Forgiveness Mediated By A Presbyter?

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“Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.” – James 5:14-15

It clearly says the prayer of faith that is prayed over by the presbyter will result in sins being forgiven.

How do Protestants explain this text?
As a Catholic I can see it obviously descripes a priestly function. It’s a Sacramental function. The non-Sacramental Protestants that do this are preforming a Sacramental function, whether they recognize it or not.
 
As a Catholic I can see it obviously descripes a priestly function. It’s a Sacramental function. The non-Sacramental Protestants that do this are preforming a Sacramental function, whether they recognize it or not.
I would say we are carrying out a Jesus function, which Jesus said we would do before he ascended into heaven. The same power that is in Christ is in us, all Christians. If that means that all Christians can carry out “sacramental” functions then I would agree.
 
I would say we are carrying out a Jesus function, which Jesus said we would do before he ascended into heaven. The same power that is in Christ is in us, all Christians. If that means that all Christians can carry out “sacramental” functions then I would agree.
It is latent in every christian, but there is still ordination as found in the bible, and the history of the Early Church

The ordination of bishops, presbyters, and deacons was understood to be something sacramental in nature, directly involving the Holy Spirit, and performed via the “laying on of hands.” For example, we’ve already seen in 1 Tim 5:22, where, speaking about the ordination of presbyters, St. Paul tells Timothy, “Do not lay hands too readily upon anyone.” Likewise, in 2 Tim 1:6, Paul refers to Timothy’s own ordination, saying: “For this reason I remind you to stir up the flame of the Gift of God (i.e. the Holy Spirit) that you have through the imposition of my hands.” Here, it is quite clear to see that ordination to the episcopate, the presbyterate (priesthood), or the diaconate was not merely an act of human nomination, but a sacramental act of the Holy Spirit Himself through the ministry of His Church and of its minister (Paul)…
 
It is latent in every christian, but there is still ordination as found in the bible, and the history of the Early Church

The ordination of bishops, presbyters, and deacons was understood to be something sacramental in nature, directly involving the Holy Spirit, and performed via the “laying on of hands.” For example, we’ve already seen in 1 Tim 5:22, where, speaking about the ordination of presbyters, St. Paul tells Timothy, “Do not lay hands too readily upon anyone.” Likewise, in 2 Tim 1:6, Paul refers to Timothy’s own ordination, saying: “For this reason I remind you to stir up the flame of the Gift of God (i.e. the Holy Spirit) that you have through the imposition of my hands.” Here, it is quite clear to see that ordination to the episcopate, the presbyterate (priesthood), or the diaconate was not merely an act of human nomination, but a sacramental act of the Holy Spirit Himself through the ministry of His Church and of its minister (Paul)…
I can’t speak of all Protestants, but I certainly believe in the laying on of hands. Pentecostal ministers lay hands on those being ordained. But I think the important difference is apostolic succession. We don’t believe in it. The calling of someone to minister is very much an act of the Holy Spirit. However, whether the church recognizes that act through ordaining and setting them apart for service does not negate the original call of God on their life.
 
I can’t speak of all Protestants, but I certainly believe in the laying on of hands. Pentecostal ministers lay hands on those being ordained. But I think the important difference is apostolic succession. We don’t believe in it. The calling of someone to minister is very much an act of the Holy Spirit. However, whether the church recognizes that act through ordaining and setting them apart for service does not negate the original call of God on their life.
“Apostolic succession” DOES NOT mean that the Pope, or any other bishop, succeeds to the full office of an Apostle. That is not the Catholic claim at all. Rather, “Apostolic succession” maintains that a Pope, or a particular bishop, succeeds FROM an Apostle or Apostles. It, in no way, implies that this Pope or this bishop is now an Apostle himself.

Furthermore, it in no way implies that this Pope or this bishop is Divinely-inspired (as the Apostles were), or infallible (in the sense that the Apostles were), or that they are the originators of new, Christ-given revelation (as the Apostles were). Rather, the Pope and his brother bishops are merely the authoritative, Spirit-protected guardians of revelation (i.e. the Apostolic Deposit of Faith) that has already been delivered to us, in full, by the Apostles. Catholics clearly believe, only God can commission someone to be an Apostle.

While a Pope, or another bishop, may not succeed to the full office of an Apostle (e.g. the Apostle Peter), they do succeed to a dimension of the Apostolic office: and that is the episcopal dimension of the Apostolic office. In other words, all Apostles, as part of their Apostolic calling, were also bishops (e.g. “overseers” – pastors of the flock). Peter calls himself a “presbyter” among other (non-Apostle) presbyters in 1 Peter 5:1, as does the Apostle John in 2 John 1 and 3 John 1. Here, it is important to note that, at the time the New Testament was written, the terms “bishop” (“overseer”) and “presbyter” (“senior” / “elder” – which would eventually evolve into our English word “priest”) were still being used interchangeably (and this is more than understandable, given that all Catholic bishops are also priests).

And so, when the Bishop of Rome says that he is the successor of the Apostle Peter, or when the Bishop of Ephesus says that he is the successor of the Apostle John, they are referring to the episcopal offices held by Peter (1 Peter 5:1) and by John (2 John 1), and not to the full measure of their Apostolic ministries.

Only God can appoint an Apostle. Such was clearly the case with the Apostle Paul, who did not succeed from any of the Twelve (the Twelve were made Apostles to the Jewish people, by the way), but was called directly by Christ Himself to be an Apostle to the Gentiles. So, it is certainly true that no human authority made St. Paul an Apostle. However, if you read Acts 13:1-3, you will clearly see that a human authority (i.e., the bishops of the church of Antioch) DID appoint both Paul and Barnabas, by the laying on of hands, to their episcopal offices (thereby giving them the authority to found other churches and to ordain other presbyters within them: Acts 14:23). Before this time, neither Paul nor Barnabas ordained anyone, nor did they claim the authority to found any churches (but merely, in Paul’s case, to preach the Good News, which is the function of an Apostle). Yet, only a bishop can ordain or establish churches; and a bishop is also subject to Church hierarchy and submits to it when necessary (e.g. Acts 15:2).
 
“Apostolic succession” DOES NOT mean that the Pope, or any other bishop, succeeds to the full office of an Apostle. That is not the Catholic claim at all. Rather, “Apostolic succession” maintains that a Pope, or a particular bishop, succeeds FROM an Apostle or Apostles. It, in no way, implies that this Pope or this bishop is now an Apostle himself.
I know what Apostolic Succession means. I was simply referring to the fact that we (speaking for Pentecostals) do not believe that the laying on of hands must be from someone in an unbroken chain from the apostles to have valid effect. Such as the laying on of hands to impart holy orders.
 
I know what Apostolic Succession means. I was simply referring to the fact that we (speaking for Pentecostals) do not believe that the laying on of hands must be from someone in an unbroken chain from the apostles to have valid effect. Such as the laying on of hands to impart holy orders.
Yes, but you don’t give any reason Why you believe this?

I have provided support for the Catholic position.
 
Yes, but you don’t give any reason Why you believe this?

I have provided support for the Catholic position.
You’ve quoted some scriptures where the apostles laid hands on people and marvelous things happened. That still happens today, you don’t have to be a bishop or priest for it to happen either. I’ve yet to see proof of Apostolic Succession from scripture.
 
You’ve quoted some scriptures where the apostles laid hands on people and marvelous things happened. That still happens today, you don’t have to be a bishop or priest for it to happen either. I’ve yet to see proof of Apostolic Succession from scripture.
You write: This is not valid.

Where are the arguments for this statement?

Where do you answer my question?
 
Read Numbers Chapter 16.
In that chapter we hear how a number of Levites who were not “Sons of Aaron” claimed the right to the priesthood.
Moses asked the Lord to show the truth, and the ground opened up and swallowed those men whole, with their families.

Jesus tells us to respect and listen to those who “Sit in the seat of Moses”

later Jesus tells Peter (Kephas) that he is the rock (Kephas) on which He will build his church. and grants him the “keys to the kingdom”
(again see old testament references to this… the Holder of the Keys is the Steward. a Heriditary position… second in command to the king).

Jesus replaced the Old (Mosaic) Covenant, with the New (Messianic) covenant.
the old blood sacrifices are replaced with Jesus Perfect sacrifice on the Cross.
The old priest in the Order of Aaron are replaced with the new preisthood in the Order of Melkisadeck (High Priest of God Most High, Prophet and King, who offered a sacrifice of Bread & Wine)
The Blood to atone for our sins is spilled by Jesus himself, our High Priest.

We now have a 3-fold ordained priesthood.
Bishop (Overseer / Episcopi) Priest (Presbyter) and Deacon.
The bishop has the fullness of the priesthood, and can confer Holy Orders, and is the overseer of his flock.
The Priest (Presbyter) handles the daily sacraments for the faithful.Confecting the Eucharist, and
The Deacon Is the Messenger (preacher & minister of the Gospel) and servant( minister of Charity). he can Baptise, he can witness Marriages and confer many blessings of the church. he can give Viaticum to the dying, and lead a funeral (where it is not a funeral mass)

The Priest and Bishop are also deacons.
The Bishop is also a Priest.

When Teaching the ordained orders Sit in the chair of Peter which is the successor to the Chair of Moses. Most properly it is the Magisterium (our bishops) who hold the fullness of that chair. (our Priests and Deacons to a very much lesser degree).

The universal priesthood of Baptism (you are a Royal Priesthood, a Holy nation to His Grace), does not call us here on earth to that Sacramental Priesthood which is restricted to the Ordained.

Only an overseer (Bishop) can ordain a man to the priesthood.
They were originally only ordained to that position by the Apostles.
Apostolic succession is essential. anyone claiming Holy Orders without that succession is just play-acting.
 
“Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.” – James 5:14-15

It clearly says the prayer of faith that is prayed over by the presbyter will result in sins being forgiven.

How do Protestants explain this text?
I didn’t see a Lutheran response here, so…
Article XI: Of Confession.
1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12.
the Augsburg Confession

Jon
 
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