forgiveness of sins

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GaryTaylor said:
Do you feel you have this authority? Just asking, personally I never felt this way.
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If you sin against me then I have the authority to forgive you.

When it comes to forgiving sin on the large scale, no.
 
aidanbradypop said:
For conversation’s sake 😃

“We all, as believers, receive the Holy Spirit. We all, as believers, can forgive or retain sins.”

Have fun. lol
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There is nothing fun about this. I find it sad, indeed, that people make their own definitions in order to fit with what they wish to believe. As has been said over and over again on thread after thread, we must seek the truth and conform our lives to that truth when it is found, even when it flies in the face of what we want to believe or have previously believed.

When we build our own belief system based upon our personal whims (“our faith tradition doesn’t have priests therefore the Scriptures can’t mean that we should confess to a priest”) we create a god and a religion of our own making.

I sometimes don’t like the fact that I must forgive my enemies; even love them. This goes against human nature (at least fallen human nature). But I must, regardless. I can’t say “well that can’t be what Jesus meant” because I find it difficult.

The same goes for confession. The words of Jesus could not be more clear. He gave the authority to forgive sins (or not) to his Church and any wiggling around this fact in order to make one more comfortable in their position does not bring one closer to the truth. In fact, it is a grave error that results in people treating their own sins with a cavalier attitude which can have eternal consequences.
 
Anna_Scott said:
Gary,
Excellent points. Spiritual direction is so very important, and we must come to true repentance when asking for forgiveness, whether confessing to a Priest or to God alone. Sometimes, a Priest knows we lack true repentance and lack the commitment to avoid repeating the same sin. In such cases, Absolution is denied. That is one example anyway.

Anna
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Also when you are entertaining guilt consistently over what has been forgiven, sometimes its hard to forgive yourself.
 
SteveVH said:
There is nothing fun about this. I find it sad, indeed, that people make their own definitions in order to fit with what they wish to believe. As has been said over and over again on thread after thread that we must seek the truth and conform our lives to that truth when it is found, even when it flies in the face of what we want to believe or have previously believed.

When we build our own belief system based upon our own personal whims (“our faith tradition doesn’t have priests therefore the Scriptures can’t mean that we should confess to a priest”) we create a god and a religion of our own making.

I sometimes don’t like the fact that I must forgive my enemies; even love them. This goes against human nature (at least fallen human nature). But I must, regardless. I can’t say “well that can’t be what Jesus meant” because I find it difficult.

The same goes for confession. The words of Jesus could not be more clear. He gave the authority to forgive sins (or not) to his Church and any wiggling around this fact in order to make one more comfortable in their position does not bring one closer to the truth. In fact, it is a grave error that results in people treating their own sins with a cavalier attitude which can have eternal consequences.
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I totally agree but that still does not address the point she was making.

She was stating that if we all have the HS then we all have the authority to forgive or retain sins of someone who sins against us. Sticky…sticky ground there but I do not believe she was saying that she can forgive my sins in the place of God. I am pretty sure she means that only God forgives the sins of man.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Also when you are entertaining guilt consistently over what has been forgiven, sometimes its hard to forgive yourself.
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I have been in a 12 step program for years and people just like to tell someone else what they have done. Getting it out in the open and telling someone really seems to help the person learn to overcome it and move on.
 
aidanbradypop said:
I totally agree but that still does not address the point she was making.

She was stating that if we all have the HS then we all have the authority to forgive or retain sins of someone who sins against us. Sticky…sticky ground there but I do not believe she was saying that she can forgive my sins in the place of God. I am pretty sure she means that only God forgives the sins of man.
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And she is right, only God can forgive the sins of man. He has chosen to do this through the Church and its sacraments. It is why the priest is in persona Christi. It is only through the authority of Christ that the Church has its authority. They cannot be separated. It is, after all, Christ’s Church and it is Christ who instituted the sacraments.

And I have never heard nor read that if one has the Holy Spirit that this somehow gives them authority to forgive sins. I’d like to see the verse that supports such a position.
 
SteveVH said:
. . . . In fact, it is a grave error that results in people treating their own sins with a cavalier attitude which can have eternal consequences.
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Steve,
This one sentence has so much significance. I have been guilty of this “cavalier attitude” regarding my own sins far too often. A Priest, guided by the Holy Spirit, can call us out on this.

I think there is an epidemic of “cavalier attitudes” when it comes to sin–and you are right, it can have eternal consequences.

Peace and Blessing,
Anna
 
aidanbradypop said:
I have been in a 12 step program for years and people just like to tell someone else what they have done. Getting it out in the open and telling someone really seems to help the person learn to overcome it and move on.
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Close friend of mine has been also for years. Personally I think they wear him out with the any time of night calls, it is admirable though. He as a cradle Catholic ironically has the same view of the forgiveness of sin as you. Yes, its a dilemma, unfortunately not restricted to only those outside the Latin Rite. He called me over the weekend to inform about another Catholic friend who embraced the same theology. He passed away last week in his sleep.

Needless to say I’m a bit skeptical about that theology, I admit the final outcome is indeed in the Lords hand. I believe error can be mitigated through the priest though.
 
Anna_Scott said:
Steve,
This one sentence has so much significance. I have been guilty of this “cavalier attitude” regarding my own sins far too often. A Priest, guided by the Holy Spirit, can call us out on this.

I think there is an epidemic of “cavalier attitudes” when it comes to sin–and you are right, it can have eternal consequences.

Peace and Blessing,
Anna
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Anna, I think we all have been guilty of a cavalier attitude toward sin at various times in our lives. It is really easy to do. The longer I stay away from confession the easier it is for me to rationalize that my sins aren’t really all that bad and that God will understand because he loves me. After awhile, we don’t believe our sins are really sins anymore. We become so comfortable in our sin that we can’t imagine life without it. We become very attached to our sins and don’t want to let them go; like an old friend. But the reality is that our sins remain, regardless of our attitude toward them.

I can assume this attitude very easily which is why I must frequent the confessional. And when I leave the confessional even the smallest of my sins becomes clear and my desire for sin diminishes while my desire for holiness increases. The grace received in the sacrament is transformative. And we must be transformed. Just telling God “sorry about that one” does not carry the same profound, transformative grace that is found in the sacrament.
 
SteveVH said:
Anna, I think we all have been guilty of a cavalier attitude toward sin at various times in our lives. It is really easy to do. The longer I stay away from confession the easier it is for me to rationalize that my sins aren’t really all that bad and that God will understand because he loves me. After awhile, we don’t believe our sins are really sins anymore. We become so comfortable in our sin that we can’t imagine life without it. We become very attached to our sins and don’t want to let them go; like an old friend. But the reality is that our sins remain, regardless of our attitude toward them.

I can assume this attitude very easily which is why I must frequent the confessional. And when I leave the confessional even the smallest of my sins becomes clear and my desire for sin diminishes while my desire for holiness increases. The grace received in the sacrament is transformative. And we must be transformed. Just telling God “sorry about that one” does not carry the same profound, transformative grace that is found in the sacrament.
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Steve,
This is a beautiful testament to the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Anna
 
aidanbradypop said:
There is a saying in the Episcopal Church “All may. Some should. None must.”
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Wow. What does one do with this? It sounds more like placating the congregation than anything else; kind of like “it doesn’t matter what one believes about the Eucharist, all are still invited to share. See how tolerant and inclusive we are?” I would not want to live with such uncertainty. What that “saying” actually says is that it isn’t important enough to worry about. Not a big deal. I would disagree whole heartedly and ask who ever came up with the saying to grow a spine.
aidanbradypop said:
I find it rather sad that many do not take advantage of this wonderful gift.
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Why? If it really doesn’t matter; if it is “optional”, what is sad about not doing it?
 
Anna_Scott said:
Steve,
This is a beautiful testament to the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Anna
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Thanks, Anna. Regardless of our particular faith tradition, we are all human. I only have to look inside to find what is most likely common among all of us. And while many of us may not share the same beliefs, one thing is for sure. We all share in sin. I’m pretty much an expert in that territory. 😃

And with that, off to work for a little while.

God bless.

Steve
 
expectthebest said:
Thank you all.

I guess what I am getting at isn’t necessarily that there might be confession in protestant denominations, but that it isn’t necessary for salvation. A Catholic must go to confession to be saved. Lutherans, Anglicans, and others, asa far as I know, do not believe it is necessary to go to Confession but rather it is optional. It is my understanding also that it is not considered a sacrament. To have this teaching, the Biblical understanding of binding and loosing must be Substantially different. Im curious why this is.

Thanks!
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Lutherans believe in the sacramental nature of confession. The Lutheran Confessions refer to Holy Absolution as a sacrament but most Lutherans focus on the 2 sacraments instituted by Christ. People are urged to go to private confession though the practice is infrequent [mainly before Easter, before one is confirmed or during serious illness].

At a Lutheran Mass, the celebrant forgives all present who have confessed their sins; this occurs right before the entrance hymn/ procession.
 
SteveVH said:
Wow. What does one do with this? It sounds more like placating the congregation than anything else; kind of like “it doesn’t matter what one believes about the Eucharist, all are still invited to share. See how tolerant and inclusive we are?” I would not want to live with such uncertainty. What that “saying” actually says is that it isn’t important enough to worry about. Not a big deal. I would disagree whole heartedly and ask who ever came up with the saying to grow a spine.
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You assume a lot from very little. Maybe asking a question and allowing me to answer it would probably serve us both better. 🙂

General Confession before Eucharist is done every Sunday. Nothing is keeping individuals from going to private confession. Many priest actually encourage Episcopalians to go to private confession. Some take them up on it and others do not. The same can be said for Catholicism. Many Catholics I know have not been to confession in many years and many believe it to be something of the past. As you can see, sadly, it is on both sides of the Tiber. 😦

As with the Eucharist, it does matter what you believe. We, as Episcopalians, believe the Body and Blood of Christ is the bread and wine.

Can I judge Catholicism because I know a few Catholics that do not believe in the RP? :confused:
Why? If it really doesn’t matter; if it is “optional”, what is sad about not doing it?
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I am sorry our two traditions believe differently on private confession. 🤷 It is sad that many people to do take advantage of such a wonderful gift. It really helps the soul. What else do you wish for me to say?
 
Anna_Scott said:
Kliska,

I think this is the perfect place to go into detail. Non Catholics are permitted to disagree with any Catholic doctrine as long as it is done respectfully. If I remember correctly, a single thread can hit 1000 posts before being closed, 🙂

I think a good place to start would be to explain your interpretation of John 20:19-23. Did Jesus mean what he said? Were the Disciples given the authority to forgive sins?

John 20:19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Anna
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Before typing anything new up, did you get a chance to read my other post? Here’s a bit of it;
A protestant and RCC/ECC on binding and loosing, as I understand it, really isn’t that radically different in interpretation, but in application it is. So, in my understanding the idea of binding and loosing is a Jewish phrase that, written the way it is, means that whatever is bound is already bound in Heaven, whatever is loosed is already loosed. In other words, in forgiving sin, they are already forgiven, and it is an application of that forgiveness, a pronouncement, or a reminder.
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We do indeed tend to believe that with sin and forgiveness it is directly tied to the gospel. In Peter’s preaching at Pentecost to the Jewish people, then to the Samaritans, then to the Gentiles, Peter declared the good news as it is already settled in Heaven and gives access to others by opening the possibility for them to faithe on the message he shared, and hence on Jesus, and it is by faith that we tap into grace.
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When my “brand” of protestants confess their sins one to another, the idea is that it opens the way for Godly counsel, for support, for advice, and for a reminder that Jesus sacrifice and blood are necessary and sufficient to cleanse them from all sin. Further, most protestants I know really only know one kind of contrition that means anything at all, and that is what the RCC has labeled “perfect contrition.” Most of us see no other kind, if that makes sense, and that is the contrition we are to have when going to God and confessing to Him.
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In short, we can boldly declare the certainty of forgiveness by God because of the work of the Son IF they believe the gospel, and faithe on Jesus. We can also boldly declare that those who have heard the gospel rightly preached that their sins are not forgiven. This is for sins against God. For sins against us or our fellow man, those sins are forgiven by us as individuals and if we don’t forgive other humans it shows we lack an understanding of God’s forgiveness of us and how lost we are without Him.

Confessing one to another, believer to believer is a very good thing and a very good practice, protestants such as me also believe in the priesthood of all believers.
 
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