Forgiveness

[retribution]

Hello,

I’m not a catholic, however I am a person with principles, and yes faults too. One of my weaknesses was trust, and in trusting someone I erred in my ways… I happen to believe in the universe, the way it works, and I mean in the way its constantly changing… flux… transformations… energy to matter… matter… to energy… Now I actually believe, that things we do to each other… emotionally, words etc… is energy…its the same thing and it has to go somewhere, it never gets destroyed. It manifests in other forms… Karma I suppose…

I have a problem you see, and even though I don’t buy into your religion, sorry that’s a strong word… I’m not convinced of it, I do believe in forgiveness. Its a beautiful thing, it transcends, it smashes barriers, it reconciles and it obliterates bitterness.

I’m 46 years old. The last two years of my life have been the most bitter times I’ve known. Up until then I was the most trusting, happy and approachable person you could know. Clearly this is something that she latched onto. Through the act of someone I trusted, I’ve been changed. Less of the self pity, lets get on to your faith.

You see, this person did a really bad thing to me, a serial habitual and compulsive liar, and in my trusting ways I believed her. Yes, ok you’re getting this second hand, so we won’t get personal. Anyway, as she was a catholic (practising), I took it as read that she had principles and trusted her implicity.

Without going into the nasty detail, I spent two years of my life trying to get this person to do the right thing and set things right, not just for my own benefit but mostly for hers, because of what she did. All this time, even though I could have brought the force of the law upon her and expose her, she still would not admit it and ask me to forgive her. So…

Explain to me why she can confess to her ‘god’ and ask for his forgivness and get it, but not ask for mine and leave me with bitterness in this limbo? Do have recourse to prevent this? What if I became a catholic, can ask god not to forgive her?

The whole act of forgiveness is stained by allowing this… is it not?

 

[surritter]

Even if she hasn’t asked for forgiveness, you can (and should) forgive her in your own heart. This is something that a lot of non-religious people can’t understand. Forgiveness is not merely a way to defuse a contentious relationship. It is an act of charity – which I should hope is deemed as essential even to folks that are non-religious.

Also, many people think that forgiveness is a device that is good only because it keeps the world from going into chaos. Yet there is something intrinsic about it that is good for the forgiver too. I suppose if you don’t have God as a reference for this idea, then it seems meaningless. (But at the same time, Catholics don’t believe in a God merely to set up a fake model to bounce forgiveness off of. But once you come to believe in God and feel His mercy, then other acts of forgiveness seems much more logical.)

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Hello,

I’m not a catholic…and yes faults too. I have a problem …don’t buy into your religion … I do believe in forgiveness. Its a beautiful thing, it transcends, it smashes barriers, it reconciles and it obliterates bitterness… most bitter times I’ve known…Less of the self pity…your faith… ask me to forgive her. So…

…‘god’ and ask for his forgivness and get it …What if I became a catholic…can ask god not to forgive her?

i have some people who have done me wrong as well, forgiveness is never easy, i pray for help with it alot. hating or being bitter about someone is like drinking poison expecting the other person to die. needless to say it can only hurt you. seeking retribution wont help it will only fester inside you until one day it claws out your very soul…

i think that like me, your only hope is G-d. what will you do with a lifetime of this bitterness? its like clutching a porcupine, and you know it, else you wouldnt be here.

so let me ask you, why dont you “buy into our religion”? how can i help you find G-d today?

 

[ricmat]

Hello,

I’m not a catholic, however I am a person with principles, and yes faults too. One of my weaknesses was trust, and in trusting someone I erred in my ways… I happen to believe in the universe, the way it works, and I mean in the way its constantly changing… flux… transformations… energy to matter… matter… to energy… Now I actually believe, that things we do to each other… emotionally, words etc… is energy…its the same thing and it has to go somewhere, it never gets destroyed. It manifests in other forms… Karma I suppose…

I have a problem you see, and even though I don’t buy into your religion, sorry that’s a strong word… I’m not convinced of it, I do believe in forgiveness. Its a beautiful thing, it transcends, it smashes barriers, it reconciles and it obliterates bitterness.

I’m 46 years old. The last two years of my life have been the most bitter times I’ve known. Up until then I was the most trusting, happy and approachable person you could know. Clearly this is something that she latched onto. Through the act of someone I trusted, I’ve been changed. Less of the self pity, lets get on to your faith.

You see, this person did a really bad thing to me, a serial habitual and compulsive liar, and in my trusting ways I believed her. Yes, ok you’re getting this second hand, so we won’t get personal. Anyway, as she was a catholic (practising), I took it as read that she had principles and trusted her implicity.

Without going into the nasty detail, I spent two years of my life trying to get this person to do the right thing and set things right, not just for my own benefit but mostly for hers, because of what she did. All this time, even though I could have brought the force of the law upon her and expose her, she still would not admit it and ask me to forgive her. So…

Explain to me why she can confess to her ‘god’ and ask for his forgivness and get it, but not ask for mine and leave me with bitterness in this limbo? Do have recourse to prevent this? What if I became a catholic, can ask god not to forgive her?

The whole act of forgiveness is stained by allowing this… is it not?

Hello Retribution,

You have a lot in your post above. I’m not the right person to answer all your questions, but I will refer you to the “Our Father” (Lord’s Prayer). In that, Catholics (and most Christians) say to God, “…and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us…”

In the prayer above, we ask for God’s forgiveness of our sins, on condition that we forgive others.

Sins against any humans are also sins against God. Because God is infinite, ANY sin against God is also infinite, and there is absolutely no way we could actually pay for that sin. But God will forgive those who truly repent.

The part of the sin which is against humans should also be forgiven. If God can forgive us an infinite offense, can we not forgive the relatively smaller offense against us?

It is right for you to forgive. It is not right for “the person” not to forgive.

Also - as part of the Our Father we sldo say “thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.” When we conform our wills to God’s will, and follow his commandments (in this case - to forgive), then somehow, some way, we actually change the world in a way similar to what you suggest in the first part of your post, making it a more perfect “Kingdom of God.” Beyond the obvious repairing of a single relationship, there is something more at work in terms of bringing all of creation back to the beginning, before suffering, before pain, before death.

 

[JRKH]

Hello,

I’m not a catholic, however I am a person with principles, and yes faults too. One of my weaknesses was trust, and in trusting someone I erred in my ways… I happen to believe in the universe, the way it works, and I mean in the way its constantly changing… flux… transformations… energy to matter… matter… to energy… Now I actually believe, that things we do to each other… emotionally, words etc… is energy…its the same thing and it has to go somewhere, it never gets destroyed. It manifests in other forms… Karma I suppose…

I have a problem you see, and even though I don’t buy into your religion, sorry that’s a strong word… I’m not convinced of it, I do believe in forgiveness. Its a beautiful thing, it transcends, it smashes barriers, it reconciles and it obliterates bitterness.

I’m 46 years old. The last two years of my life have been the most bitter times I’ve known. Up until then I was the most trusting, happy and approachable person you could know. Clearly this is something that she latched onto. Through the act of someone I trusted, I’ve been changed. Less of the self pity, lets get on to your faith.

You see, this person did a really bad thing to me, a serial habitual and compulsive liar, and in my trusting ways I believed her. Yes, ok you’re getting this second hand, so we won’t get personal. Anyway, as she was a catholic (practising), I took it as read that she had principles and trusted her implicity.

**Without going into the nasty detail, I spent two years of my life trying to get this person to do the right thing and set things right, not just for my own benefit but mostly for hers, because of what she did. All this time, even though I could have brought the force of the law upon her and expose her, she still would not admit it and ask me to forgive her. So…

Explain to me why she can confess to her ‘god’ and ask for his forgivness and get it, but not ask for mine and leave me with bitterness in this limbo? Do have recourse to prevent this? What if I became a catholic, can ask god not to forgive her?

The whole act of forgiveness is stained by allowing this… is it not?**

First of all allow me to say that I am sorry this person has hurt you so much. I am sorry that it has left you bitter and has caused you to become a less happy and trusting person in general. This is indeed a great loss and betrayal.

To your questions.
I am assuming, since confession is a private matter, that you don’t really know whether she has confessed her sin or not so I am answering in an abstract manner.
In order for her sins to be forgiven, she must not just confess them, but must repent of them. She must be contrite. It does not sound like she has done this since you say that, “she still would not admit it…”. If she has repented of them, her repentance is likely not complete since she will not seek to make amends. Thus we can see that, if she has repented, her contrition is not complete or perfect.
Therefore the “Act of forgiveness” is not stained, but rather has not been completed.

There can be many reasons why repentance and forgiveness can be blocked in such a case, but most often it means that both parties feel victimized, and so both parties are seeking some “repentance” from the other in order to forgive. I don’t say this is true in your case, since I don’t have sufficient detail to make an assessment.

The best you can do in this case is to let go of any hard feelings toward this person. Wish her well and, if possible, reduce or discontinue the relationship until such time as she is willing to admit her fault, that is to repent. In this way you have forgiven her and even stand ready to restore a relationship (if that is feasable) once she has repented of her sins against you.
But - Her repentance is not necessary for you to forgive. Remember that Christ forgave his executioners while he was hanging on the cross.

If you’d really like to get a detailed answer I suggest you speak to a priest about the matter. That way you might feel more comfortable giving details and be able to get a more complete answer.
I hope that she will soon recognize her error and make amends.

For further clarification Here are some references to the Catholic Church Catachism.
1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."
1459 **Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm **(e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penance.”

There is, of course, more in the catachism about the sacrament of Reconciliation, and if you follow the link above you can read it yourself. But the point is that, if the sinner remains unrepentant they cannot have their sins forgiven.

Peace
James

 

[mike52ad]

Holding a grudge, no matter how good the reason is leads to self destructive behavior and can lead to depression. My mother was killed due to the indifferece of a doctor who did not make an honest mistake, she just did not care about my mother. When mom died, I held a deep seated hatred in my heart for this person who killed her. I went into depression. Through the mercy of God, I came out of it after I forgave the doctor in my heart. Take it from one who knows, if you don’t forgive, you will end up hurting yourself. What is it we say in the Our Father…“forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.” Forgiveness is very important for our current life and for our next.

 

[Chris1112]

Explain to me why she can confess to her ‘god’ and ask for his forgivness and get it, but not ask for mine and leave me with bitterness in this limbo? Do have recourse to prevent this? What if I became a catholic, can ask god not to forgive her?

The whole act of forgiveness is stained by allowing this… is it not?

I see your point as a fellow non-Catholic. I really get it – my Catholic husband can be a jerk, ask God for forgiveness and I don’t even merit an apology – I call personal foul! However, you mention having principles so lets assume for the sake of argument you’re 100% right and she needs to ask your forgiveness but for whatever reason is refusing to do so.

First, her actions may or may not be an accurate representation of the faith she claims to represent – its easy but misleading to generalize a faith based off one person’s actions. If you became Catholic, sure, you could ask God not to forgive her… but I’m thinking if you really became Catholic, you’d find out that’s not how it works. The hardest part for you is to ditch the negative representation of Catholicism you have gotten from this girl and look at the faith from a neutral stance. She’s done enough damage, don’t let her destroy your perspective on this faith too.

Second, in this scenario, who is really being hurt? She apparently isn’t. The person left suffering once again is you… this time in anger and pain over this unjust way she is still treating you. So, I make the argument to forgive for the purpose of freeing yourself of the bitterness that you feel over this situation. You’re not saying that she is right by forgiving her without her taking responsibility for what she did to you. You’re not ‘letting her off the hook.’ You’re not saying she isn’t accountable for what she did. Instead…you forgive and let go of your personal need for justice so the damage she has caused to you will now stop and you can be free of this negative influence staining your life.

Not sure if you’re religious by your post, but you might be thinking, “But that’s not fair!!” I personally believe the only being with a perfect perspective on the issue of justice is God. We’re limited because we only see things from our perspective and without all the facts. When we stop trying to seek justice for ourself we are trusting God is just and knows far better than us how to handle the situation. As I said, you’re not ‘letting her off the hook,’ you’re just turning the matter in your heart over to someone with far better resources and judgement than yourself. I’m sure he knows she hasn’t apologized to you if its warranted and is on the case.

Perspectives of a non-Catholic though, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[JRKH]

I see your point as a fellow non-Catholic. I really get it – my Catholic husband can be a jerk, ask God for forgiveness and I don’t even merit an apology – I call personal foul! However, you mention having principles so lets assume for the sake of argument you’re 100% right and she needs to ask your forgiveness but for whatever reason is refusing to do so.

First, her actions may or may not be an accurate representation of the faith she claims to represent – its easy but misleading to generalize a faith based off one person’s actions. If you became Catholic, sure, you could ask God not to forgive her… but I’m thinking if you really became Catholic, you’d find out that’s not how it works. The hardest part for you is to ditch the negative representation of Catholicism you have gotten from this girl and look at the faith from a neutral stance. She’s done enough damage, don’t let her destroy your perspective on this faith too.

Second, in this scenario, who is really being hurt? She apparently isn’t. The person left suffering once again is you… this time in anger and pain over this unjust way she is still treating you. So, I make the argument to forgive for the purpose of freeing yourself of the bitterness that you feel over this situation. You’re not saying that she is right by forgiving her without her taking responsibility for what she did to you. You’re not ‘letting her off the hook.’ You’re not saying she isn’t accountable for what she did. Instead…you forgive and let go of your personal need for justice so the damage she has caused to you will now stop and you can be free of this negative influence staining your life.

Not sure if you’re religious by your post, but you might be thinking, “But that’s not fair!!” I personally believe the only being with a perfect perspective on the issue of justice is God. We’re limited because we only see things from our perspective and without all the facts. When we stop trying to seek justice for ourself we are trusting God is just and knows far better than us how to handle the situation. As I said, you’re not ‘letting her off the hook,’ you’re just turning the matter in your heart over to someone with far better resources and judgement than yourself. I’m sure he knows she hasn’t apologized to you if its warranted and is on the case.

Perspectives of a non-Catholic though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Chris - I believe you are more catholic than you realize.
You have said really hit the target above.
Good post my friend.

Peace
James

 

[AidanM32]

When you said "her “god” … there is only ONE GOD but i know you don’t believe … but just TRY maybe look into Religion, its the BEST thing that could happen in your Life.

Aidan.

 

[1WATCHER]

Hello,

I’m not a catholic, however I am a person with principles, and yes faults too. One of my weaknesses was trust, and in trusting someone I erred in my ways… I happen to believe in the universe, the way it works, and I mean in the way its constantly changing… flux… transformations… energy to matter… matter… to energy… Now I actually believe, that things we do to each other… emotionally, words etc… is energy…its the same thing and it has to go somewhere, it never gets destroyed. It manifests in other forms… Karma I suppose…

I have a problem you see, and even though I don’t buy into your religion, sorry that’s a strong word… I’m not convinced of it, I do believe in forgiveness. Its a beautiful thing, it transcends, it smashes barriers, it reconciles and it obliterates bitterness.

I’m 46 years old. The last two years of my life have been the most bitter times I’ve known. Up until then I was the most trusting, happy and approachable person you could know. Clearly this is something that she latched onto. Through the act of someone I trusted, I’ve been changed. Less of the self pity, lets get on to your faith.

Explain to me why she can confess to her ‘god’ and ask for his forgivness and get it, but not ask for mine and leave me with bitterness in this limbo? Do have recourse to prevent this? What if I became a catholic, can ask god not to forgive her?

The whole act of forgiveness is stained by allowing this… is it not?

Retribution,

Chris has stated a wonderful post, and your questioning of the catholic religion. You also have stated another key word and understanding of Faith, it is that exactly faith in which we turn to in our best of times and worst of times. The catholic church (religion) is an ever evolving teaching of God, and as the Holy Spirit move through all of us and to include the holy orders (pope,priest,nuns,lay people, and each of us) we continue to apply and learn newer greater things and at times can be hard for us to understand or acknowledge if full trust is not given to those who have and give their souls to serve God the church(religion)and search and ask for direction so that none of us fail to follow the commands of Faith. It is just as it has been said and known that "Faith is belief and trust that God forgives and wants all of his creatures (man and woman) to depend on his love and forgiviness knowing if each of us do we will be with him one day of his choosing when all of us will stand and be judged. I can not know or understand how your stand is on being an “reality” type of person as being an follower of God since my childhood and I truly can not comprehend the thought process of one being abstract from God. So what I believe is their is a God who gave his Son for the sins of the world and because of this price that was paid, and God took up his Son to be the one and only Judge of the world people from the begining of time until such time will return to separate those who have choosen him from those who did not and allow his Holy Spirit to minister to us that we not be apart from him Ever.

Would it not be a great thing for a way for you to live and learn the remaining days of your life so as not to be so comsumed by anguish of this world and by those who have pierced you Heart now and when it happens again have a new greater Trust in God that he alone can remove the most bitterest hate, revenge, anger, remorse, of your life and restore the Joy,Hope, and Faith that was to be intended for you as a person living and created for his pleasure to watch you once lost and then Be Found…come to him and be bathed in his Peace knowing once you truly learn of him you would want no other.

I find it hard to state an answer to a question because their is so much more involved when the question is of God, and at times even add more questions to the mix. I will Pray for You and petition through the Holy Mother and all the saints that you do Find Truth in the matters of God and recieve just as we have as followers of God and Jesus and that True Peace come to you and allow you to release the darkness that binds you to yourself with nowhere else to turn, otherwise you would have not been drawn to post here on this fourm seeking the answers to wounds that drip the joy of life you were intended to have.

Blessing and prayers for you brother…I offer for you the remaining days of my life.
May the Peace of the Lord be with you now and forever.
Dan aka 1WATCHER

 

[1WATCHER]

I must also add this, I am a creature of NEED and I seek mercy, I receive this only through God.

 

[djeter]

Hello,

I’m not a catholic, however I am a person with principles, and yes faults too. One of my weaknesses was trust, and in trusting someone I erred in my ways… I happen to believe in the universe, the way it works, and I mean in the way its constantly changing… flux… transformations… energy to matter… matter… to energy… Now I actually believe, that things we do to each other… emotionally, words etc… is energy…its the same thing and it has to go somewhere, it never gets destroyed. It manifests in other forms… Karma I suppose…

I have a problem you see, and even though I don’t buy into your religion, sorry that’s a strong word… I’m not convinced of it, I do believe in forgiveness. Its a beautiful thing, it transcends, it smashes barriers, it reconciles and it obliterates bitterness.

I’m 46 years old. The last two years of my life have been the most bitter times I’ve known. Up until then I was the most trusting, happy and approachable person you could know. Clearly this is something that she latched onto. Through the act of someone I trusted, I’ve been changed. Less of the self pity, lets get on to your faith.

You see, this person did a really bad thing to me, a serial habitual and compulsive liar, and in my trusting ways I believed her. Yes, ok you’re getting this second hand, so we won’t get personal. Anyway, as she was a catholic (practising), I took it as read that she had principles and trusted her implicity.

Without going into the nasty detail, I spent two years of my life trying to get this person to do the right thing and set things right, not just for my own benefit but mostly for hers, because of what she did. All this time, even though I could have brought the force of the law upon her and expose her, she still would not admit it and ask me to forgive her. So…

Explain to me why she can confess to her ‘god’ and ask for his forgivness and get it, but not ask for mine and leave me with bitterness in this limbo? Do have recourse to prevent this? What if I became a catholic, can ask god not to forgive her?

The whole act of forgiveness is stained by allowing this… is it not?

A selection of readings on the topic of forgiveness here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2…7/forgiveness/

Quotations from:

The Strangest Way – Fr. Robert Barron; The Concept of Sin – Josef Pieper; Jesus of Nazareth – Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI); and Gilead – Marilynne Robinson.

Also, a poem by Reinhold Niebuhr:

Nothing worth doing is completed in our lifetime,
Therefore, we are saved by hope.
Nothing true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history;
Therefore, we are saved by faith.
Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone.
Therefore, we are saved by love.
No virtuous act is quite a virtuous from the standpoint of our friend or foe as from our own;
Therefore, we are saved by the final form of love which is forgiveness.

dj

 

[DPMartin]

Hello,

I’m not a catholic, however I am a person with principles, and yes faults too. One of my weaknesses was trust, and in trusting someone I erred in my ways… I happen to believe in the universe, the way it works, and I mean in the way its constantly changing… flux… transformations… energy to matter… matter… to energy… Now I actually believe, that things we do to each other… emotionally, words etc… is energy…its the same thing and it has to go somewhere, it never gets destroyed. It manifests in other forms… Karma I suppose…

I have a problem you see, and even though I don’t buy into your religion, sorry that’s a strong word… I’m not convinced of it, I do believe in forgiveness. Its a beautiful thing, it transcends, it smashes barriers, it reconciles and it obliterates bitterness.

I’m 46 years old. The last two years of my life have been the most bitter times I’ve known. Up until then I was the most trusting, happy and approachable person you could know. Clearly this is something that she latched onto. Through the act of someone I trusted, I’ve been changed. Less of the self pity, lets get on to your faith.

You see, this person did a really bad thing to me, a serial habitual and compulsive liar, and in my trusting ways I believed her. Yes, ok you’re getting this second hand, so we won’t get personal. Anyway, as she was a catholic (practising), I took it as read that she had principles and trusted her implicity.

Without going into the nasty detail, I spent two years of my life trying to get this person to do the right thing and set things right, not just for my own benefit but mostly for hers, because of what she did. All this time, even though I could have brought the force of the law upon her and expose her, she still would not admit it and ask me to forgive her. So…

Explain to me why she can confess to her ‘god’ and ask for his forgivness and get it, but not ask for mine and leave me with bitterness in this limbo? Do have recourse to prevent this? What if I became a catholic, can ask god not to forgive her?

The whole act of forgiveness is stained by allowing this… is it not?

Consider, if you where to die tomorrow of what important’s would there be to that which you might not forgive, and has made you angry, bitter, maybe do to betrayal of trust, whether you forgive or not?

It is understood that through Jesus all is forgiven before God, but the “Our Father” says that we should be forgiven as we forgive trespasses against us. Hence the value to forgive no matter what the offence maybe. We are promised that if we hold nothing against another nothing will be held against us, not easy but so. Therefore the transgression against you is forgivable whether she seeks your forgiveness or not, therefore you may have Peace therein. Ask the Lord Jesus to forgive her, and He set the Peace of your forgiveness of her in your heart, and it shall be very well with you.

Consider the Book of Job, was Job a man of God? Or a man of circumstances? His Trust was in God, and God alone, which was never betrayed.

 

[pmains]

Anyway, as she was a catholic (practising), I took it as read that she had principles and trusted her implicity.
…
Explain to me why she can confess to her ‘god’ and ask for his forgivness and get it, but not ask for mine and leave me with bitterness in this limbo? Do have recourse to prevent this? What if I became a catholic, can ask god not to forgive her?

Yes, one would think that a professing Catholic would have principles and be trustworthy. But, if she generally a dishonest person, then it’s reasonable to belive that she is also dishonest about her faith. Going to Mass on Sunday doesn’t make you a faithful Catholic. She may have her own motivations for “practicing” Catholicism.

As far as confession goes, you could not ask God to not forgive her. If she has been granted absolution, then she has been forgiven. That doesn’t mean that she has been completely healed of whatever compelled her to act in such a way that you would be considering legal action. That may not happen until Purgatory.

 

[retribution]

Firstly, thank you for all your posts.

Apart from James and Chris, I think the majority of your responses are missing the mark and do not take the real responsibilities that we all have as human beings for our actions. I can’t just rely on the fact (from my perspective and reality!) that a omniprescent deity/being will decided whether a person is contrite and repentant, after all actions always speak louder than words. This is a cop out and I feel it is a failing of your faith.

I’m actually over the fundamental bitterness of what she did, however it annoys me that this person can take a route and not address her real responsibilities, especially when she is completely aware of what her actions did. This is the crux of it. I want to forgive her because in someway I still love her, I also want her to redeem her self. I don’t care whether she feels in the same way about me, its a healing process for both of us, but her disdain and disrespect of me and her responsibility is clear. For me to know she can waltz into a booth, confess, and be supposedly contrite, and then ask for forgiveness, is farcical in the extreme. Just plain wrong! It’s an abberation, and a fault, its an excuse for not addressing your actions.

When you punch a wall, most people think that it does nothing apart from hurt your fist, but the reality is that energy is absorbed and transformed, the wall absorbs it and its then passed on into the earth. If you punch the wall over and over gain it will start to crumble and some point maybe collapse, possibly onto the aggressor.

I agree, and now understand that to be bitter only destroys you…I think it was buddha who said, that anger is like holding a hot coal with the intent of hurting someone, but in the end it is you that actually gets burnt. I think in hindsight, she has been my greatest test, any normal person would have reacted in a far greater and destructive way, she has seen this and manipulated both me and the situation.

Our emotional actions are like this, as Jesus said himself, those who live by the sword, die by the sword. He could see that our actions always return in some way (good or bad). Everything is linked in the universe, and at somepoint what you do will will always have a consequence. However, I believe that addressing your actions, can affect what those consequences will be, and mitigate the effects.

I believe now that through the previous actions of my own, I have received this bad karma. When I really think about it, it’s quite easy to see. All self generated. I want her to see this and correct her ways and acknowledge this for her own benefit. Something she is not going to do when she can take the easy option and through rote pretend to be sorry.

She was very lucky she did what she did to a buddhist, because I feel the the outcome would have been very much worse if done to someone with another faith or belief.

 

[Chris1112]

I’m actually over the fundamental bitterness of what she did, however it annoys me that this person can take a route and not address her real responsibilities, especially when she is completely aware of what her actions did.

As a visual person, I love the hot coal example. I’ve never heard of that one, but I love the mantra/teaching by the Buddha that says a person is not punished for their anger, but punished by their anger.

Would it be accurate to say the issue of the thread is more of the disagreement in how you perceive Catholics dealing with responsibility for their actions… and how you view Buddhists as dealing with responsibility for their actions?

I think what you’re saying is that from your point of view, using this girl as an example, its doesn’t make a lot of sense because it doesn’t seem like her faith forces her to take any responsibility because she can be contrite and forgiven. Is that right, wrong, or missing it?

I have a question of my own now! Don’t worry, this isn’t a trap to get you to say anything we can have a theological argument about, I promise! When you say this was bad karma, that still doesn’t mean what she did was right, right? If bad karma has to come around because you earned/deserved it, am I correct in thinking that still doesn’t justify the negative action she committed? You don’t have to go into detail and I don’t want to derail your thread, I was just curious.

 

[Chris1112]

By the way, if you believe that karma comes around like you mentioned, its admirable that you strived hard to help her mend her erroneous ways… expressing a desire that she not suffer from her ‘sins’ (my word, I respect that its not yours) in the future.

There are plenty of differences, but its a very similar thought process to what many Catholics express. Catholics seem to be constantly focusing on trying to help others amend so they can avoid future pains (you probably saw a lot of this come through in people’s responses to you). While there are major differences between bad karma and purgatory/hell and all sorts of other things, there may be more things in common here than first meets the eye.

 

[retribution]

Hello Chris

First not so sure… just think the confession thing is wrong and never gives true resolution to the victims.

Second point yes!

Third point, yes absolutely, I was a compassionate person prior to what she did, I suppose I want it back, she took it away from me… Her actions are her own, she had a responsibility to see this and correct them.

She is my my bad karma for my previous actions… A true lesson.

 

[Chris1112]

Thanks Retribution! I hesitated to post but I didn’t want you to think I’d brushed your question off after you were kind enough to clarify. Honestly, I think they are really good questions and ones that someone such as myself, still in the process of learning more about Catholicism, needs to be asking too. I’ve never been to confession and won’t go for another year due to the length of the conversion process. I can speculate about if it makes sense from your argument, but I really don’t know and shouldn’t speculate when its such a serious matter to you.

I wish I had more to give, my friend, you seem like a very compassionate person and I do respect your religious views though I may not understand/agree with them. If nothing else, thank you for bringing these questions up. It may have not been something I would have questioned myself but I know I will only benefit from pursuing the answer. I’m crossing my fingers that another forum member can provide some insight.

 

[AidanM32]

I went to confession last week … but within i feel i still have them sins there!