FORGIVENESS

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BIC:
Doesnt the church deny an individual the right to partake in the sacraments if they commit** a unpardonable sin as decided by the church**?
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Catholics who are not in a state of grace refrain from participation in the Eucharist. But when we have repented, repaired, confessed, and been pardoned of the sin, we may again receive the Lord in the Eucharist.
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BIC:
Where does this leave the person who feels like he is damned?
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As for the person who feels like he is damned, feeling damned, after you have repented and have come to the holy sacrament of reconciliation, is either a defect of faith or a kind of spiritual illness. The inability to “feel” forgiven does not relate to actual forgiveness but relates to a person’s failure to accept the forgiveness which the Lord has conferred.
There are no unpardonable sins. The only “unparrdonable” sin is one which is unrepented – unrepented because of an obdurate hardness of heart which rejects God.

In response to my request that you give a citation for your observation that the Church has “basically not forgiven individuals or viewed there sin as unforgivable” you responded,
What is the catholic church view on fornication?
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The fact that fornication is a “sin unto death” does not mean that it is unforgiveable. Did you think that the Church teaches that fornication is unforgiveable?
 
Hi BIC,

You said:

“When or how did the term “mortally” start being used (I say start due to the fact I couldn’t reference it) I can’t find no reference to it in the KJV. Is it named another way?”

I asked myself the same question. Then I remembered that the word Trinity is not in Scripture but we use it. The words venial and mortal are not used specifically in Scripture but the Church uses them to describe sin. The following Scriptures were helpful to me. Would you say that they are describing sins that could be classified as “mortal”? A mortal sin is a sin that puts your soul in jeopardy.

Galatians 5:19-21

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

James 1:13-15

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Hebrews 3:12-19

See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.” Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Romans 8:5-14
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation–but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Blessings,

Gene C.
 
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BIC:
Thanks for all your reply’s. In a nutshell the person is handed over to satan so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and thay person may truly repent? after this can the person come back to the church?

BIC

LAUS DEO
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You’ll never find the Catholic Church saying anything about “handing a person over to Satan.” People are moved by the grace of God to repent. But we may resist grace. A person who repents is always welcomed back to the Church. Jay
 
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BIC:
Thanks for all your reply’s. In a nutshell the person is handed over to satan …
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What??? Where’d you get that idea?

In terms my kids might use, the person is given a “time-out” until they realize their wrongdoing and repent of it and make satisfaction in accord with canon law.
 
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Katholikos:
You’ll never find the Catholic Church saying anything about “handing a person over to Satan.” People are moved by the grace of God to repent. But we may resist grace. A person who repents is always welcomed back to the Church. Jay
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Hi Jay

But doesnt it say that according to I COR 5:5 to hand him over to satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

BIC

LAUS DEO
 
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mercygate:
The fact that fornication is a “sin unto death” does not mean that it is unforgiveable. Did you think that the Church teaches that fornication is unforgiveable?
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Hi Mercygate

I wasnt sure what the lists were (if there is one) of what the church considers sin.

Sorry, I am here to learn, no offense meant

BIC

LAUS DEO
 
Greetings

Is I COR 5:5 dealing with incest (sexual immorality) only.

Thanks

BIC

LAUS DEO
 
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BIC:
In reference to Luke 17:3

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

How does the catholic church view this scripture?
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The same as everyone else.

I have read on these post incidents where the church has basically not forgiven individuals or viewed there sin as unforgivable?
Incorrect.
There is no such thing as an unforgivable sin - except that of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Christ made that rule - not the Church. The CCC makes it perfectly clear that all sins can be forgiven through the sacrament of reconciliation, but this sacrament requires the desire and participation of the sinner.

Does the church in essence condemned them to hell. Was this GOD’s command?

Thoughts?

BIC

LAUS DEO
The Church does carry the burden of “retaining sins” just like the apostles did. But if the sinner asks the Church for forgiveness- they forgive them.

Phil
 
Karl Keating, What Catholics Really Believe: Setting the Record Straight: 52 Answers to Common Misperceptions About the Catholic Faith,
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great. just great. thanks A WHOLE LOT for causing me to want yet another book. :banghead:

sorry for the interruption. you may now return unto your regularly scheduled thread.
 
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BIC:
But doesnt it say that according to I COR 5:5 to hand him over to satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
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There are two places in scriptures where Paul uses speaks about delivering the excommunicated to Satan: … you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus
1Cor. 5:5

By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1Tim 1:19:20
Note that the man excommunicated in Corinth was eventually reconciled to the church at Corinth. And note that Hymenaeus and Alexander were excommunicated so that they would learn that one cannot reject conscience without blaspheming. Certainly Paul had a hope that by being excommunicated that Hymenaeus and Alexander would come to their senses. These two heretics had to the false idea that a Christian can commit any sin imaginable with the guarantee that he has an “assurance of salvation” because he was once a Christian in a state of grace. This is wrong, because grace does not destroy free will. A Christian is always free to choose to commit mortal sin and fall from a state of grace.

A Christian that is excommunicated for unrepentant sin is like the dog that has returned to his own vomit. The unrepentant sinner is in a worse condition than they were in before they knew Jesus as their Savior, i.e. they have been delivered back to the Kingdom of Satan by their choice to be unrepentant for mortal sin.
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
2Peter 2:20-22The person living in unrepentant mortal sin has brought in the desolating abomination into his temple, and because he is in a state of mortal sin, he or she no longer has God dwelling in the sanctuary of his temple. If God has left a person’s temple desolate (uninhabited), that person will have no eternal life abiding within.If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.
1Cor 3:17

He who does not love abides in death. Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1John 3:14-15
 
Does the church in essence condemned them to hell. Was this GOD’s command?
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Bic,

Looking back over this thread, I note that scant reference has been made to the fact that it is sin which condemns a person to Hell, not the Church. Turning from God, rejecting him, refusing his mercy – these are what condemn the soul. “Excommunication” is merely a formal recognition of that fact. The Church does not condemn anybody to Hell. We do that all by ourselves.
 
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BIC:
I wasnt sure what the lists were (if there is one) of what the church considers sin.
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Generally, we start with the 10 Commandments. Aww. You knew that! 😛
 
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BIC:
Doesnt the church deny an individual the right to partake in the sacraments if they commit a unpardonable sin as decided by the church?

Where does this leave the person who feels like he is damned?

The above scripture is clear to forgive, although I agree with your statement of contrition and repentence. It still ask us to forgive.

BIC

LAUS DEO
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Absolution can and must be denied if the person declares the intention to persist in the mortal sin, and refuses to express contrition, thereby refusing to accept God’s mercy and forgiveness. The effects on the soul of the sinner are inherent in the sin, they are not imposed by the Church. The only unforgivable sin is the failure to accept God’s forgiveness and mercy. God always offers forgiveness, we have free will to accept or deny.

Where does this leave the person who feels like he is damned? In the same position as every other sinner (i.e., every one of us alive on the planet today) in the position of humble kneeling before God, in the person of the priest Jesus has chosen to extend his healing and forgiveness to us in the sacraments. In the position of repentence and petition for forgiveness, in contrition for our sin, in pleading for the grace to amend our lives.
 
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BIC:
Thanks for all your reply’s. In a nutshell the person is handed over to satan so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and thay person may truly repent? after this can the person come back to the church?

BIC

LAUS DEO
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nobody is handed over to Satan, anyone who serves Satan does so by personal choice, just as does someone who serves God. The person can repent, be healed and come back anytime he asks for it, as long as he is prepared to reject his service to Satan and serve the one true God. The church does not and cannot condemn anyone to hell, and has never done so. Only God does, and he does it only to one who freely chooses hell, that is, freely chooses to eternally dwell with Satan rather than with God.
 
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