Forgiveness in Judaism, Islam and other non-Christian religions

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famdigy said:
i don’t deny anti-semetism exists and it is wrong. However lets not confuse anti-semetism with anti-zionism.
  • All jews have the right of return but the 2 million Palestinian refugees don’t have that right… why?
  • The creation of the state of Israel was in response to the holocaust, so why are the Palestinians made to pay for the crimes of the Europeans in the holocaust.?
  • why don’t the Germans ask jews for forgiveness and give them a small part of Germany in compensation… After all the holocaust happened in Europe.
  • Why can’t Palestinians also vote for a representative in the Israeli government?
I’m not against Jews, I’m against a government that represents only one race or religion, It should be a country with equal rights and opportunities for all of its citizens and it shouldn’t matter if you are Muslim, Christian, or Jewish.

Ironically the Jewish motto is to “never forget, never forgive”
time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,947354,00.html
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You ask some valid questions, and some are ones I have asked myself.

Originally I became an anti-zionist for Jewish theological reasons…but the more I studied the issue, the more I saw its also a question of humanitarianism for Palestinian Arabs, who you rightfully say, should not have had to “pay” for the Nazi genocide.
 
famdigy said:
I’m not against Jews, I’m against a government that represents only one race or religion, It should be a country with equal rights and opportunities for all of its citizens and it shouldn’t matter if you are Muslim, Christian, or Jewish.
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There are many arab & muslim citizens in Israel. And doesnt it have equal rights for all of them?

The refugees in the North just arent citizens of israel. What they are are pawns of the muslim world against Israel.
 
HashemEchad said:
But regardless, the Land was not taken from MUSLIMS really, but from ARABS. Remember that not all Muslims are Arabs, and not all Arabs are Muslims (many are Christians.)
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A minor point, but the land was taken from the Arabs by the Ottomans (i.e. White, European Muslims from Turkey and the Balkans), and after them, by the British and the French.

Israel came into existence due to a national liberation movement which reflected a Jewish identity, in the same period in history when other nations (Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, etc.) also achieved their liberation, and subsequently reflected Muslim and Christian (in the case of Lebanon and Cyprus) identities. Jews had always made up a portion of Palestinians, and nobody should consider it odd that Jews might want a state of their own.

Part of the problem with criticizing political Zionism is that the valid and salient arguments are constantly co-opted by anti-Semites who want to criticize Jews as a whole, so on that score I agree with you.
 
LaMar said:
A minor point, but the land was taken from the Arabs by the Ottomans (i.e. White, European Muslims from Turkey and the Balkans), and after them, by the British and the French.
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Not in the same way. When Palestine was part of the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, or even part of a UN Mandate after WWI, the land was not literally taken away. The governments changed throughout history, but the land really belonged to the people who inhabited it. When the land was taken–the native population was expelled and a new, immigrant population began to dominate.
Israel came into existence due to a national liberation movement which reflected a Jewish identity, in the same period in history when other nations (Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, etc.) also achieved their liberation, and subsequently reflected Muslim and Christian (in the case of Lebanon and Cyprus) identities. Jews had always made up a portion of Palestinians, and nobody should consider it odd that Jews might want a state of their own.
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With the fall and dismantling of the Ottoman Empire, these lands had to develop what you call “liberation.” But Israel was completely different, because of the extremely high immigration of Jewish people into the region of Palestine. Jews did not make up the majority of Palestinians. There were Jews there, and Christians, but the reason Israel came into existence was the tremendous immigration and the military strength. They established a Jewish state, which became recognized internationally, on land which they claimed they had been given from Britain, but in the process the natives who actually lived there were being kicked out while the immigrants moved in and took over.

And I don’t mean to say that people (Jews) immigrated there to cause trouble with Palestinians. Many were fleeing persecution in Europe and other places while nations like the USA were too anti-Semitic to allow such an influx of Jews.
 
AgnosTheist said:
you dont seem particularly sore about it. if so, i hope more muslims are like you. 🙂
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Sore about what? I am sore about the oppression of Palestinians and the attacks on Israelis. I am sore about existing anti-Semitism among Muslims. And I am sore about American policies which prolong the suffering in the region.

I would like to see a peace, and a peace that is just. And I think forgiveness is part of that. On both sides.

When the issue was originally brought up, the reason I pressed it is that I was getting the impression (which I attempted to point out) that someone was suggesting that Muslims need to forgive the Jews and that the Jews didn’t do anything wrong. Both cases can’t be true. If nothing had been done unjustly, then there would be no need for forgiveness. But in fact there is injustice on both sides right now.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Not in the same way. When Palestine was part of the Roman Empire, the Ottoman Empire, or even part of a UN Mandate after WWI, the land was not literally taken away. The governments changed throughout history, but the land really belonged to the people who inhabited it. When the land was taken–the native population was expelled and a new, immigrant population began to dominate.

With the fall and dismantling of the Ottoman Empire, these lands had to develop what you call “liberation.” But Israel was completely different, because of the extremely high immigration of Jewish people into the region of Palestine. Jews did not make up the majority of Palestinians. There were Jews there, and Christians, but the reason Israel came into existence was the tremendous immigration and the military strength. They established a Jewish state, which became recognized internationally, on land which they claimed they had been given from Britain, but in the process the natives who actually lived there were being kicked out while the immigrants moved in and took over.

And I don’t mean to say that people (Jews) immigrated there to cause trouble with Palestinians. Many were fleeing persecution in Europe and other places while nations like the USA were too anti-Semitic to allow such an influx of Jews.
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I don’t think we disagree on as much as many might imagine. Mass immigration replaced the authentic Palestinian Jewish culture with a European Jewish culture, which accounts for a lot of the strife in the area. Incidentally, some of the harshest criticism of Israel comes from the Sephardim and other non-European Jews (East Africans in particular) who feel constantly discriminated against.

Have you ever read this?
amazon.com/Orientalism-Edward-W-Said/dp/039474067X

Give it a shot if you haven’t. You’d like it.
 
LaMar said:
I don’t think we disagree on as much as many might imagine. Mass immigration replaced the authentic Palestinian Jewish culture with a European Jewish culture, which accounts for a lot of the strife in the area. Incidentally, some of the harshest criticism of Israel comes from the Sephardim and other non-European Jews (East Africans in particular) who feel constantly discriminated against.

Have you ever read this?
amazon.com/Orientalism-Edward-W-Said/dp/039474067X

Give it a shot if you haven’t. You’d like it.
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I read part of it… can’t remember which part and can’t remember why. 😊
 
What’s that new signature of yours, Sister Amy? “Kung Fu Islam”! What’s this?:confused:
 
Lapell said:
What’s that new signature of yours, Sister Amy? “Kung Fu Islam”! What’s this?:confused:
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It’s a link to my blog… I was trying to increase readership… lol… sneaky amy. Click on it and read the post… it might make sense…
 
Lapell said:
Nothing on people forgiving other people for their wrongs against them?
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srry i didnt read the whole article i naturally assumed guilt went together with forgiveness. Dont you have to feel guilty in order to incline one’s heart towards forgivness.

here are two better examples
Gita
Chapter 16: Divine and Demonic Qualities
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The Supreme Lord said: Fearlessness, purity of heart, perseverance in the yoga of knowledge, charity, sense restraint, sacrifice, study of the scriptures, austerity, honesty; (16.01)
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Nonviolence, truthfulness, absence of anger, renunciation, equanimity, abstaining from malicious talk, compassion for all creatures, freedom from greed, gentleness, modesty, absence of fickleness; (16.02)
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Splendor, forgiveness, fortitude, cleanliness, absence of malice, and absence of pride; these are the qualities of those endowed with divine virtues, O Arjuna. (16.03)
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There is one only defect in forgiving persons, and not another; that defect is that people take a forgiving person to be weak. That defect however, should not be taken into consideration, for forgiveness is a great power.
Forgiveness is a virtue of the weak, and an ornament of the strong. Forgiveness subdues (all) in this world; what is there that forgiveness cannot achieve?
What can a wicked person do unto him who carries the sabre of forgiveness in his hand? Fire falling on a grassless ground is extinguished of itself. And unforgiving individual defiles himself with many enormities. Righteousness is the one highest good; and forgiveness is the one supreme peace; knowledge is one supreme contentment; and benevolence, one sole happiness
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Sufis

“When the Sufis pronounces the formula astaghfirullah, Iask forgiveness of God, he or she reads into the petition an added request; to be forgiven for his or her seperate existence…the Sufis see it as an extention of Rabia’s teaching that “Your existence is a sin with which no other can be compared.” Because ex-istence is a standing out from something, which in this case is God, existence involves seperation.” S. Huston World Religons.
 
Sagefrakrobatik said:
srry i didnt read the whole article i naturally assumed guilt went together with forgiveness. Dont you have to feel guilty in order to incline one’s heart towards forgivness.
My question was not about God forgiving us and about the assumed guilt from the ones who ask forgiveness from God, even though it indeed is a truly important thing.
What I meant was, if one was guilty toward somebody else, and if he/she repents and asks that person for forgiveness, is there in your religion something asking that somebody else not to refuse to forgive him/her?
(I hope my question is a bit clearer this time. But if not, don’t hesitate to ask again…)
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OOPS! I just saw that you have answered the question. Sorry!
Please… forgive me!!
 
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