrite hypocritically says, “Do as I say, not as a do.”

You and i also agree that God the Father is no hypocrite. That is, He would never say to you and me, “Do as I say, not as I do.”

So, you and i are left with two options (and only two options that make sense to me): Either it is true that God the Father forgives unconditionally and then expects us to do the same, or it is true that God the Father forgives conditionally and then expects us to do the same.

An example that might help us see how God the Father forgives is that of a wicked, violent man who rapes, tortures and murders innocent victims. Lets say such an evil man is arrested, tried, found guilty, and convicted to death by lethal injection. A priest visits the convicted murderer to give him his final opportunity to confess these mortal sins and perhaps receive God’s forgiveness. The hellbent convict spits in the priest’s face and shouts blasphemous obscenities saying that the priest and his God can take their forgiveness and rot in hell. Lets say this man is executed not long after this incident. Would you say that God would forgive such a sinful, unrepentant monster who refuses to repent and receive God’s forgiveness? If so, and if this is true, then God does forgive unconditionally and so should i.

However, if you, on the other hand, believe that God will not forgive a person who commits such mortal sins and refuses to repent, then neither should i. For God the Father is no hypocrite. He would never say, “Do as I say, not as I do.” He would never ask me to forgive someone He Himself would never forgive.

That’s why i ask, Phil, because i want to know if you believe God the Father forgives unconditionally or conditionally. Then i will know how to forgive, for i know God is no hypocrite.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It appears that we are much more in agreement than I believed.

Mostly it appears we have a difference in terminology.

What you are applying to Mercy, I am applying to Forgiveness.

What your applying to Forgiveness, I’m applying to Reconciliation.

Trust an Pardon? Now we’re on to a different subject (at least for me).

I don’t believe that a restoration of Trust and a Complete Pardon are necessary for Reconciliation

For example, I can forgive a man who stole from me and still not give him the combination to my safe and expect him to pay back the money to the best of his ability.

They are, however, necessary to a successful marriage.

So to answer your question some professional counseling and a prolonged period of humble paternal service.

Chuck

Yes, Chuck, i agree we agree on a great deal, and that what you might call forgiveness, i call mercy, and what you might call reconciliation, i call forgiveness. Perhaps it will be more accurate of me to not claim that reconciliation is forgiveness. Rather, i should say that forgiveness often results (and even should result) in reconciliation, and sometimes even trust. I think this is the result of God’s forgiveness, Chuck, don’t you?

Maybe if we take another look at the drawing that you said is getting closer to the truth it will give us a visual way to compare our ideas: We might say that God the Father loves His Son in the way that is represented by (C). That is, He loves Jesus unconditionally, without having to show mercy (for His Son never sinned against Him). We might say that God the Father loves those who do not yet know Him and have not yet received His forgiveness in a way that is represented by (B). This is also an unconditional love, but one that requires mercy, for mercy (the dictionary tells us) is being compassionate, lenient and always ready to forgive. We might say that God loves you Chuck (and i hope also me) in a way that is represented by (A). For those who have repented of their sins meet the conditions to be forgiven by God the Father. In some ways (A) is an unconditional love, in other ways it is conditional. For the condition for receiving God’s forgiveness is to repent.

What do you think, Chuck?

http://www.geocities.com/chris4dayspring/Love_Mercy_Forgiveness_AB2.JPG