Forgiveness of sins

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I think of myself as a follower of jesus.

One of the aspects of Catholicism that has baffled me, is a priest forgiving sins.

This seems to contravene the very nature of G_D.

The truth is any sin, is first and foremost a sin against G_D, how can a priest forgive my sins?
 
I think of myself as a follower of jesus.

One of the aspects of Catholicism that has baffled me, is a priest forgiving sins.

This seems to contravene the very nature of G_D.

The truth is any sin, is first and foremost a sin against G_D, how can a priest forgive my sins?
Without citing the exact versus, I can give you an overview.

Jesus forgave sins.

Jesus told his Apostles that they would have the same authority on earth that he had: the ability to forgive sins.

Jesus put into place a Church with the ability to pass on the authority and hold it until he returns to call us all home.

Priests gain the authority from the Church.

Priests can forgive sins.

Now, not to get too theological, it is actually God that forgives the sin THROUGH the actions of the priest. The priest is speaking in persona Christi (in the person of Christ), so it is still God.
 
Jesus Christ is my only Priest.

Hebrews 7:25-28
Romans 8:38
 
Let me ask you a question:

Do Christians believe that the preaching of the Gospel carries with it, for those who believe and trust in the message, the forgiveness of their sins by God for the sake of Christ?

To put it another way:

Do they believe that the suffering and death of Jesus has made atonement for their sins and that the church, when she proclaims this truth and encourages trust in Christ, carries the full benefits of this atonement to those believers?

There is nothing different in this than when a Protestant Pastor or a Catholic priest announce the mercy of God to sinners whether it be in the context of the Sunday service or the confessional.
 
Most Protestant faiths, mine included, believe it is scriptural (James 5:16) and beneficial to confess sins to other believers. However, a human being does not offer forgiveness of sins for a person on behalf of The Father. Only God forgives sins through the intercession of Jesus Christ, The True High Priest. We confess our sins to one another because we truly want to “put the sin away” and move on. We are then accountable to each other if we fall back into that pattern of sin and the people that we have “confessed” this sin can, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, come to us and graciously bring it to our attention and offer encouragement to help us rehabilitate of that sin. Confession of sins to one another lifts the weight of that sin off because we truly acknowlege it, make it public, and KNOW we truly want to be forgiven and be cleansed of that sin.

I have no problem with confession of sins to a Catholic Priest but I do not think that it is scriptural to believe the Priest actually offers forgiveness of that sin for God. I do think if the Priest is in good standing with God and is walking obediently in his personal life with God that his telling someone “God has forgiven your sins” on behalf of God is a good thing.
 
I think you have a point here, although I would question even jesus having the power to forgive sins.

As in jesus forgave sins by the power of G_D, not by his own power.

Another point is that your analogy is flawed, if jesus was the eternal sacrifice, he could not have been the high priest.

The high priest does not sacrifice himself, instead G_D provided the sacrifice himself.
 
I think you have a point here, although I would question even jesus having the power to forgive sins.

As in jesus forgave sins by the power of G_D, not by his own power.

Another point is that your analogy is flawed, if jesus was the eternal sacrifice, he could not have been the high priest.

The high priest does not sacrifice himself, instead G_D provided the sacrifice himself.
Are you saying Jesus is NOT G-D? Not part of the Blessed Trinity? That He is merely a human being? Of course being G-d incarnate, Jesus could and did forgive sins on His own authority. To say otherwise is to say that G-d is in fact not all powerful. Cleary He is all powerful, even when made flesh.

We can see that His Resurrection, for example, was entirely done through HIS OWN Divine power and authority, an authority that extends over even life and death, let alone sin - ‘freely I lay down my life and freely I take it up again’ (John 10:18).

Secondly, take a good long look at the part of the Gospels where Jesus forgives the sins of the paralysed man - especially the end, ‘all marvelled at G-D who had given such power TO MEN’ (Matt 9:8). They says this, of course, not understanding that Jesus IS G-d, just as they called Him the carpenter’s son not knowing that He wasn’t Joseph’s son.

G-d emphatically does not give the authority to forgive sins just to ONE man, being Jesus, but to more than one! It’s foretelling that Jesus would give this authority to others besides Himself.

Now how can you say Jesus was not the victim? John made clear that He was - ‘behold the Lamb of G-d who takes away the sins of the world’. The Lamb that takes away sin is a clear reference to the Passover Lamb, whose blood spared the Israelites from death, as well as the animal sacrifices offered by the Israelites for their sins. Jesus the lamb was definitely a victim! And if Jesus wasn’t the victim why was it HIS death which atoned for sin, and who or what WAS the sacrificial victim?

You don’t make any sense with a lot of what you’re saying.
 
I think you have a point here, although I would question even jesus having the power to forgive sins.

As in jesus forgave sins by the power of G_D, not by his own power.

Another point is that your analogy is flawed, if jesus was the eternal sacrifice, he could not have been the high priest.

The high priest does not sacrifice himself, instead G_D provided the sacrifice himself.
Jesus had the power BECAUSE he is God. That is one of the aspects of the Trinity. Now, if you want to say that the Father allowed the Son, in Human Form to have the power, that is fine as well.

The point that you make about high priest vs sacrifice, in my mind, has always been aswered with the story of Abraham and Isaac. God provided the real offering. Jesus was the sacrifice, but that night before, Jesus offered himself with his own hands
 
Let me ask you a question:

Do Christians believe that the preaching of the Gospel carries with it, for those who believe and trust in the message, the forgiveness of their sins by God for the sake of Christ?

To put it another way:

Do they believe that the suffering and death of Jesus has made atonement for their sins and that the church, when she proclaims this truth and encourages trust in Christ, carries the full benefits of this atonement to those believers?

There is nothing different in this than when a Protestant Pastor or a Catholic priest announce the mercy of God to sinners whether it be in the context of the Sunday service or the confessional.
Deep. I think I like this post.
 
Most Protestant faiths, mine included, believe it is scriptural (James 5:16) and beneficial to confess sins to other believers. However, a human being does not offer forgiveness of sins for a person on behalf of The Father. Only God forgives sins through the intercession of Jesus Christ, The True High Priest. We confess our sins to one another because we truly want to “put the sin away” and move on. We are then accountable to each other if we fall back into that pattern of sin and the people that we have “confessed” this sin can, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, come to us and graciously bring it to our attention and offer encouragement to help us rehabilitate of that sin. Confession of sins to one another lifts the weight of that sin off because we truly acknowlege it, make it public, and KNOW we truly want to be forgiven and be cleansed of that sin.

I have no problem with confession of sins to a Catholic Priest but I do not think that it is scriptural to believe the Priest actually offers forgiveness of that sin for God. I do think if the Priest is in good standing with God and is walking obediently in his personal life with God that his telling someone “God has forgiven your sins” on behalf of God is a good thing.
So did Jesus give his followers the same authority on earth that he had? Does that not include the ability to forigve sins?
 
“So did Jesus give his followers the same authority on earth that he had? Does that not include the ability to forigve sins?”

No.

“*If we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us…”
1 John 1:9

Jesus said, “Father, forgive these people, because they don’t know what they are doing.”
Luke 23:34

God is my only Father.

Scripture says we are to forgive others as we are forgiven, however, that is so we can be in a right relationship with God. Sin can only truly be forgiven by God since we sin against God only.*
 
“So did Jesus give his followers the same authority on earth that he had? Does that not include the ability to forigve sins?”

No.

If we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us…”
1 John 1:9

Jesus said, “Father, forgive these people, because they don’t know what they are doing.”
Luke 23:34

God is my only Father.

Scripture says we are to forgive others as we are forgiven, however, that is so we can be in a right relationship with God. Sin can only truly be forgiven by God since we sin against God only.

John 20:22-23
“Whose sins you have forgiven…”

Matt 16:19 and 18:18 about the binding and loosing
 
Jn 20:
21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

The distinction being missed by those who oppose auricular confession is that the priest isn’t forgiving my sins from his own power; it is Christ and His power working through the priest.

For example, did Peter, by his own power, strike dead Ananias and Sapphira? Did Peter by his own power raise Tabitha from the dead? I don’t hear anyone making that argument; we believe it is the power of Christ working through Peter.

To Pokedaughter’s reply:
Jesus Christ is my only Priest.
Hebrews 7:25-28
Romans 8:38
Christ is our Eternal High Priest. Just as all people of Israel were made priests, yet the Levitical priesthood remained, so all Christians have been called to be priests, yet the NT does not do away with a seperate priesthood.
 
I believe in John 20:23 that:
Jesus was saying that the believer can boldly declare the certainty of a sinner’s forgiveness by the Father because of the work of His Son if that sinner has repented and believed the gospel.

I feel we as lay people as well as some Priests and Clergy,** who are walking in Godly obedience**, are used by God to give our brethren confidence that God is real, God loves them, and that God’s promises are true. Especially the forgiveness of sins when one truly has a repentant heart.

I must say that I can not rely on a Priest or anyone else to “Forgive” my sins first of all because I only go to my Father through the intercession and relationship with my Saviour. Secondly I do not trust that a human being, even a Priest, is always in right standing with God and therefore I do not have confidence in man. I let the Holy Spirit guide me in whom I should confess my sins. If it were to be a priest then I would go to him and allow God to use him to give me confidence that I have been forgiven.

I do not believe any human being holds that same authority as the Trinity in any situation. We are only vessels of Divine use.
No one is holy enough to fill that position.
 
I believe in John 20:23 that:
Jesus was saying that the believer can boldly declare the certainty of a sinner’s forgiveness by the Father because of the work of His Son if that sinner has repented and believed the gospel.
Yet Christ was speaking explicitly to the 11 gathered together. There is nothing in Scripture or the Christian Tradition that Christ’s words were directed to every believer.
I must say that I can not rely on a Priest or anyone else to “Forgive” my sins first of all because I only go to my Father through the intercession and relationship with my Saviour.
And that is what is done in the confessional, with the priest. In a similar situation, why didn’t God raise Tabitha by himself? Why did He use Peter? If you note in that passage (Acts 9:32-43), the disciples sent for Peter, not Tabitha’s family - who, by your reasoning, should have discerned by the Holy Spirit who was to heal her.
Secondly I do not trust that a human being, even a Priest, is always in right standing with God and therefore I do not have confidence in man. I let the Holy Spirit guide me in whom I should confess my sins. If it were to be a priest then I would go to him and allow God to use him to give me confidence that I have been forgiven.
Are you always in right standing with God? If you are need to confess your mortal sins (1 Jn 5:16-17), then you are not in right standing with God - at which point, are you assured you will correctly discern to whom you should confess your sins.
I do not believe any human being holds that same authority as the Trinity in any situation. We are only vessels of Divine use.
No one is holy enough to fill that position.
Again, I return to the example of Tabitha. Who commands the authority to raise someone from the dead? Peter or God? I believe we agree it is God - yet God used Peter:
40 But Peter sent them all out and knelt down and prayed, and turning to the body, he said, “Tabitha, arise.”

Peter was exercising God’s power and authority.
 
The priest is only the instrument in the forgiveness of sins. It is Jesus Christ who works through him in the sacrament of penance In Persona Christi (In The Person of Christ).
 
I think of myself as a follower of jesus.

One of the aspects of Catholicism that has baffled me, is a priest forgiving sins.

This seems to contravene the very nature of G_D.

The truth is any sin, is first and foremost a sin against G_D, how can a priest forgive my sins?
Under normal circumstances, would you:
  • marry without your pastor?
  • baptize without your pastor?
  • recieve the annointing of the sick without your pastor?
  • not consult your pastor after committing mortal sin?
  • have a funeral without your pastor?
    Same goes for Catholics and confession.
:tiphat: to Lilly M!

If you aren’t Catholic (or Orthodox), I wouldn’t worry about it too much though. The sacrament of confession isn’t available to you and is not expected of you.
 
I believe in John 20:23 that:
Jesus was saying that the believer can boldly declare the certainty of a sinner’s forgiveness by the Father because of the work of His Son if that sinner has repented and believed the gospel.

I feel we as lay people as well as some Priests and Clergy,** who are walking in Godly obedience**, are used by God to give our brethren confidence that God is real, God loves them, and that God’s promises are true. Especially the forgiveness of sins when one truly has a repentant heart.

I must say that I can not rely on a Priest or anyone else to “Forgive” my sins first of all because I only go to my Father through the intercession and relationship with my Saviour. Secondly I do not trust that a human being, even a Priest, is always in right standing with God and therefore I do not have confidence in man. I let the Holy Spirit guide me in whom I should confess my sins. If it were to be a priest then I would go to him and allow God to use him to give me confidence that I have been forgiven.

I do not believe any human being holds that same authority as the Trinity in any situation. We are only vessels of Divine use.
No one is holy enough to fill that position.
What about the rest of the passage? What about holding sins bound? If we are to forgive each other, that should not be possible, unless it is discussing some other method of forgiving sins. It is illogical to say that it is telling me I can be certain that God forgives me when it tells them that they can hold sins bound and not fogiven.
 
I believe in John 20:23 that:
Jesus was saying that the believer can boldly declare the certainty of a sinner’s forgiveness by the Father because of the work of His Son if that sinner has repented and believed the gospel.
John 20:23 (KJV) reads: “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”

Jesus doesn’t sound like he’s talking about “declaring” anything. The verb is “forgive,” not “declare to be forgiven” or “preach the gospel of forgiveness.” And notice the clauses in the conditional – Jesus says, “If you forgive on earth, then I will forgive in heaven,” not “If I forgive in heaven, then you can declare someone forgiven on earth.”

Isn’t it a big stretch to go from the verb “forgive” to the phrase “boldly declare the certainty of a sinner’s forgiveness”? Doesn’t your interpretation get Our Lord’s conditional statement backwards?
 
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