Forgiveness - How do you know?

[Monkey1976]

As a Catholic, there is a question that has been preying on my mind of late.

In the Sacrament of Confession, we (Catholics) know that our sins are forgiven when we hear the words “I absolve you of your sins…” At that moment, assuming we have made a valid confession, we know for certain that we are free from all sin.

To those of you outside the Catholic Church, I’m wondering if there is anything similar to this - is there a moment when you can know, with absolute certainty, that your sins have been forgiven? This is not only directed to other Christians - I’m curious about how divine mercy is dispensed in the context of any other religion.

 

[jazzbaby1]

When I was born again I was taught that I was forgiven as soon as the “AMEN” came out of my mouth when I said the sinner’s prayer. I think that’s how it is in most Protestant denominations. The gist of the teaching IIRC is that God has already forgiven us, we just have to ask Him and it’s true in subsequent confessions of sin to God.

 

[bengal_fan]

As a Catholic, there is a question that has been preying on my mind of late.

In the Sacrament of Confession, we (Catholics) know that our sins are forgiven when we hear the words “I absolve you of your sins…” At that moment, assuming we have made a valid confession, we know for certain that we are free from all sin.

To those of you outside the Catholic Church, I’m wondering if there is anything similar to this - is there a moment when you can know, with absolute certainty, that your sins have been forgiven? This is not only directed to other Christians - I’m curious about how divine mercy is dispensed in the context of any other religion.

you have faith that God works through the priest and has granted him authority to forgive sins. protestants have faith that they are forgiven when they confess directly to God. both “know” their sins are forgiven.

 

[rbarcia]

As a Catholic, there is a question that has been preying on my mind of late.

In the Sacrament of Confession, we (Catholics) know that our sins are forgiven when we hear the words “I absolve you of your sins…” At that moment, assuming we have made a valid confession, we know for certain that we are free from all sin.

To those of you outside the Catholic Church, I’m wondering if there is anything similar to this - is there a moment when you can know, with absolute certainty, that your sins have been forgiven? This is not only directed to other Christians - I’m curious about how divine mercy is dispensed in the context of any other religion.

The Word of God is assures us.

**

1 John 9

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

**

If you believe a priest, who is human, how much more confidence can you have in the Word of God.

Enough Said

 

[Monkey1976]

The Word of God is assures us.

**

1 John 9

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

**

If you believe a priest, who is human, how much more confidence can you have in the Word of God.

Enough Said

Except the Word of God specifies that the priest is acting with the full authority of Christ in this regard:

21
He said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

When I hear the words of absolution, though they physically come from a man’s mouth, they are being spoken by Christ through the priest.

On a related note, how can confession directly to God be reconciled D) with this:

14
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,
15
and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

 

[bengal_fan]

On a related note, how can confession directly to God be reconciled D) with this:

you do know that the catholic church teaches that you can confess your sins directly to God right? it is in the case of not being near a priest of course, but it teaches that we can approach the throne of God ourselves.

 

[Monkey1976]

I realize that confession directly to God is acceptable under certain circumstances in the Catholic Church - my previous post is directed toward those for whom it is considered a norm instead of an exception.

 

[murphdog261]

you do know that the catholic church teaches that you can confess your sins directly to God right? it is in the case of not being near a priest of course, but it teaches that we can approach the throne of God ourselves.

I don’t think that this thread is about the minimum requirements a Christian can do to receive absolution. It has to do with the level of certainty Catholics and other Christians have when they ask for the forgiveness of God.

Given the scriptural references already used, Catholics are certain that they receive absolution of their sins from a priest acting as an instrument of Christ.

As you said, bengal, it is possible to confess your sins directly to God, but clearly there is a difference in certainty between this option and going to confession. That is why the Church prescribes going to confession for mortal sins

 

[ArAnMike]

you do know that the catholic church teaches that you can confess your sins directly to God right? it is in the case of not being near a priest of course, but it teaches that we can approach the throne of God ourselves.

While this is true, it is only an extra-ordinary way to confess sins, such as right after some horrible accident. The person is, however, required to sacramentally confess all mortal sins if they live through that accident.

 

[Marc1152]

you have faith that God works through the priest and has granted him authority to forgive sins. protestants have faith that they are forgiven when they confess directly to God. both “know” their sins are forgiven.

But isnt confessing directly to God too lax a practice?

I am Eastern Orthodox. We are expected to confess regularly. Some Priests require confession weekly before they will allow you to receive the Eucharist. It is a rather intense experience.

I have found this sort of… out loud to another person …frequent confession doesn’t allow me to get away with much. My sins are spoken to another person who is my spiritual mentor who knows me well and therefore has a tremulously different impact then just a silent prayer when I am alone. I have held accountable, especially for some sins that I a very weak before and keep repeating.

Plus, there is a second element that has not been addressed, penance. I don’t know about Roman Catholics but our Priests will sometimes make a sort of prescription for us that will bring us back from our errors. We think of the Church as a spiritual hospital of sorts. The Priest like a doctor and his guidance like healing medicine.

In the West, both Roman and Protestant versions, the Church is more like a court of law. You do this and get that, When is the contract sealed? With the lawyer or the judge?.. At what moment is the deal completed? etc.

Confession makes far more sense to me in the context of how it is used in Eastern Christianity,as part of the process of “Theosis”, becoming more like Christ. It is transformative.

 

[rbarcia]

Except the Word of God specifies that the priest is acting with the full authority of Christ in this regard:

Was Jesus speaking to Roman Catholic Priests then?

When I hear the words of absolution, though they physically come from a man’s mouth, they are being spoken by Christ through the priest.

Really? How does that happen?

On a related note, how can confession directly to God be reconciled D) with this:

The verse does not say anything about not confessing sins to God? and it does not say confess sins to a priest?

But to one another as one body (if I wronged you by hurting you, I should confess that to you, the person I harmed).

 

[Marc1152]

Was Jesus speaking to Roman Catholic Priests then?

Really? How does that happen?

The verse does not say anything about not confessing sins to God? and it does not say confess sins to a priest?

But to one another as one body (if I wronged you by hurting you, I should confess that to you, the person I harmed).

Then why was confession a part of the Christian practice from such an early time? Why is your personal interpretation more profound than the Church Fathers who were taught directly by the Apostles?

And it doesnt matter for you to know “How it works”… This is religion, not mechanics

 

[murphdog261]

Was Jesus speaking to Roman Catholic Priests then?

When Jesus gave his apostles the power to bind and loose sins, there wasn’t really a formalized church, only the beginnings of Christ’s Church. Through apostolic succession, however, bishops and priests belonging to the Church were able to bind and loose sins as well. This apostolic succession continues today within the Catholic Church under all the bishops and priests.

How does that happen?

As the scriptural references have already stated, the priest at confession is an instrument of Christ, that Christ works through.

The verse does not say anything about not confessing sins to God? and it does not say confess sins to a priest?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with confessing sins to God. However, as this thread has already discussed, the point being made is the certainty of one’s absolution after asking for forgiveness. It is much more certain that absolution is given when an instrument of Christ, ordained by His Church, verbally grants it, than when praying alone.

But to one another as one body (if I wronged you by hurting you, I should confess that to you, the person I harmed).

Also a great practice, since we can’t be forgiven unless we forgive others anyway . However, the be certain of absolution, confession is needed. Plus, its a great routine to get into. It can really alter the practices of your life!

In Christ,

Murph

 

[bengal_fan]

Given the scriptural references already used, **Catholics are certain that they receive absolution of their sins from a priest **acting as an instrument of Christ.

As you said, bengal, it is possible to confess your sins directly to God, but clearly there is a difference in certainty between this option and going to confession. That is why the Church prescribes going to confession for mortal sins

catholics are “certain” because they have faith that Christ instituted the priesthood and gave the priests (and priests alone) the authority to forgive sins.

protestants are “certain” because they understand the Bible to say that if they confess their sins, God will forgive them. they believe (as the catholic church does also but in drastically different ways) in the priesthood of all believers. i completely agree that protestants don’t do enough public (or simply with one another) confession. i also think that many catholics think that it’s the priest’s words that forgive them when it really is God who does the forgiving (the priest is simply the tool in which catholics believe He does the forgiving).

 

[iamscifimike]

In the West, both Roman and Protestant versions, the Church is more like a court of law. You do this and get that, When is the contract sealed? With the lawyer or the judge?.. At what moment is the deal completed? etc.

I don’t think this is a fair or accurate statement.

We do hold ourselves accountable to God’s Law but, what you say here:

Confession makes far more sense to me in the context of how it is used in Eastern Christianity,as part of the process of “Theosis”, becoming more like Christ. It is transformative.

sounds more how I, as a Roman Catholic, view confession and I assume that the eastern rites of our church have retained their Eastern Orthodox views.

You, yourself said this

I don’t know about Roman Catholics but

I had always thought that there is very little difference in orthodox churches of which the RCC is one.

Sorry, I think I got off topic.

 

[murphdog261]

catholics are “certain” because they have faith that Christ instituted the priesthood and gave the priests (and priests alone) the authority to forgive sins.

protestants are “certain” because they understand the Bible to say that if they confess their sins, God will forgive them.

The funny thing is that Catholics use the same Bible as protestants in discovering the truth of the ordained priesthood, except the Catholic Church has the Magisterium and Tradition to validate their statements.

i also think that many catholics think that it’s the priest’s words that forgive them when it really is God who does the forgiving (the priest is simply the tool in which catholics believe He does the forgiving).

Well when I posted “the priest is the instrument of Christ”, that’s what I was going for. (that the priest is the tool)

As for what most Catholics believe, I cannot answer that question because I have not asked enough Catholics to see if they have any misconceptions of actual Catholic teaching. I do know, however, that there is misconception of the Catholic Church, by other faiths, protestants, orthodox, and some catholics.

Since your statement says “many catholics think its the priest that forgives” and not “actual Catholic teaching”, I see no real problem. I just don’t know enough Catholics to make that claim

 

[bengal_fan]

The funny thing is that Catholics use the same Bible as protestants in discovering the truth of the ordained priesthood, except the Catholic Church has the Magisterium and Tradition to validate their statements.

i know this but it’s not the topic of this thread. it was asked “how do you know” that’s what i answered. everyoned thinks they are certain but it really comes down to faith. of course faith is being assured of things hoped for and certain of what we do not see.

 

[Marc1152]

I don’t think this is a fair or accurate statement.

We do hold ourselves accountable to God’s Law but, what you say here:.

LIke I said, the paradigm is a court of law. You are accuntable to “God’s LAW”… Through confession you are being forgiven for rule breaking.

That is certainly a vaild aspect of confession but it is not the central understanding of what is going on in the East. That is why the Protestant fellow is asking mechanical questions, who what when and why.

I had always thought that there is very little difference in orthodox churches of which the RCC is one.

Sorry, I think I got off topic.

The Latin Church is not part of the Eastern Orthodox Church. We see your approch to be more similar to Protestantism than to us in terms of World View . I think it may be easier for a Protestant to look at confession in the Eastern Church in order to see how it functions, since it is different than what he may expect.