Forgiveness

[Ginger2]

Matthew 18:21-22
21 Then Peter approaching asked him, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.

Matthew 18:15-17

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that `every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, **treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. **

Any thoughts?

 

[Julian0404]

Matthew 18:21-22
21 Then Peter approaching asked him, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, "I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.

Go to www.salvationhistory.com and get Scott Hahns CD on the meaning of Sevens in the Bible

Matthew 18:15-17

15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that `every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, **treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. **

We still do this today, it is called “intervention”, when someone’s behavior is so harmful and damaging to them and others, that as a family or group of friends, we intervene with the hope of bringing to the forefront the behavior which is so harmful.

Any thoughts?

 

[JRKH]

Quite a few actually.

May are expressed HERE

Peace
James

 

[Ginger2]

Thank you for responding…and for the link.

But you have misunderstood my question.

The first verses talk about forgiving without mention of remorse. Most if not all Christians would say we are to forgive even when the person is not sorry.

The second set of verses seem to say if the person is not sorry but continues to sin against you, you should “treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector”.

Most if not all Christians would still say “forgive”

So, what does it mean to “forgive”
and are we required to “forgive” the unrepentant sinner who continues to sin against us?
AND if so, what does it mean to forgive since we are told to treat that person as a “pagan”?

 

[JRKH]

Much later in the linked thread “Spockrates” and I got into discussing some of this. That is why I provided the link.

There appear to be levels of forgiveness and also there appears to be “internal” and “external” aspects to forgiveness.

Say a person “sins against me” and is not repentant.
Is it OK for me to harbor “nasty” thoughts about that person?
Is it OK for me to harbor 'ill will" toward that person?
Is it OK for me to “gloat” if that person falls on some misfortune?

Or rather is it my duty to pray for that persons repentance, not to me necessarily but to God?
Is it not my duty to Love that person, who is now my “enemy” even though I might not be able to continue in a relationship with them.

God Loves us even when we turn from Him. His forgiveness of us waits only on our response to that forgiveness.
It is as if we have a fight with our parents and storm out of the house. Dinner time approaches and our mother prepares a nice meal and sets out our plate. If we come home - dinner is already waiting for us. If we stay away - dinner is still there it’s just that we have not come home to eat it.

Thus it is that we should do all we can to Forgive internally and be prepared to quickly accept back anyone who has sinned against us once they have repented of their sin.
In this way we move closer to being “Perfect as your Heavenly Father is Perfect”.

Peace
James

 

[Paintressa]

I take that as God wants us to always be a forgivng person, regardless of what has been done to us. Much of the time we have to bring to someones attention what they have done to us, if they understand and are remorseful we forgive them & move on we’re not to hold grudges or gossip of what that person has done to us.
But if they don’t acknowledge they’re sinning against us & or refuse to stop & or be remoreseful God wants us to still be forgiving however He too wants us to learn a lesson in that by us limiting our time with that individual whose sinning against us, treat them as business, don’t engage in everyday conversations with this person. With our actions of us distancing ourselves, brought on by their continual sinning, hopefully they will feel the shame, repent & choose to sin no more, because their unresolved issues are causng them to lose their salvation.

As a child, a priest once said to my class “Forgive & forget, then forget what you forgave”

 

[spockrates]

Much later in the linked thread “Spockrates” and I got into discussing some of this. That is why I provided the link.

There appear to be levels of forgiveness and also there appears to be “internal” and “external” aspects to forgiveness.

Say a person “sins against me” and is not repentant.
Is it OK for me to harbor “nasty” thoughts about that person?
Is it OK for me to harbor 'ill will" toward that person?
Is it OK for me to “gloat” if that person falls on some misfortune?

Or rather is it my duty to pray for that persons repentance, not to me necessarily but to God?
Is it not my duty to Love that person, who is now my “enemy” even though I might not be able to continue in a relationship with them.

God Loves us even when we turn from Him. His forgiveness of us waits only on our response to that forgiveness.
It is as if we have a fight with our parents and storm out of the house. Dinner time approaches and our mother prepares a nice meal and sets out our plate. If we come home - dinner is already waiting for us. If we stay away - dinner is still there it’s just that we have not come home to eat it.

Thus it is that we should do all we can to Forgive internally and be prepared to quickly accept back anyone who has sinned against us once they have repented of their sin.
In this way we move closer to being “Perfect as your Heavenly Father is Perfect”.

Peace
James

Hi James. Good to run into you again!



I agree with you that forgiveness should be internal. But is that all it should be?

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

Forgiveness is a kind of love, I think. And Saint John the Apostle appears to be saying that true love is shown not just by our thoughts, but also by our actions. But I wonder to what extent should one’s actions demonstrate forgiveness? Is keeping oneself from gloating as far as forgiveness goes, or should it be much more than that?

 

[djeter]

A selection of readings on the topic of forgiveness here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/08/17/forgiveness/

Quotations from:

The Strangest Way – Fr. Robert Barron; The Concept of Sin – Josef Pieper; Jesus of Nazareth – Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI); and Gilead – Marilynne Robinson.

Also, a poem by Reinhold Niebuhr:

Nothing worth doing is completed in our lifetime,
Therefore, we are saved by hope.
Nothing true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history;
Therefore, we are saved by faith.
Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone.
Therefore, we are saved by love.
No virtuous act is quite a virtuous from the standpoint of our friend or foe as from our own;
Therefore, we are saved by the final form of love which is forgiveness.

dj

 

[djeter]

The Best book on Spirituality that I ever Read: “The Fulfillment of All Desire”
…

A long quote from Martin’s book (as well as others) in this post titled “Called to Holiness”
here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/06/22/called-to-holiness/

I heartily agree with you, an excellent book.

dj

 

[JRKH]

Hi James. Good to run into you again!



I agree with you that forgiveness should be internal. But is that all it should be?

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

Forgiveness is a kind of love, I think. And Saint John the Apostle appears to be saying that true love is shown not just by our thoughts, but also by our actions. But I wonder to what extent should one’s actions demonstrate forgiveness? Is keeping oneself from gloating as far as forgiveness goes, or should it be much more than that?

If we walk in God’s Love our thoughts and actions reflect that Love which includes forgiveness. Of course as you had I have already discussed there are many aspects to how that forgiveness is played out, in relationships and whether they can be restored, in “logical consequences” of unrepentant sin, and so forth.

Everything we do needs to Flow from Love for Christ tells us that "All of the Law and All of the Prophets are based on this. (Mt 23:36-40)

Peace
James
The point should always be though to remain in “Love”.

 

[spockrates]

If we walk in God’s Love our thoughts and actions reflect that Love which includes forgiveness. Of course as you had I have already discussed there are many aspects to how that forgiveness is played out, in relationships and whether they can be restored, in “logical consequences” of unrepentant sin, and so forth.

Everything we do needs to Flow from Love for Christ tells us that "All of the Law and All of the Prophets are based on this. (Mt 23:36-40)

Peace
James
The point should always be though to remain in “Love”.

Agreed! And as I recall, you were an exemplary example of forgiveness in forgiving me my many tedious questions about forgiveness! I suppose I should respect your forgiving nature and repent of my asking more questions about the subject! But if you’d care to discuss it more (perhaps with the help of others in this new thread) please let me know.

 

[EmeraldWings]

Thank you for responding…and for the link.

But you have misunderstood my question.

The first verses talk about forgiving without mention of remorse. Most if not all Christians would say we are to forgive even when the person is not sorry.

The second set of verses seem to say if the person is not sorry but continues to sin against you, you should “treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector”.

Most if not all Christians would still say “forgive”

So, what does it mean to “forgive”
and are we required to “forgive” the unrepentant sinner who continues to sin against us?
AND if so, what does it mean to forgive since we are told to treat that person as a “pagan”?

the first passage is meant, that we are always to forgive others in all things, because God forgives us in all things,
and then in the second, we are still to forgive, but our forgiveness does not mean that we should leave them be about their sins, because by letting it go without admonishing them, we would be going against our command to love our neighbor, by which we must work to save eachothers souls,
but when we admonish or instruct eachother, it should always be with love and kindness, and that could mean, depending on the person and on the circumstance, we may either admonish them with gentleness, or sternness, but always with carefulness,
and if they do not listen, we should still be kind, but they need to be dealt with in a certain way so that they know the degree of sin which they are committing, and we need to make sure that they do not go to communion, because while they are living in sin, it would be sacrilegious to do so(in the catholic church anyways…)
when we admonish sinners, it is first and foremost out of love for God, and secondly out of love for our neighbor for the salvation of their soul…but not for ourselves, we shouldn’t take the sins of others personally, and should not bear grudges in the first place.

ok so to break it down, we should always forgive in everything, because God would also forgive you in all things,
but by forgiveness, that does not mean to let the person you forgive to go about their sinful ways, because even to treat someone as a heretic(although without being nasty) can be an act of love.

although i would like to make one thing clear, this passage which says - “And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.”(from the douay rheims bible)
that is only referring to those of the Christian faith, and not those outside the faith,
people outside of the Christian faith we are told *“And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.” *Matthew 10:14

ok, i hope this helps, tc.

 

[OraLabora]

Being married I am used to hearing my wife say “but I forgive you” in a voice dripping with sarcasm, for some vague and alleged fault of character.

What she is really saying though is “I am accusing you of being a total jerk”.

That little amusing note aside, forgiveness does not mean you have to be friends with the person. Or even necessarily tell them to their face.

But if you do want to forgive someone close to you (friend, family member), sometimes a sign of love or kindness will mean a lot more than simply saying “I forgive you”, as saying “I forgive you” also implies an underlying accusation, especially if it’s for something the other person is not aware offended you. Even just continuing the relationship as if nothing happened, is a form of forgiveness.

Forgiveness really means putting the focus outwards rather than inwards, and is an act of humility. Forgiveness prevents you from becoming self-absorbed with the perceived slight.

 

[spockrates]

Being married I am used to hearing my wife say “but I forgive you” in a voice dripping with sarcasm, for some vague and alleged fault of character.

What she is really saying though is “I am accusing you of being a total jerk”.

Ora:

I’m married too, but my wife takes the more direct approach. She tells me quite plainly when I’m being a jerk! (I do appreciate her frankness, however. It keeps me from guessing what she is really thinking of me, and keeps me honest.)

That little amusing note aside, forgiveness does not mean you have to be friends with the person. Or even necessarily tell them to their face.

But if you do want to forgive someone close to you (friend, family member), sometimes a sign of love or kindness will mean a lot more than simply saying “I forgive you”, as saying “I forgive you” also implies an underlying accusation, especially if it’s for something the other person is not aware offended you. Even just continuing the relationship as if nothing happened, is a form of forgiveness.

Forgiveness really means putting the focus outwards rather than inwards, and is an act of humility. Forgiveness prevents you from becoming self-absorbed with the perceived slight.

I agree fully that forgiveness in thought and words that is not backed up by deeds is likely not the most loving way to forgive. After all, the disciple Jesus loved tells us this:

Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

It seems that to feel forgiving, and to say one forgives, is enough. So how does one forgive in such a way as to restore a relationship lost? My thought is that Jesus tells us how:

“So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

What do you think our Lord’s advice means?

 

[ready]

What does it mean to treat someone as though they were a heathen or a publican? Jesus was merciful to the publicans at Matthew’s house and even said he came for them to heal them and not for the righteous who have no need of a physician. Are we just supposed to treat them like they need help?

 

[JRKH]

What does it mean to treat someone as though they were a heathen or a publican? Jesus was merciful to the publicans at Matthew’s house and even said he came for them to heal them and not for the righteous who have no need of a physician. Are we just supposed to treat them like they need help?

My understanding of treating someone as a heathen or publican is what today we would call “shunning”, that is having nothing to do with them. Jesus gave similar instuction to the Twelve in Mt 10:14 where he told them:
And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.
In old covenent times, Shaking the dust from one’s feet was a sign of rejection - That everyone and averything in that place is “contaminated” and the righteous want nothing to do with that which is unrighteous.
The same with “shunning”. Under the Old covenent, “righteous Jews” would not associate with “heathens or publicans”.

You are certainly correct in that Jesus was kind and merciful to sinners of all stripes. But, as you see from the above, if those to whom he preached refused to hear him, or those he sent, he had no problem with leaving such ones in their sins. He did this in John 6 when the crowds left Him over the preaching of the Eucharist. He did not modify his teaching, rather He was saddened that they left.

Jesus wants us all to be merciful. But only to a point.
For instance, we must not compromise Church teaching in order to, “win souls” or to “accomodate” those struggling. To do so does nothing to help them and in fact causes harm to us.
Similarly in personal relations where forgiveness is needed, we must not compromise our beliefs in order to accomodate the one who has sinned against us. We must be merciful to them by not harboring ill will and by forgiving them in our hearts for any injury they caused us. We need not, and perhaps should not, continue a relationship with such a one, but we must stand ready to restore and welcome such a one when they recognize and repent of their sin against us.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

What does it mean to treat someone as though they were a heathen or a publican? Jesus was merciful to the publicans at Matthew’s house and even said he came for them to heal them and not for the righteous who have no need of a physician. Are we just supposed to treat them like they need help?

James might be right. However, don’t get the wrong idea that we should not associate at all with those who refuse to repent. Jesus, after all, spent much time associating with the hated tax collectors and other sinners.

While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and “sinners” came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?”

On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

(Matthew 9:10-13)

 

[ready]

As I understand things, we aren’t supposed to shun anyone but Christians who remain in majorly grievious sin despite our having fraternally corrected them (as in the case of the man who was in a relationship with his step mother mentioned in an an epistle) and this shunning would be for the sole sake of moving him to repentance. But with the heathens I believe we are supposed to love them and pray for them, even if we are only dealing with them on a businness level. But even when dealing with them we should treat them with dignity, kindness, mercy and patience as God treats us all with dignity, is merciful towards all, is kind and patient and lets his sun shine on the just and the unjust. He wants us to be just like Him and he shows his goodness to all, the just and unjust.

The Jews would shun heathens because that was what they were instructed to do in their religion, but with Chritianity we are called to love everyone including our enemies. If we are called to love even heathens, how can we feel right shunning them? What does shunning mean anyway? Maybe that’s why I don’t understand your posts…maybe I don’t know what shunning means.

No, I don’t hang out with pagans, but I pray for them and would try and treat them the same way I would Christians because God wants them and wants me to try and be a good example to them to help lead them to him. I couldn’t have good friends who were pagans because I am very orthodox and we wouldn’t have anything in common and they don’t follow Christ…but I don’t ignore them when I see them in my building.

I think what is meant by treating the Christian like a publican is something I need to understand further. I still don’t understand. Maybe it means to just love them and pray for them from a distance.

 

[ready]

I am shunning a man in my building because he was wearing a Playboy tee-shirt. I am a female and don’t think it safe to smile or mix with him probably out of prudence. Plus he gives me the creeps now. I’ll love him by praying for his soul from a distance though.

I, too, do shun pagans but I see I should still pray for their conversion, loving them from a distance. Maybe that’s the only way to love them besides giving them good example and admonishing them by a sign of open disapproval of their behavior like a disappointed look.

 

[JRKH]

James might be right. However, don’t get the wrong idea that we should not associate at all with those who refuse to repent. Jesus, after all, spent much time associating with the hated tax collectors and other sinners.

While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and “sinners” came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?”

On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

(Matthew 9:10-13)

Thanks Spock -
As I work to explain one thing I sometimes loose track of another.

Jesus did indeed mix with sinners, even those who felt “justified” and hated Him. Here I am refering to the Scribes and Pharasees who, the Gospels tell us, were always trying to “trip Him up” in some question or other.
Overall Jesus implication that we should “shun” needs to be seen within the context of the time and the training of the people. In the Old Covenent shunning was common. sometimes for physical reasons like shunning lepers and sometimes for sociological reasons, shunning heathens and “tax collectors”, sometimes for a combination of the two, shunning prostitutes.
In the New Covenent shunning is more problematic because the Good News is to be offered to all, Jew and Gentile, Righteous and Sinner alike so that All may have the opportunity to repent and be saved.
So in the New covenent we need to shun “beliefs” instead of people. That is we must witness to the truth of our beliefs to others who are unbelievers or wrong believers while being careul not to become infected by wrong beliefs ourselves.

Not sure if I explained that very well, It’s too early here, but I hope others will get my meaning.

Peace
James