Forgiveness is overrated

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Roguish

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Yep. There. I said it. Forgiveness is overrated.

Of course, it isn’t overrated if you understand correctly what it is, but most Christians don’t. Hence the endless talk of it. The talk is endless because people try to “do” forgiveness as best as they can – and fail, because they have an incorrect understanding of what it is. They fail to achieve or live up to their mistaken understanding of forgiveness, and get frustrated, and get into futile prayer-cycles of “God allow me to forgive so and so”, and are then puzzled why it still doesn’t work, i.e. why they still don’t feel the forgiveness (as they imagine it) in their hearts. And then get even more frustrated because they feel that now they are as much in the wrong for not being “forgiving” as the perpetrator was wrong for committing the offense.

So what is forgiveness then? It is simply this: to not desire revenge. Not by you anyway. In other words, you are forgiving when you are at peace knowing that it is up to God to mete out retribution, if, when, and to the extent that He wills it. In OT terms, vengeance is God’s (alone), and you are forgiving when you are at peace with this, and do not need vengeance to be yours. In yet other terms: desire justice, but don’t desire to be the one to either mete out the justice or to witness it.

And what is forgiveness not? First, attempting to get rid of the feeling of having been mistreated or offended, is not forgiveness. This feeling may or may not go away, depending on many factors, but it has no bearing on whether you have forgiven the other or not. And it therefore also has no bearing on whether you are a “good person”, and no bearing on your lot in the Afterlife.

Second, attempting to restore or maintain good relations with the perpetrator, is also not forgiveness. In many cases, such attempts are self-imposed torture, and it is not something that God asks you to do. No, “love thy enemy” is not a commandment to try to turn your enemies into your friends. It is to love him simply as he/she is: your enemy. Christ tells us to pray for our enemies – he does not ask us to socialize with them. (Of course, if relations naturally recover without any forced “attempts” at it, then that’s wonderful.)

Third, attempting to reinterpret the offense in such a way as to make the offender seem less guilty or responsible, is also not forgiveness. “He can’t help himself.” “He meant well.” “He didn’t mean to hurt me.” “He’s only human.” “He had his reasons.” Etc. etc. None of this works, and God does not ask us to get into such mental efforts to think our way into a different take on the matter, e.g. to “see it from his/her point of view”.

(Oops, 3,200 character limit – continued in next post.)
 
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Fourth, attempting to eradicate any hurt or indignation from your heart for the reason that “you are prolonging your suffering by holding on to your hurt” (or something along those lines), is also not forgiveness. Nobody is holding on to their own hurt. If it’s there, it’s there, and when it’s gone it’s gone. An emotional wound is, in this respect, no different from a physical wound: it needs time to heal, and nature will take care of that. Wounds, be they physical or emotional, cannot be “held on to”, and therefore cannot be “let go of”. They can only heal. No attempts at “forgiveness” are required or helpful.

That about covers it. So, all forgiveness-mongers can tone it down a notch now, and all those who have been feeling bad about being unable to “forgive” can breathe a sigh of relief. If you do not desire revenge, you have already met the Christian standard of forgiveness.

Really.
 
Yeah, I have to agree. I’ve been treated unjustly by a certain family member. I’ve had the whole “you should be more forgiving” lecture from various people.

I think it’s meaningless to forgive unless forgiveness is sought. I don’t wish any evil on this person. But their actions in the past have hurt me and I still am angry about them from time to time. It doesn’t play a large part in my life as I’ve let go of it to a certain extent.

But I certainly agree that often people who advocate “forgiveness” don’t really understand what that really means, and I would evn say that some people’s idea of forgiveness is actually unjust.
 
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Wait. Forgiveness is not wanting the person to receive the punishment due to them. Not even from God. But all the rest I agree. we don’t have to tolerate some toxic person who leaves a wake of suffering behind them.
 
Benadam said:
Forgiveness is not wanting the person to receive the punishment due to them. Not even from God.
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This is a subtle point you make, thanks for contributing it. But I’m afraid it’s an error. You see, you’re implicitly saying we should cherish a preference with regard to what judgment God passes on others. This in turn implies that we believe one judgment (i.e. no punishment) to be better than the alternative (i.e. punishment). But we cannot know this. In truth, God’s judgment is best by definition. If God punishes someone, either in this world, or in the next, or in purgatory, or wherever (and whenever, and however), then surely that is what’s best. And if God chooses not to punish someone, that surely that is what’s best. Moreover, God’s punishment (if He imposes it) cleanses and restores, so to wish for God to never mete it out to anyone cannot be the correct view to take, for then we would fail to acknowledge the healing work that is accomplished when we suffer God’s punishment.
 
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Roguish said:
You see, you’re implicitly saying we should cherish a preference with regard to what judgment God passes on others.
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Roguish, if there is suffering from God meant to heal judgement has not happened. That would be chastisement. Remember the meditation four last things death judgement heaven hell. No room for healing after death. Relative to God judgement is eternal.
 
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AdamP88 said:
I think it’s meaningless to forgive unless forgiveness is sought.
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I used to believe this strongly. But I no longer do.
We don’t have perfect knowledge of the other person’s thinking.
 
ratio1 said:
We don’t have perfect knowledge of the other person’s thinking.
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No. But that’s not really a good point.
I mean, even God requires us to seek forgiveness for our sinful actions in confession.

I don’t have to have perfect knowledge of someone’s thoughts to know that they hurt me.
 
Benadam said:
Remember the meditation four last things death judgement heaven hell. No room for healing after death.
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You forget Purgatory. Which purifies, i.e. cleanses, i.e. heals, and comes after death. (And before Heaven, of course.) In fact this is why Purgatory is so essential to Catholic theology. Without it, the whole model falls apart, because indeed without it it would be impossible for anything to be done about one’s fate after departure from this life. But we have Purgatory – thank God – so even if we depart this life imperfectly, we are not lost.

And how does this bear on forgiveness and the point you raised: if God judges that someone should go to Purgatory (instead of straight to heaven), surely that is what is right for that individual. For me or anyone to wish that God judged differently from what he did or does judge (e.g. with respect to sending someone to Purgatory), makes no sense, because it would mean I wish God didn’t purify someone further (in Purgatory or in this life).
 
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ratio1 said:
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AdamP88:
I think it’s meaningless to forgive unless forgiveness is sought.
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I used to believe this strongly. But I no longer do.
We don’t have perfect knowledge of the other person’s thinking.
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Yeah, I agree with this. Forgiveness is good (in fact best) even when it is not sought. But I’m speaking of forgiveness as I have explained it, i.e. the absence of a wish for revenge. If by forgiveness we mean “restoring relations”, then indeed that’s meaningless unless the other party also really wants that. But as I’ve argued we shouldn’t use the term “forgiveness” for that.
 
So someone who has a psychatric problem and doesn’t know he hurt you and therefore doesn’t seek forgiveness: you cannot forgive this person? (Assuming you are ignorant that he has a psychiatric problem)
 
Roguish - your in trouble.
Glad your on this site - though -
Forgiveness is a HUGE element - to belief and faith.
I’m thunderstruck - that you consider it - the way you do.
I feel sorry for you.
Christ - on the Holy cross - about to die -
" Forgive them Father, they know not what they do ( or say ) "
Even the first martyr Steven…said the same thing…and many martyrs afterwards too.
Peter - our first Pope - personally asked Jesus - on some occasion -
how many times was he to forgive someone -
Forgiveness - promotes - other people to being saved.
 
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Hi Seagull, I’m not sure if you read all of my opening post, but contrary to what the title suggests, my overall argument is not that forgiveness isn’t important. My argument is that people misunderstand what it is. Forgiveness properly understood is important. I labeled it “overrated” in the title to draw attention to the fact that many Christians try hard to be forgiving based on an incorrect understanding of it – and fail.
 
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Yeah - your post was way too long - and brainy -
but I decided to offer my two cents anyways -
 
Forgiveness entails reconciliation and make peace otherwise it is a fake forgiveness.

It is when you make a decision that the hurt/offence done unto you will not bother you anymore. It is not easy and even not achievable. That is why Jesus said to forgive seventy times seven - which is infinitely. You try to forgive for the rest of your life until it stops hurting you.

And as human we may not be able to forgive as how God wants us to forgive but with God’s help, nothing is impossible.

Unforgiveness is a bondage, a prison. We need to break out from it.
 
St. John Paul II demonstrated what forgiveness should be. He met his detractor, reconciled and made his peace with him. He made an effort to do that, arranging to meet his would be assassinator to forgive him.

It is not just words and feeling but demonstrated with action. That the impact of harm that unforgiveness can do to us that it takes our whole human and divine effort to undo it in forgiveness.
 
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I heard this story - recently -
Some guy raped then murdered this young woman.
He got arrested and sent to jail - for life.
The parents…after a few years - went and visited him -
saying they forgave him -
all began to cry.
 
AdamP88 said:
I don’t have to have perfect knowledge of someone’s thoughts to know that they hurt me.
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@AdamP88 This is also a very good point. We don’t have that perfect knowledge, we don’t need it, and (therefore) we shouldn’t attempt to obtain or imagine it. Whoever goes down the path of attempting to be “understanding” of a perpetrator, in an attempt to be “forgiving”, is entering into the realm of psychology, and has left the realm of religion.
 
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