Forgiveness soley by believing?

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The NT is pretty awesome too - particularly awesome in that Jesus in it doesn’t ABOLISH the OT, not a jot or tittle. Rather He FULFILS it. While keeping important bits like the 10 commandments and so forth. 🙂 .
exactly…so why are you insisting to live “by the law” instead of living by Jesus example?

Going to priest puts Jesus on a side note…not the intercessor.

Forgiveness from a priest for sins you have comitted that do not include the priest exit Jesus.
 
exactly…so why are you insisting to live “by the law” instead of living by Jesus example?

Going to priest puts Jesus on a side note…not the intercessor.

Forgiveness from a priest for sins you have comitted that do not include the priest exit Jesus.
So going to a priest or pastor to get baptised or married puts Jesus on a side note too, by your logic, since the role the priest takes is similar in all cases. 🤷 Jesus does NOT exit when the priest takes up the water or pronounces a couple husband and wife, neither does he when you confess (as James tells us we need to) to each other.

I don’t get how you could think the Apostles’ and their successors’ authority to forgive ONLY extended to sins that concerned them. This is a nonsense.

It turns Jesus statement into something like ‘whose sins (against you) you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins (agaisnt you) you retain, they are retained’. Which interpretation is in fact a senseless restatement of the bleeding obvious, the technical term for which is a tautology. NOT what Jesus intended!

By the way, read carefully the passage where Jesus forgives the paralytic. It says what at the end? … ‘they marvelled at God who had given such authority to MEN’. Highly significant, in that it refers to plural (multiple) men, not just one man. In other words not just Jesus!
 
So going to a priest or pastor to get baptised or married puts Jesus on a side note too, by your logic, since the role the priest takes is similar in all cases. 🤷 Jesus does NOT exit when the priest takes up the water or pronounces a couple husband and wife, neither does he when you confess (as James tells us we need to) to each other.

I don’t get how you could think the Apostles’ and their successors’ authority to forgive ONLY extended to sins that concerned them. This is a nonsense.

It turns Jesus statement into something like ‘whose sins (against you) you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins (agaisnt you) you retain, they are retained’. Which interpretation is in fact a senseless restatement of the bleeding obvious, the technical term for which is a tautology. NOT what Jesus intended!

By the way, read carefully the passage where Jesus forgives the paralytic. It says what at the end? … ‘they marvelled at God who had given such authority to MEN’. Highly significant, in that it refers to plural (multiple) men, not just one man. In other words not just Jesus!
yep-I think gave us the example himself when Jesus went to John to be Baptized.
 
Hey Lily,

I was going to jump in on all this but you are doing nothing but a fine job. Notice the ‘not’ addressing of all of what you said, just a pick 'n choose what I want to answer kinda deal.

As I was reading clh’s posts the scriptures that were popping up in my head you pretty much used in answer in the your following posts.👍

I just want to add that I remember when priest had answered a pastor on a piece that had to do with same thing. Sorry if this is repetitious.

An assembly of God minister had claimed that the priest was usurping the power of God by doing such a thing. ( Remember Jesus was accused of blasphemy when He did this too. ) The priest asked the pastor what gift of the Holy Spirit had he received. The pastor said the gift of healing. ( 1 Cor 12 ) The priest then asked why he acted like God because he thought only God could do that. The pastor said he was right he didn’t do it but God did it through his hands. The priest then asked if God can use you to heal bodies then why can He not use me in the same way to heal souls ? ( Jn 20:19-23, 2 Cor 5:18ff) Both gifts are in the
bible ! Which is more important a physical healing or spiritual healing ? Okay, I’ll stifle !

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )
 
So going to a priest or pastor to get baptised or married puts Jesus on a side note too, by your logic, since the role the priest takes is similar in all cases. 🤷 Jesus does NOT exit when the priest takes up the water or pronounces a couple husband and wife, neither does he when you confess (as James tells us we need to) to each other.

I don’t get how you could think the Apostles’ and their successors’ authority to forgive ONLY extended to sins that concerned them. This is a nonsense.

It turns Jesus statement into something like ‘whose sins (against you) you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins (agaisnt you) you retain, they are retained’. Which interpretation is in fact a senseless restatement of the bleeding obvious, the technical term for which is a tautology. NOT what Jesus intended!

By the way, read carefully the passage where Jesus forgives the paralytic. It says what at the end? … ‘they marvelled at God who had given such authority to MEN’. Highly significant, in that it refers to plural (multiple) men, not just one man. In other words not just Jesus!
Jesus gave the authority to the apostles.

who else?

to MEN.

The apostles.

so what?

Not your priest…

Jesus DEATH paid the ultimate price so that HE alone will be your intecessor.

You are selling Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver every time you enter the confessional.

shame on ya.
 
yep-I think gave us the example himself when Jesus went to John to be Baptized.
The Roman Catholic Church bases their practice of confession to a priest primarily on **Catholic tradition. **

Catholic do point to John 20:23, “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

From this verse, Catholics claim that God gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins, and that authority was passed on to the successors of the apostles, e.g. the bishops and priests of the Roman Catholic Church.

There are several problems with this interpretation. (1) John 20:23 nowhere mentions confession of sin. (2) John 20:23 nowhere promises, or even hints, that the authority to forgive sins would be passed on to the successors of the apostles. Jesus’ promise was specifically directed to the apostles. (3) The New Testament nowhere states that the apostles would even have successors to their apostolic authority.

Similarly, Catholics point to Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 (binding and loosing) as evidence for the Catholic Church’s authority to forgive sins. The same three above points apply equally to these Scriptures.

**Again, the concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture. **

We are to confess our sins to God (1 John 1:9). As New Covenant believers, we do not need mediators between us and God. We can go to God directly because of Jesus’ sacrifice for us. 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
 
Jesus gave the authority to the apostles.

who else?

to MEN.

The apostles.

so what?

Not your priest…

Jesus DEATH paid the ultimate price so that HE alone will be your intecessor.

You are selling Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver every time you enter the confessional.

shame on ya.
So you acknowledge that He gave the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles. Excellent, good start. Note that His death, resurrection and sole intercessorship didn’t prevent His giving the Apostles a share in His authority to forgive sins. And it doesn’t change the fact that you, whenever you pray for anyone as He bid you do, are an intercessor too!

Now for the next step. Did He not ALSO say to them ‘what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven’?

In other words that He would ratify in Heaven ANY authoritative teaching they made and any authoritative action they took? Not that they dictated to Him, far from it, but nonetheless that through His guidance and that of the Holy Spirit that their official teaching and actions at least (as opposed to their private behaviour) would be spot-on.

Now what WAS almost the first action they did, under guidance by the Holy Spirit after Pentecost, among the first of these ‘binding’ actions that was to be bound in heaven also? THEY CHOSE AND LAID HANDS ON A SUCCESSOR! Matthias was chosen to replace Judas.

He succeeded IN FULL to Judas’ office (as Peter said ‘let another take his office’) and thus to all the power and authority that the other Apostles had. Nowhere is it indicated, for example, that he lacked the authority to forgive sins. They surely passed that on to him along with all the other authority and all the other responsibilities of Apostleship. So he too became subject to the promise that what HE bound on Earth would be bound in Heaven, no? It’s one of the perks of Apostolic office, no?

Likewise with Paul, if I recall rightly he sought out the endorsement of the other Apostles - their blessing and approval - before beginning his ministry to the Gentiles. So what Paul bound on Earth too would be bound in Heaven. That’s why we recognise the infallibility of HIS Epistles and that they are authentic Apostolic teaching along with those of Peter, James and John.

So these two, at least, had full Apostolic power and office. More than that, they too, also chose and laid hand hands on successors (Paul, for example, is known to have consecrated one of the men who succeeded Peter as head of the the Roman church - I think it was Linus).

Now Apostolic power didn’t get diluted in any way by this, any more than it had been when Paul was tapped on the shoulder by the original 11. So logically … Linus ALSO had all the authority of the Apostles (including the power to forgive and the promise that HIS actions would also be bound in heaven).

And so it went down the generations - we can trace an unbroken line of consecrated bishops, ALL with full Apostolic authority and powers (including each new generation of bishops having both the power to forgive sins and Christ’s promise about the binding and loosing - it’s His means of keeping the Church on track and free from error in its official teaching).

Among all this passing on of Apostolic authority comes the fact that all priests were granted (as it is well within the rights of the Bishops as successors of the Apostles) the authority to forgive sins. Just as the original 11 appointed Stephen and other priests and ‘presbyters’ who had some but not all of their power. That’s where my priest comes into the mix.

It’s an unbroken chain of power and command and authority (including many other things, of course, than simply the authority to forgive sins) - it’s what’s called Apostolic Succession, and every Catholic priest has a share in it.
 
1 Tim 2:1 - I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all men

Is St. Paul telling God that He should do this, or us ?

In 1 Tim 2:5 the word for one means ‘primary’ not ‘sole’. If you think it to be sole then we have scripture contradicting scripture right here in the same chapter in vs.1.

When someone asks us to pray for them shouldn’t we tell them that they should just pray to Jesus because there is just one intercessor between God & man & it’s not me ? The good book is an intercessor between God & man. Does anyone find a problem with using their bible ?

In Jn 20:23, when Jesus mentions the word retain, how does one retain ones sin unless you first hear them. Who is the one that is suppose to hear in order to retain ? Jas 5:13-16. Who was summoned to hear the sick persons sins ?

St Paul stated in 2 Cor 2:10 that, Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the person of Christ. He said the same thing as someone has already brought up in
2 Cor 5:18ff.

Jesus did not give them this power to forgive for it just to end at the death of the apostles. It has been so from the times of the old testament & has not ended in the new. The difference is the sacrifice. Jesus is the one sacrifice. In the old we had to go to a priest, tell him our sins & then we were told what animal(s) to offer to God. If we had to still do that today, ( the direction our country is heading especially with all the decisions that our judges are making these days on moral issues ) we would petless. We would be offering up our cats & dogs to God for our sin.

May God Bless, Static ( 1 Tim 1:15 )
 
You are short changing Christ, and belittling His death if you “go to” confession to a priest.

Romans 8:34

–“It is Christ who died; yes, rather, who is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God; who also makes intercession for us!”

Please, don’t sell our Christ short by putting a stumbling block (a priest) between Him and you. It is not pleasing.
Jesus gave the authority to the apostles.

who else?

to MEN.

The apostles.

so what?

Not your priest…

Jesus DEATH paid the ultimate price so that HE alone will be your intecessor.

You are selling Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver every time you enter the confessional.

shame on ya.
:confused: So…apostolic authority vanished with the death of the last Apostle?
 
We are to confess our sins to God (1 John 1:9). As New Covenant believers, we do not need mediators between us and God. We can go to God directly because of Jesus’ sacrifice for us. 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
Serious flaw in your assertion here…1 John 1:9 actually doesn’t say we are to confess our sins to God. Here is what it actually says:
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

By inserting “God” to the verse you have effectively made null your entire post.
 
Serious flaw in your assertion here…1 John 1:9 actually doesn’t say we are to confess our sins to God. Here is what it actually says:
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

By inserting “God” to the verse you have effectively made null your entire post.
Oh have mercy…

who exactly is the “HE” in the entire first chapter of 1 John???

Let us take the entire chapter…all ten verses…

oh no…let us just go from verse 5-9 don’t we???

5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all** sin.

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

you must read in context.

the ‘he’ is GOD.

The entire chapter is referencing GOD.

I did not insert God…

God already put himself THERE.**
 
Acts 10:43 says “All the prophets testify about Him [Jesus] that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Jesus Himself said “If you love me, you will keep my commandments”.

He also said, “Not everyone who cries Lord, Lord will be saved; but he who does the will of the Father.”

Don’t these words of Jesus Himself make it clear that just believing isn’t enough.
 
Jesus Himself said “If you love me, you will keep my commandments”.

He also said, “Not everyone who cries Lord, Lord will be saved; but he who does the will of the Father.”

Don’t these words of Jesus Himself make it clear that just believing isn’t enough.
I must agree…

JUST believing is not enough. You must have the faith to match.

Satan himself will say Lord…but, he places NO faith in Christ.
 
Oh have mercy…

who exactly is the “HE” in the entire first chapter of 1 John???

Let us take the entire chapter…all ten verses…

oh no…let us just go from verse 5-9 don’t we???

5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all** sin.

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

you must read in context.

the ‘he’ is GOD.

The entire chapter is referencing GOD.

I did not insert God…

God already put himself THERE.**

Whoa there…you are the one who picked one verse and inserted God into it. If God and He are all over the chapter, then why did this one particular verse out of all of them NOT have God or He in it? Hmmm…methinks someone has preconcieved notions and must fit scripture to them rather than the other way around.

As for context, yes, let’s take context into consideration. How about the context of the entire Bible rather than what fits your theology? Many have already pointed out the passages that clearly show we are to confess to one another…and that Christ gave the power to forgive, or not forgive to the Apostles and their successors…by simple logic how can they forgive or not, if we don’t tell them our sins??

Anyway…I’m not gonna get into some long back and forth on this. You have been given relevant information so you can do with it as you please.

Peace be to you.
 
I must agree…

JUST believing is not enough. You must have the faith to match.

Satan himself will say Lord…but, he places NO faith in Christ.
What do you mean he places no faith in Christ? He knows Christ saves, just as you and I do … what he does is refuse to serve Him. As you and I also (sometimes) do.
 
one of Satan’s favorite verses to con you into beleiving that somehow…baptism saves.

oh have mercy!
Jesus does have mercy, clh. He pours out His saving grace upon us in baptism. That is another thread, most likely, but since you are new, I wanted to encourage you to read the forum rules. One of them is that you are not to call our Sacred Apostolic Teaching “satanic”.
you may be in a state of misconception of what this truly means.
Heads up, clh. CAtholic Answers Forum is not a venue for you to educate CAtholics on what you think we ought to believe. It is here to answer questions people have about the Catholic faith. If you want to evangelize or correct others’ beliefs, this is not the place.
the "C"hurch is not solely the Catholic church, …to take on this presupposition puts limits on God and His power.
There is only one Church, clh, and all Christians who are validly baptized are members of that one Church. The Church is the Body of Christ. He has one Body, of which He is the head. This is God’s choice (to build ONE church). No one is “putting limits on God”.
the "C"hurch has absolutely NO authority to forgive any sin unless it is a “horizontal” offense against the church, but ultimate forgiveness comes from God alone and must be dealt with on the vertical plane between the sinner and God…ALONE. No "C"hurch involved.
Would you like to take this over to the priests forgiving sins thread? I think it would be more appropriate there.
Therefore…the term ““GOING to confession”” for forgiveness does NOT MEAN walking into your sactuary and confessing to a priest…having the "C"hurch grant you forgiveness is futile unless your sin is against the "C"hurch. Even then, you still must seek forgiveness from God alone.
Clearly, you do not understand the CAtholic teaching on this matter. It seems rather impudent for you to come in here and start instructing Catholics on the meaning of the Apostolic Faith which the Church has guarded for 2000 years.
…it means falling to your knees no matter where you are and confessing strait to Jesus…who is your only and sole intercessor between you and God.
I encourage this behavior. You might even consider this for some of the forum rules you have broken!
 
What do you mean he places no faith in Christ? He knows Christ saves, just as you and I do … what he does is refuse to serve Him. As you and I also (sometimes) do.
so, you think Satan has the God given faith that could save him???

right.
 
What do you mean he places no faith in Christ? He knows Christ saves, just as you and I do … what he does is refuse to serve Him. As you and I also (sometimes) do.
so, you think Satan has the God given faith that could save him???

right.
 
so, you think Satan has the God given faith that could save him???

right.
Actually…yes, thats right. Satan does know that were he to exercise his God-given “free will” he could be changed and “saved”. That would be faith in the knowledge of the truth…but he refuses to acknowledge it because he made his choice long ago and has never refuted that choice.

Remember: With GOD, all things ARE possible!

Yes or No?
 
Actually…yes, thats right. Satan does know that were he to exercise his God-given “free will” he could be changed and “saved”. That would be faith in the knowledge of the truth…but he refuses to acknowledge it because he made his choice long ago and has never refuted that choice.

Remember: With GOD, all things ARE possible!

Yes or No?
you are right.

However, scripture has laid out the plans for Satan…and we KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt what will happen.

Furthermore…God has removed Satan due to absolute blasphemy. We know this. He is fallen. So no…

Satan can not be saved. This is the one that we KNOW.
 
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